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I'm in no place to condemn demographics, and this sounds so woo it's making me cringe, but cellphones are bad and make you... not present. Like they can be good, it's how we use them of course, but even before the current state of smart phones and social media you could feel it. I've had relationships fall apart because I wasn't able to answer texts for most of the day (working outside all day in a no service area). Some people in my life will do something, with a TV show on, and then also be on their phones. What the hell? Three things- and the fact that one may be of any importance or utility is the opposite of a defense. Drink and smoke yourself into a stupor like the rest of us you freaks! I understand what HYL was saying. I respect teachers, I know one and how hard their jobs are, how they pay out of pocket to benefit their classroom, how they care so much and how that gets exploited. But with school shootings a normal occurrence, with an education system it's hard to have faith in, ceding rights to be able to communicate directly with your child could certainly be a hard sell. It's not the teachers faults, and they're the ones who are going to be expected to confiscate and be responsible for these devices as well. Saying the solution is obvious isn't worth much when people WILL have predictable and not unreasonable objections (you'll notice I'm not saying we can't discuss such things, we're doing it now). Our technology and way of life is running far ahead of our ability to manage it responsibly. Whether through industry greed or consumer demand, the open goal and result is to suck you and everybody around you into the new way. As another poster pointed out, needing smartphones to participate in schooling or finding/working a job. If I need a smartphone to learn and work, nationalize the fuckers! I think building yourself into the world we've created is the problem. People still exist outside of this, we just don't think they matter. Things will no doubt get bad in the face of a real collapse, and I laugh at doomsday pepper fantasy maniacs and all that, but not relying on our norms and structures is a form of building strength and community beneath the world ending machine we've achieved. And fwiw, when my high school teacher heard my flip-phone buzz in my pocket and demanded it, I welcomed them to try to take it. They did not. OK it was probably more a mumbled "I'm pretty sure you can't", but man i wouldn't have given in even if they expelled me. I don't wish that situation on teachers or kids with chips on their shoulders. Sorry don't have an answer either, this one is more discussion than debate.
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Nov 29, 2023 00:26
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BRJurgis posted:Our technology and way of life is running far ahead of our ability to manage it responsibly I own a copy of Toffler's Future Shock. The book is 53 years old, I've never read it. Wonder if it has any novel insights into our current age?
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Nov 29, 2023 00:29
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Blue Footed Booby posted:I figure you're probably talking about the kind of job and not the precise number on the paycheck
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Nov 29, 2023 00:40
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BRJurgis posted:OK it was probably more a mumbled "I'm pretty sure you can't", but man i wouldn't have given in even if they expelled me. I don't wish that situation on teachers or kids with chips on their shoulders. Last year, a colleague of mine was threatened with death by a student whose phone he confiscated. I'm certainly not getting paid enough to care to fight with teenagers about their phones. And as someone above noted, what is a teacher going to do? Interrupt the entire class to have a big showdown with some surly burnout kid who wants to rot their brain on TikTok? Multiple times per day for the entire year? No thanks. One thing that a lot of the pro-phone advocates miss, too, is that the urban public schools no longer really have any significant disciplinary tools. Expelling is nearly impossible for anything short of felony criminal activity. Suspension doesn't really happen any more in most places. Administration in most schools exists purely to manipulate metrics and document teacher performance. Even if the administration is involved in disciplinary activity, they're trying to stop fights and rampant drug use. Suburban public schools are a bit different, but parental involvement and adherence to middle-class norms that typically come with being able to afford to live in the suburbs resolves a lot of problems by itself.
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Nov 29, 2023 01:19
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BRJurgis posted:
To this part of me wants to say that it’s been the case probably since agriculture and definitely since writing, and it’s probably why we’ve never seen any sign of another civilization anywhere in the universe. But I don’t think it’s inevitable that we bury ourselves with our ingenuity. The printing press, the steam engine, television all hosed us up in ways that have lasting effects—we are worse off in some ways because of all of them—but as we’ve lived with them we have found a more proper place for them and can cope and go on, even as we are misinformed, worked to death, and have destroyed our capacity for reflection and deep attention. We haven’t cracked how to avoid killing the planet, but some of us might outlast global warming.
