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oh hey, j novel club picked up the otome heroine’s fight for survival. looking forward to that one, though I’ve read a bunch of it in fan translation and I’m not sure how much of the awkwardness was the fan translation and how much was the actual prose. the strong point of the work is the merciless main character and the generally tense, violent atmosphere. but then I’m a sucker for that sort of “the mc is serious about killing in a way everyone else isn’t” thing, I enjoyed it in tsukihime too
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Nov 19, 2023 03:17
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nrook posted:oh hey, j novel club picked up the otome heroine’s fight for survival. looking forward to that one, though I’ve read a bunch of it in fan translation and I’m not sure how much of the awkwardness was the fan translation and how much was the actual prose. the strong point of the work is the merciless main character and the generally tense, violent atmosphere. but then I’m a sucker for that sort of “the mc is serious about killing in a way everyone else isn’t” thing, I enjoyed it in tsukihime too That has a manga too.
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Nov 19, 2023 03:58
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Yinlock posted:tbf it's his only means of self-defense and the one time he tried holding back was somehow even more horrifying Yeah, I'm not blaming him for it, other than maybe the fact that he hasn't put much effort into exploring the non-lethal applications of his power - which we know exist, but are apparently just tricky for him to use. I bet that, with the right mindset, he could do something like "kill" a person's gun instead of the person who's wielding it. We know his power can work in more abstract ways (since it's more about "the end" in a philosophical sense than biological death).
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Nov 20, 2023 00:21
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Posting it here because I don't read the Light Novels so I have no idea if it gets gross later on but it'll work as an example at least. https://mangadex.org/title/43ff67bf...ing-otaku-being I was reading this and it made me interested in if anyone has any good recommendations like it. The main point being the 'Terrible reputation with everyone' and then working to repair that. Villains Are Destined to Die/ Death Is the Only Ending for the Villainess Is the only one I can think of.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:36
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Almost all the possession webtoons are "I'm in the body of this horrible noble and no one likes me" then they got to fix it or die.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:46
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Guyver posted:Almost all the possession webtoons are "I'm in the body of this horrible noble and no one likes me" then they got to fix it or die. A lot of them are either "I possessed the body of someone who will become terrible so I'll be nice before everyone starts hating me" or "I possessed a horrible noble but I got shipped off somewhere no one knows me". Spending a lot of time trying to fix already broken relationships isn't that common.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:19
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Also slapping the first servant who attempts to mess with them after the awakening.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:23
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LibrarianCroaker posted:A lot of them are either "I possessed the body of someone who will become terrible so I'll be nice before everyone starts hating me" or "I possessed a horrible noble but I got shipped off somewhere no one knows me". Spending a lot of time trying to fix already broken relationships isn't that common. I'm really just going off what I've seen on Asura most of which they stick around. Like Heavenly Demon cant Live a Normal Life and Estate Developer.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:26
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After digging through things I've read for a while, here's a couple Post Possession Damage Control. "only" 30ish chapters so far, and I haven't read the source, so I don't know where it's going, but so far it fits the bill. the villainess's days are numbered may not have enough focus on fixing things, but the FL does put some work into that while she's trying to find out who murdered the villainess.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:27
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maltesh posted:Also slapping the first servant who attempts to mess with them after the awakening. You must assert dominance or the maids will walk all over you, for some reason. Anyway, another example where they are stuck with their bad reputation is Kill the Villainess. And that one where she wows them all with calculus, forgot the name.
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Nov 29, 2023 00:08
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I flipped through the first chapter of The First Night With The Duke, where a college student becomes an extra in the vn she likes, only to get drunk and end up sleeping with the main romance target. Seemed fine
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Nov 29, 2023 00:14
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Clarste posted:And that one where she wows them all with calculus, forgot the name. The Perks of Being a Villainess
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Nov 29, 2023 00:28
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RareAcumen posted:Posting it here because I don't read the Light Novels so I have no idea if it gets gross later on but it'll work as an example at least. Trash of the Counts Family is in a heartful spot for me. i read the LN, the webtoon is serviceable
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Nov 29, 2023 02:19
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RareAcumen posted:Posting it here because I don't read the Light Novels so I have no idea if it gets gross later on but it'll work as an example at least. my favorite of these by a long shot is How to Win my Husband Over. it has some very dark themes, as the content warnings on the first chapter imply, but i really like the subtlety that it tackles them with. i like that both the protagonist and the male lead have serious problems they're working through, and while they're not great at communicating with each other, they're able to recognize the pain in each other and grow closer from it. it starts out a bit lurid but it gets really, really good
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Nov 29, 2023 07:14
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For a genre subversion there's This Isekai Maid Is Forming A Union in which a serially-reincarnated maid tries to keep her fellow servants safe from all the slap-happy nobles. She's also read the webnovels the isekai 'heroines' are actually from, not the novel-within-a-novel they've reincarnated into.