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Nov 29, 2023 01:28
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litany of gulps posted:Last year, a colleague of mine was threatened with death by a student whose phone he confiscated. I'm certainly not getting paid enough to care to fight with teenagers about their phones. And as someone above noted, what is a teacher going to do? Interrupt the entire class to have a big showdown with some surly burnout kid who wants to rot their brain on TikTok? Multiple times per day for the entire year? No thanks. Is the response to a death threat from a student really to just give them what they want and do nothing else about it?
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Nov 29, 2023 01:35
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Is the response to a death threat from a student really to just give them what they want and do nothing else about it? Speaking generally and not to that poster’s specific story but: you’d be surprised! Ran into a former teaching colleague last month who quit about two years after I did because a kid punched him in class and was back in class the next day. My colleague turned in his keys and badge that day.
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Nov 29, 2023 01:53
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Is the response to a death threat from a student really to just give them what they want and do nothing else about it? What do you think the response should be? In a public school system ruled by politicians whose children don't attend those schools, governed by technocrats who observe metrics from off-site, and managed by bureaucrats who can only hope to stay in place for more than a year or two if they sufficiently manipulate those metrics in order to paint themselves in a favorable light, what do you do with an aggressive child? My school had a year with zero disciplinary actions on record. According to the administration, it was because we didn't have any disciplinary problems. I'm sure that looked and sounded good to the people above. If they come by for a planned and scheduled visit and see a dog-and-pony show, well that shows that these metrics match with a form of reality that allows the farce to continue. It's all horseshit, but the alternatives seem to actually be worse somehow. But really, what are the schools supposed to do? No Child Left Behind style policies are everywhere. Drop out rates have plummeted because the schools are incentivized to keep every kid attending at any cost. Graduation rates are at all time highs because the schools are incentivized to graduate everyone. Disciplinary policies don't exist because the schools are incentivized to cover up disciplinary problems in order to juice their metrics.
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Nov 29, 2023 01:55
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Dubar posted:Not everyone sees their current economic situation as positive, and "actually, the economy is good" is not a very inspiring plan moving forward, no matter how many charts you show people THis. I was listening to the NPR 6pm economy segment this evening and the "expert" they had on was equally as baffled about the disparity between the numbers and the polling, like some on this thread touched on. But, to me, it seems patently obvious and that is that our economy, however you want to present it in a chart like you said, is terrifyingly insufficient at securing basic needs and the problem is that people, by and large, are being soaked by these essential things. Education, healthcare, child care, food, utilities, transportation, housing...these are the areas that the vast majority of Americans are spending most of their money on and/or worried about. Sure, unemployment numbers are good, GDP is up, stock market good, etc, etc but NONE of that means poo poo when most people are staring down the reality of not being able to afford college, never being able to buy a home, retirement being a pipe dream and are all one major trip to the ER away from insolvency or maxing out their credit. THis is the reality I live with along with most people I know; even ones WITH money and good jobs. And it always gets me how these economic news reports can remain confused why consumer spending is up despite inflation this and debt that and it seems to me that "spending" is a lovely (or at least imperfect) way to measure "consumer confidence". Motherfuckers, consumer spending is up because it has to be. I buy fewer groceries than I used to and shop at budget stores more often these days but still have higher food costs monthly. I spend more on things because they're more expensive even though I buy fewer items. ... E: Also, regarding cell phones in class rooms: just collect them in a basket before class and distribute them back afterwards. Believe me, if there's an emergency, everyone will know - including the kids and their parents BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 02:00
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Little if any of that is something that changed in the last three years. It's possible that only now people are realizing ' i guess it was always poo poo', but odd if so.
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Nov 29, 2023 02:04
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Little if any of that is something that changed in the last three years. It's possible that only now people are realizing ' i guess it was always poo poo', but odd if so. Is this a joke or are you really asking if something happened three years ago that completely hosed up the kids and schools?
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Nov 29, 2023 02:15
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Yeah, I feel like things are actually more expensive now and that terms for loans, interest rates, etc are measurably worse than in 2020.