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Nov 29, 2023 09:51
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Venuz Patrol posted:my favorite of these by a long shot is How to Win my Husband Over. it has some very dark themes, as the content warnings on the first chapter imply, but i really like the subtlety that it tackles them with. i like that both the protagonist and the male lead have serious problems they're working through, and while they're not great at communicating with each other, they're able to recognize the pain in each other and grow closer from it. it starts out a bit lurid but it gets really, really good While that's a good series, I wouldn't say it's an example of what they were asking for because her reputation is quite explicitly undeserved and it's more like trying to clear her name from all the bad rumors and assumptions from people who never knew her in the first place. Or not trying because she's depressed, but still. As opposed to having to grapple with the things that someone else has actually done with that body, and the actual harm that has caused to other people.
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Nov 29, 2023 18:20
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Elfface posted:For a genre subversion there's This Isekai Maid Is Forming A Union in which a serially-reincarnated maid tries to keep her fellow servants safe from all the slap-happy nobles. Question, are ALL Korean manhwa about nobles, reincarnation, and all of this what have you full of this weird fetishized abuse and constant slapping and poo poo? I'm only familiar with the manga ones I read so it just feels weird and alien to me.
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Nov 30, 2023 01:23
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No, not at all. I've never read any of the ones that comic is referencing so it seemed weird to me but apparently I've just been reading the right ones.
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Nov 30, 2023 01:27
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Usually what happens is that the girl is being abused or neglected by her family for whatever reason, and the maids follow the example of their masters and abuse her too. So the first step in standing up for herself is to slap a maid for some horrible act (like feeding her moldy food or dumping water on her or whatever) and remind her that she's the one in charge. Then she moves up the chain of enemies and has to deal with her evil stepmother, etc. In most cases it feels perfectly natural and deserved because their treatment of her really is that horrible, but it gets weird when you notice the pattern. Especially because of the undercurrent of "you're just a mere maid, how dare you treat me this way!" and the fact that the main characters are always nobility. So it becomes a little... class essentialist? tl'dr: It's supposed to be a cathartic act of a bullied person standing up for herself for the first time. Clarste fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 01:28
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Clarste posted:Usually what happens is that the girl is being abused or neglected by her family for whatever reason, and the maids follow the example of their masters and abuse her too. So the first step in standing up for herself is to slap a maid for some horrible act (like feeding her moldy food or dumping water on her or whatever) and remind her that she's the one in charge. Then she moves up the chain of enemies and has to deal with her evil stepmother, etc. In most cases it feels perfectly natural and deserved because their treatment of her really is that horrible, but it gets weird when you notice the pattern. Especially because of the undercurrent of "you're just a mere maid, how dare you treat me this way!" and the fact that the main characters are always nobility. So it becomes a little... class essentialist? Ah okay. That makes more sense and yeah that's...super weird for the reason you said. I can kind of get it especially if they were an illegitimate child or something, but still weird. The chapters I'm reading reference a bunch of other manhwa where they have the "Troubled, But Cute" male lead who does hosed up poo poo, but is forgiven because "I can fix him with with power of love". I can behind a series of helping a lead male or female sort out some of their issues and baggage, but unless it was self-defense or some other circumstances of a similar nature, killing people especially en masse like some of the described is way out there. Edit: The chapter mentioning going online to see people defend the killer hot noble reminded me immediately of MHA for some reason.
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Nov 30, 2023 01:44
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That said, Korean webtoons have a fascinating relationship with class and power that you could probably write a thesis on, but the extremely short version is that they seem to accept class power imbalances as not acceptable per se, but inevitable and see little reason to try to fight it. So if you have the opportunity to take advantage of that, you might as well.