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Nov 29, 2023 02:24
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BiggerBoat posted:THis. Yeah, I dunno if this was covered earlier, but the NYT ran a poll earlier, sourcing from a wapo guy that I think solves that discrepency. if you ask people with a locked in cheap mortgage / paid off house, then things are looking great. Anyone not an old honky however.... https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1729518490527080573 
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Nov 29, 2023 02:26
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Again, doomposting aside, individual anecdotes about how terrible schools are are neither representative nor set in stone. Policies can be implemented and change can occur.
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Nov 29, 2023 02:41
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BiggerBoat posted:I was listening to the NPR 6pm economy segment this evening and the "expert" they had on was equally as baffled about the disparity between the numbers and the polling, like some on this thread touched on. But, to me, it seems patently obvious and that is that our economy, however you want to present it in a chart like you said, is terrifyingly insufficient at securing basic needs and the problem is that people, by and large, are being soaked by these essential things. None of that was any better in 2019. The point of "the numbers don't match the polling" is that we can actually observe how successful the average person is at securing basic needs, and it has improved (note "has improved" and "is now completely successful" are different concepts) without a corresponding change in public opinion.
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Nov 29, 2023 02:44
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Discendo Vox posted:Again, doomposting aside, individual anecdotes about how terrible schools are are neither representative nor set in stone. Policies can be implemented and change can occur. Do you feel as though the individual anecdotes do not align with reality? What was it, a few weeks ago that a Florida school district made national news for attempting to ban cell phone usage by students and faced massive parent backlash? Why do you figure the attempt to implement a district wide cell phone restriction policy makes national news? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/31/...ween%20classes.
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Nov 29, 2023 02:48
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NPR also said that Black Friday and Cyber Monday sells were normal or recovering better than expected. so people with economic "anxiety" are still doing their capitalist consumer duty to buy crap.
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Nov 29, 2023 02:49
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litany of gulps posted:Do you feel as though the individual anecdotes do not align with reality? What was it, a few weeks ago that a Florida school district made national news for attempting to ban cell phone usage by students and faced massive parent backlash? Why do you figure the attempt to implement a district wide cell phone restriction policy makes national news? Your response to the already established “anecdotes are not data, futility claims aren’t valid, US education is highly variable between locations, and there are plenty of examples of restriction policies working” is…another anecdote? From Orange County, FL? On a ban that is in effect and is working well according to most interviewed? To pursue a futility claim?
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Nov 29, 2023 02:56
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Is the response to a death threat from a student really to just give them what they want and do nothing else about it?
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Nov 29, 2023 03:01
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litany of gulps posted:Is this a joke or are you really asking if something happened three years ago that completely hosed up the kids and schools? Sorry, I'm talking about the economy <-> polling thing.
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Nov 29, 2023 03:13
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litany of gulps posted:Last year, a colleague of mine was threatened with death by a student whose phone he confiscated. I'm certainly not getting paid enough to care to fight with teenagers about their phones. And as someone above noted, what is a teacher going to do? Interrupt the entire class to have a big showdown with some surly burnout kid who wants to rot their brain on TikTok? Multiple times per day for the entire year? No thanks. It is time to arm school teachers. I don’t think little Johnny will be quite so rude to Mrs Johnson when she’s got a 10mm strapped to her hip  Also likely to improve the behavior of unruly parents and even increase the response times to school shootings! Why let our school teachers be sitting ducks for the next wackadoodle hopped up on psych meds? Arm and train them to respond to mass shooter scenarios, and marvel at the improvement in your metrics.
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Nov 29, 2023 03:16
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BiggerBoat posted:THis. All of this would make sense if the experts were stupid and had no idea what they're talking about. Unfortunately, they aren't. They're already accounting for all the things you're accusing them of not accounting for. For example, when they say that consumer spending is up, they don't just mean "people are spending more dollars on stuff". They actually do look at what people are specifically spending money on, either by category of goods or by category of store. The reason the experts were saying that the rising consumer spending reflected confidence in the economy is because the rising spending was being spent on things like electronics, vacations, new cars, and other poo poo you wouldn't expect people to be splurging on in tough times. People being unable to buy houses and being in danger of being bankrupted by medical debt are both real issues, but neither of those things started in the 2020s. So when economists are wondering why economic confidence dropped in the 2020s, those things are clearly not direct causes of the drop.
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Nov 29, 2023 03:17
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Discendo Vox posted:Your response to the already established “anecdotes are not data, futility claims aren’t valid, US education is highly variable between locations, and there are plenty of examples of restriction policies working” is…another anecdote? From Orange County, FL? On a ban that is in effect and is working well according to most interviewed? To pursue a futility claim? Huh, and here I thought that the entire conversation was centered around a study showing data that cell phones were damaging to student achievement in the United States. Anecdotes are supporting evidence, not the foundation of the conversation. Nobody is making futility claims other than the pro-cell phone individuals who want no change to the existing destructive system. Everyone else is saying the problem extends beyond cell phone policy, which is blatantly obvious to even a child. Anecdotes expand on these claims to demonstrate the extent of these problems. Everyone acknowledges that US education is highly variable. The "anecdote" (a NYT article) you are sarcastically challenging is an example of how unusual these actual bans are and how significantly they are taken. What's your point, dude? The Top G posted:It is time to arm school teachers. I don’t think little Johnny will be quite so rude to Mrs Johnson when she’s got a 10mm strapped to her hip My man, if you want another ANECDOTE (WOMP WOMP), today we were required to attach suicide hotline stickers to every one of our students' ID badges. The teachers didn't get any for their own badges, SAD. litany of gulps fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 03:22
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Fining parents for their child's infractions etc would probably help a lot but it would disproportionately impact low income households that do not need another thing on their plate. Ultimately most of the issues are because consequences no longer exist and schools refuse to stand up to parents. Fix those two things and we'd see significant improvement. Issue being is I don't see many ways to do it that would actually work.
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Nov 29, 2023 03:25
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The way we talked to each other in class was passing notes to each other and if the teacher caught us they read the note out loud to embarrass us or whatever.
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Nov 29, 2023 03:27
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The parent backlash against schools banning cellphones/smart phones is because they're all hopelessly addicted to them too. I mean I work in at a manufacturing plant and when I'm out on the shop floor, half the CNC machine operators at any given time are on their phones. A majority of my coworkers in the office prop their phones up when they aren't using them, watching TV shows and movies or streaming Twitch while working, how can they possibly be giving their full attention to what they're supposed to be working on? I feel like my productivity suffers even when I'm listening to podcasts at work, much less streaming poo poo that requires visual processing, listening and has a chat to distract you. I kind of feel like that is part of the reason why I'm seen as good at my job, I'm actually focused on my what I'm doing. Those studies Main Painframe posted make me want to leave my phone in my car though, because the constant notifications (that I turn off and mysteriously return after application updates) do wind up distracting me, along with doom scrolling through twitter and poo poo. I don't have kids though or face circumstances where people would need to get a hold of me in a less than 2 hour time frame though. Smartphones and social media (because they are inextricably linked and rely on each other for their ubiquitousness) are uniquely designed as far as media consumption devices go to demand your attention and manipulate you to use them as much as possible. If adults suffer the effects of this, I feel like children are only going to be even worse off growing up in an environment like this. I can't help but think that down the line that social media will be regulated like cars or tobacco/alcohol/weed but that doesn't really solve the whole smartphone thing. I certainly don't envy anyone who has to be a parent these days!
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Nov 29, 2023 03:34
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2023/11/28/new-student-loan-forgiveness-application-for-borrowers-with-medical-issues-goes-live/amp/ Process revamp of student loan forgiveness for disabled borrowers, as part of the Biden administration massive overhaul to free many, many, many people from student debt. This part seems to be both narrow-ish and nerdy (it's just making the application process easier) and very important (people often correctly point out that a labyrinthine process to receive benefits reduces the number of people who get those benefits and hurts their quality of life).
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Nov 29, 2023 07:11
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Are you getting paid more for being more focused on your job role, because if not then your colleagues are doing less work and getting paid the same as you, so why should they want to change it? If you work is vital like healthcare or something that can seriously mess up someone's life than sure pay attention, but it's not really weird to think why people would rather doss about on their phones than work.