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Nov 30, 2023 01:48
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Serious villainess stories almost always have a classist undertone because of the premise. The main character is the villainess of someone else's story: they use their position higher on the social ladder to bully the heroine. A lot of the Korean stories that get adapted and translated, especially the more serious ones, focus on the social interactions of the main character and use them as a source for drama (and romance). But if you take that premise seriously and focus on it as a source of drama, weird class dynamics show up very quickly. Of course, these are power fantasies just as much as the "I will level up for 700 chapters!" genre is, but the power fantasy is one of deserving to stand above others. This doesn't always happen, obviously, and there are a still a ton of villainess- or villainess-adjacent ones that don't really come off this way, though half the time that's because they don't have any characters of a lower social class who get screentime at all. And of course the villainess comedy is just as old as the drama and tends not to go in this direction.
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Nov 30, 2023 01:55
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The entire villainess isekai genre is founded on a libertarian reaction that posits that being self-centered and pragmatic is a better way to live than the selfless idealism espoused in most fairy tale romances. It quickly got big enough and popular enough that authors started putting their own spin on the formula, but that's still like, the core feature that every work in the genre is in conversation with. I'd say it's more than a little class essentialist i love villainess manga and manwha myself, but i try to be realistic about what's really going on there
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Nov 30, 2023 02:03
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come on, there's a whole subgenre of comedy villainess stories going all the way back to kenkyo that don't have that premise at all
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Nov 30, 2023 02:07
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they're villainesses. it's in the name. the originals were never selfless idealists. they either committed arguably wicked deeds or had such ascribed to them. what the heck are you even talking about?
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Nov 30, 2023 02:25
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The original stories, not the original characters. Anyway, to add to the discussion, there's also the complementary trope of the loyal maid best friend, who the main character always treats well but implicitly "knows her place" and never questions or pushes back against the lead's decisions.
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Nov 30, 2023 02:29
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nrook posted:come on, there's a whole subgenre of comedy villainess stories going all the way back to kenkyo that don't have that premise at all i'll admit to that.the two progenitors to the genre by my memory are Bakarina and Accomplishments of a Duke's Daughter, and i had no idea until checking a few minutes ago that bakarina came out a full year before duke's daughter did. that said, most of the dramas follow in the vein of duke's daughter, and that was very much so in the pragmatic realist bracket
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Nov 30, 2023 02:31
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Korean villainess stories tend to be more cynical and go with "the only way for a woman to have power in this society is to attach herself to a powerful man," usually a handsome duke who hates women but of course the MC isn't like other girls. In modern settings they will be a CEO instead of a duke, but Korean comics don't recognize even the slightest difference between rich people and nobility. Which I guess is kind of leftist of them in a weird backwards sense. Anyway, the fundamental building block of these stories is the fake marriage, after which they can fall in love at their leisure.
Clarste fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 02:39
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yeah, the comedies go back basically to the beginning. for what it’s worth anyone with any interest in the genre whatsoever should read kenkyo kenjitsu; it’s easily the best japanese webnovel I’ve read, although I’m reading in translation so I’m not going to pretend my experience is either broad or entirely fair. there are definitely a bunch of dramas which set the serious, competent villainess against the flighty, unrealistic and jumped-up heroine, and I basically never enjoy seeing such a heroine for basically the reasons you mention. although calling that essentially libertarian is silly.
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Nov 30, 2023 02:43
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I'd say the flighty heroine-antagonist is more commonly portrayed as completely selfish for only worrying about her love life, as opposed to the proper noblesse oblige thing of taking good care of her domain, so I'm not sure I'd call that libertarian either.
Clarste fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 03:00
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Forgot to post, but on the topic of noblewomen and slaps... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGrKUi11ZHg Clarste posted:The original stories, not the original characters. I'm reading one called "I'm not Even and NPC in this Otome Game" that actually has a pretty interesting spin on the loyal maid in that she's actually also nobility, but of lower rank(Baron) and was turned away due to her "features"(freckles which the MC notes would likely be viewed as cute in his world and aren't really viewed as that big of a deal), but the idea is that she serves the Duke and Prime Ministers daughter so that she has an "in" to get into high society. Bakarina did the same if I recall. Clarste posted:I'd say the flighty heroine-antagonist is more commonly portrayed as completely selfish for only worrying about her love life, as opposed to the proper noblesse oblige thing of taking good care of her domain, so I'm not sure I'd call that libertarian either. The trope gets played with a lot, but yes their almost always shown as competent and caring about the people of fiefdoms and being competent people(unless they're kids in which that role is the parents).