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Nov 29, 2023 07:19
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Yeah so as I was thinking about the whole phones in school things the thought that kept coming up to me is that there's pretty much no reason for a kid to have a phone in a GOOD school but if you in a BAD school, everyone having cellphones has to function equivalent to bodycams on cops, like that the footage is what is absolutely loving required for incidents to get the attention they need like check out this poo poo: it was hate crime day in KC over here and girl gets a broken nose and a five day suspension for her trouble for standing up to white kids calling black kids slaves and niggers in school. it was filmed, so now it is "the incident" forcing the district on the back foot where they're assuring people "we take things like this seriously" but obviously if things degraded to this point, you loving weren't. poo poo getting filmed is the only thing bringing these issues to account, period, and now the news is interviewing kids who are talking about how they hadn't been feeling safe for ages and administration would do fuckall before which is how you get to this point in the first place https://kansascitydefender.com/justice/shawnee-mission-east-racial-assault-response/ also god help me but i can't watch videos like this without getting just physically angry. like i'm always just furious watching this happen to kids, like i'm praying that the video ends with someone putting that boy's head teeth-first halfway through a locker and holding him there till the sro shows up and arrests him, but we all know it doesn't happen like that
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Nov 29, 2023 09:12
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Phone distractions are one thing. Chronic absenteeism has doubled since Covid and there’s nothing you can do for kids who aren’t even there. The indoctrination of all day work to prep kids for factory life was shattered with Covid lockdowns. The generation is going to be full hustle culture and not fit into societal norms. Strange times ahead, but it’ll probably be a generation of low skilled workers and I guess society won’t mind more of that. I suspect scams and pyramids are going to get even worse than they did for boomers. The advancement of the GUI was a blessing and a curse. Studies show that kids advancing on tablet apps are just learning to press buttons and game the system, not practicing critical thought. Many of the studies showing benefit don’t actually test thought patterns afterwards, just whether they learned to game the system or not. You can reference studies all day, but the methods in psychology are notoriously poo poo so nothing can ever be deciphered and anyone can cherry pick the studies they want to prove their point. Everything is a catered environment where there’s no critical thinking, no discussion, black and white reasoning, and we act surprised that’s how people act as adults now too. Any time for discussion is taking precious moments away from servicing you with an advertisement. They need to devices taken away or they can’t think. They need the intuitive GUI or they can’t function. Look what happens here when Twitter switched to x and broken links, posters freaked out and blamed each other. Parents demanding they keep devices with them are the worst. Parents think they have authority over their children - wait until they find out what one bogus call to CPS can do to them and these imaginary rights. I hear CPS folks complain about teachers making low effort claims all the time, but what other option do the teachers have that keeps them anonymous? We took libraries and replaced them with commercialized search engines. There’s no decoupling that now. How far are we from Starbucks offering gentleman’s services? The googles and bings of the world need to be destroyed. With that stranglehold how will mere humans break free? Look what 2000 years of burning all books other than the One did? Now techbros have the reigns. And they don’t want your kids off of the devices, they want them clueless on how to function as an adult any other way.
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Nov 29, 2023 12:42
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Morrow posted:Alexander Graham Bell is responsible, I think. It's just part of the modern existence. Everything wrong circles back to being able to talk to each other immediately and share our opinions on the internet without getting bullied for our love of anthro furry hentai. Blame it on Brazil. Bell was in a dingy, remote booth at the World Fair, mostly ignored, when brazilian emperor Pedro II walked by and recognised him from an event for deaf-mute education the day before. Pedro II was the first reigning monarch to ever visit the USA, so he had a considerable tail of journalists and reporters. Him stopping by Bell's booth and trying out his invention was a huge media boost. So yeah, our bad, guys.
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Nov 29, 2023 13:37
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Main Paineframe posted:All of this would make sense if the experts were stupid and had no idea what they're talking about. Unfortunately, they aren't. They're already accounting for all the things you're accusing them of not accounting for. The costs of rent and food have had a staggering increase since 2020 and while median wages might have increased, the people on the lower end of the pay scale are far more hosed than they were before
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Nov 29, 2023 13:55
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Dubar posted:The costs of rent and food have had a staggering increase since 2020 and while median wages might have increased, the people on the lower end of the pay scale are far more hosed than they were before There have been shortages of workers, which puts them in a position to demand better pay, and they change jobs more often, so less people are dealing with crap like getting a 3% "merit increase" in a year where inflation is 9%. If you try to stiff somebody they can just walk.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:16
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Charliegrs posted:Since we are on the topic of phones I've been reading a lot of articles lately about how the youngest generation of workers, so like late zoomers I guess? Are terrible at actual computer knowledge. Like just as bad as boomers. And it's having a real effect on their ability to work in offices where the basic computer knowledge is needed. Like apparently these kids don't know how to operate a mouse and keyboard, don't know how to navigate file structures or other basic windows functions, don't know how to print etc. Because they grew up with smartphones and tablets and that whole ecosystem and many households just don't have an actual PC now. Worked in IT for years, a lot of it with younger workers, can absolutely loving confirm. Seems to have started in around 2010-2015. And it’s not just that they’re completely clueless; they literally need a script and step by step instructions and if anything happens that’s unexpected or out of the ordinary they either punt it up to a more experienced person or shut down and completely are at a loss. Like absolutely no capability or interest in troubleshooting or trying to figure it out on their own, it’s just not working so nothing you can do about it, give up. Like won’t even google that poo poo. It’s honestly kind of scary how helpless and incurious they are. And these are not like high school fast food workers either they’re college graduates.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:22
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Boris Galerkin posted:The way we talked to each other in class was passing notes to each other and if the teacher caught us they read the note out loud to embarrass us or whatever. This happened when I was a kid too (I'm in my 40s). I am pretty sure if a teacher read a "Do you like me? Y/N" note out loud in class these days they'd get fired.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:24
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Josef bugman posted:Are you getting paid more for being more focused on your job role, because if not then your colleagues are doing less work and getting paid the same as you, so why should they want to change it? If you work is vital like healthcare or something that can seriously mess up someone's life than sure pay attention, but it's not really weird to think why people would rather doss about on their phones than work. IDK, this middle america, most people don't discuss their wages at work. I would guess I make more than the rest of my peers but by how much I couldn't tell you. When I was in supply chain I was paid quite a bit more than anyone else with my job title but my responsibilities were also were wider because of my skillset. We also make airplane parts so I think it's pretty important for people to pay attention to things personally! E: Misunderstood posted:The lowest wage workers have actually seen the highest income gains since the pandemic. While inflation outpaced wages for most groups in 2022, on average, low wage workers ended up better off than they were before. If your rent goes up 25% and your pay goes up 10% and rent was already half your paycheck you're going to end up further behind than you were before. There are a lot of low end apartments in my city that used to rent for around $600/month here that are now $700-$750 a month. Same thing for rental housing, my rent went up 22% over the course of 2 years and while I could absorb the blow, it basically wiped out the raise I got last year. rscott fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 14:27
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Oracle posted:Worked in IT for years, a lot of it with younger workers, can absolutely loving confirm. Seems to have started in around 2010-2015. And it’s not just that they’re completely clueless; they literally need a script and step by step instructions and if anything happens that’s unexpected or out of the ordinary they either punt it up to a more experienced person or shut down and completely are at a loss. Like absolutely no capability or interest in troubleshooting or trying to figure it out on their own, it’s just not working so nothing you can do about it, give up. Like won’t even google that poo poo. It’s honestly kind of scary how helpless and incurious they are. And these are not like high school fast food workers either they’re college graduates.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:33
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FlamingLiberal posted:This is part of why Gen Z is having issues with phishing scams and other similar scams at a similar rate as Boomers I work in Software for banks and credit unions and it is TERRIFYING how often my younger employees fall for our phishing tests the company does.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:43
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I make almost $21 per hour answering phones for the IRS and it costs me that much to buy lunch meat, cheese, and bread.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:43
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Medullah posted:I work in Software for banks and credit unions and it is TERRIFYING how often my younger employees fall for our phishing tests the company does.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:50
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