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Nov 30, 2023 03:28
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doomrider7 posted:I'm reading one called "I'm not Even and NPC in this Otome Game" that actually has a pretty interesting spin on the loyal maid in that she's actually also nobility, but of lower rank(Baron) and was turned away due to her "features"(freckles which the MC notes would likely be viewed as cute in his world and aren't really viewed as that big of a deal), but the idea is that she serves the Duke and Prime Ministers daughter so that she has an "in" to get into high society. Bakarina did the same if I recall. I'm not sure that's a spin on it exactly. It's just a common thing in these stories that when you're a high enough ranking noble it would be improper to be served by a mere commoner so you get a bottom-of-the-barrel noblewoman to serve you instead. Honestly I kind of assumed that was just based on history, or at least a pop-culture understanding of it.
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Nov 30, 2023 03:35
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Yeah, I’d figure it was just taking inspiration from the (real) position of lady-in-waiting.
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Nov 30, 2023 03:37
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its why im enjoying Tearmoon so much. She's massively improving the lives of her subjects and the people around her, but accidentally and for entirely selfish reasons. 
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Nov 30, 2023 03:38
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A goddess! A saint! Wisdom! Intelligence! Kindness! Fraternity! That is it!
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Nov 30, 2023 03:49
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Clarste posted:I'm not sure that's a spin on it exactly. It's just a common thing in these stories that when you're a high enough ranking noble it would be improper to be served by a mere commoner so you get a bottom-of-the-barrel noblewoman to serve you instead. Honestly I kind of assumed that was just based on history, or at least a pop-culture understanding of it. Yeah that makes sense. I was mostly thinking of "Accomplishments of a Dukes Daughter" where the maid WAS indeed a commoner. I do recommend Otome NPC as it's really nice and wholesome. Synthbuttrange posted:its why im enjoying Tearmoon so much. She's massively improving the lives of her subjects and the people around her, but accidentally and for entirely selfish reasons. Really need to pick this up since it really does sound like Bakarina.
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Nov 30, 2023 03:52
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nrook posted:yeah, the comedies go back basically to the beginning. for what it’s worth anyone with any interest in the genre whatsoever should read kenkyo kenjitsu; it’s easily the best japanese webnovel I’ve read, although I’m reading in translation so I’m not going to pretend my experience is either broad or entirely fair. do not read Kenkyo Kenjitsu because it went on hiatus like 6 years ago and the author appears to have just loving vanished from the web. It is very good, but it's not even really in a good "and the story goes on" kinda place where it abruptly ends.
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Nov 30, 2023 05:54
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doomrider7 posted:Question, are ALL Korean manhwa about nobles, reincarnation, and all of this what have you full of this weird fetishized abuse and constant slapping and poo poo? I'm only familiar with the manga ones I read so it just feels weird and alien to me. It feels very Medieval to me (Mainly because it's all set in these gigantic manors and everyone's wearing the one maid dress) back when you'd expect to see people taking off gloves and throwing them in someone's face and dueling all the time. That kind of classic drama. Speaking of reincarnation and isekai stories (Thanks for all the recommendations!) I'm surprised I haven't come across any of them that really get weird. 'Accidentally pulling an alien in' 'Getting reincarnation and time travel mixed up in the process' etc
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Nov 30, 2023 12:32
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there are plenty of weird ones. there are plenty about reincarnating as a monster, an undead, an inanimate object, an alien, etc. they just usually aren't as interesting to me as the stories about a bad bitch in a fancy dress.
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Nov 30, 2023 12:46
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Getting into the part of Surviving Romance where she's trying the full run, no casualties route. Also hit an AMAZING thing trying to read it on Webtoons yesterday.  then when I took a screenshot of that this popped up  
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Nov 30, 2023 12:48
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