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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Okay, but there were a bunch of survivors who said that the Hamas guys were just shooting people left and right. I saw one video that was probably taken from a surveillance camera of a guy actually shooting people in the back as they ran away from that festival. And you can disbelieve the witness accounts, but the basic problem -- as I look at it -- isn't convincing me of that, it's convincing the Israelis that Hamas isn't trying to kill them. You know? What are they going to say? "Oh sorry we didn't realize that it was our own guys who did the festival attack and not Hamas" and then stop trying to destroy them? Doesn't seem likely to me. I don't know why you're replying as if I said Hamas didn't kill people, and I also really don't give a poo poo what the privileged group of an apartheid state think about anything to be honest. The fear of Hamas is a cultivated excuse to justify the hatred and repression already present in that society. Hamas itself is a cultivated excuse.
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Nov 30, 2023 19:27
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Okay, but there were a bunch of survivors who said that the Hamas guys were just shooting people left and right. I saw one video that was probably taken from a surveillance camera of a guy actually shooting people in the back as they ran away from that festival. And you can disbelieve the witness accounts, but the basic problem -- as I look at it -- isn't convincing me of that, it's convincing the Israelis that Hamas isn't trying to kill them. You know? What are they going to say? "Oh sorry we didn't realize that it was our own guys who did the festival attack and not Hamas" and then stop trying to destroy them? Doesn't seem likely to me. I'm trying to understand what you think you're arguing against. I'm reading your post over and over, and it kind of comes across that you think that you are arguing against somebody who flat out denies Hamas' involvement? If that's the case, be aware that that is not who you are arguing against. If that is not the case, boy howdy some clarification would be useful, because it is not at all clear what you're trying to debunk.
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Nov 30, 2023 19:47
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Unreasonable doubt being accepted into discourse is a good way to sabotage a group, if that CIA pamphlet is to be believed.
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Nov 30, 2023 19:54
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This is far from the first or even second time that somebody started flurrying against another poster as though they outright denied Hamas' involvement despite nothing in their posting coming close to hinting as much. Is there an advertising campaign out there saying that a consequential volume of people are just flat out denying Hamas exists or something? Is this some kind of talking point flaring through certain media spheres, "Omg the radical left that makes up 48% of your countrymen denies Hamas' involvement" or similar? What is prejudicing some people so thoroughly that they readily infer such an extreme position, the gay stalin avatar? it's not just happening here, I'm seeing it elsewhere and I am wondering if there is something preconditioning these people to presume the worst out of anything conventionally left of center on the I/P issue. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 19:55
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Herstory Begins Now posted:eh makes more sense in the context of just how many completely destroyed cars there are to deal with You don't normally bury destroyed cars - you scrap them or recycle them. Burying them is unusual.
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Nov 30, 2023 19:57
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CommieGIR posted:You don't normally bury destroyed cars - you scrap them or recycle them. Burying them is unusual. According to articles on it, they're going to shred them individually to save space, better explanation here. Impetus is primarily religious, but also on a practical level what else are you going to do with them. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-774511 E: I give the IDF zero benefit of the doubt generally, but I do think the question of what number or percent of people were victims of friendly fire is substantively immaterial. It is a pertinent question from the perspective of wanting to understand what transpired that day, but as far as responsibility for what happened on 10/7, it doesn't change anything. If you launch an attack with the specific intention of creating a huge amount of chaos and you succeed and in that chaos even more people are killed, you're every bit as on the hook for that as if you killed them yourself. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 20:02
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I don't know why you're replying as if I said Hamas didn't kill people, and I also really don't give a poo poo what the privileged group of an apartheid state think about anything to be honest. The fear of Hamas is a cultivated excuse to justify the hatred and repression already present in that society. Hamas itself is a cultivated excuse. The problem is that you’ve decided that a group of humans is bad and therefore not worthy of being treated as fully human. In your last two posts you’ve assumed the worst about their motives and said you don’t care about their fears. Dehumanizing anyone is a problem.
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Nov 30, 2023 20:40
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Potato Salad posted:Is there an advertising campaign out there saying that a consequential volume of people are just flat out denying Hamas exists or something? Is this some kind of talking point flaring through certain media spheres, "Omg the radical left that makes up 48% of your countrymen denies Hamas' involvement" or similar? to a degree, yes. with recent viral Oakland city council snafu as an example, i don't think it's at all difficult to say that the JCRC intentionally chose a small non-representative sample of the most radical and vitriolic commenters against the amendment to also condemn Hamas' actions, with the goal of portraying them as representative. representing an opposing side of an issue as a uniform, extremely radical bloc is a time-honored tactic to sway anyone on the fence and to solidify the fears of those already on your side
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Nov 30, 2023 21:41
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wins32767 posted:The problem is that you’ve decided that a group of humans is bad and therefore not worthy of being treated as fully human. In your last two posts you’ve assumed the worst about their motives and said you don’t care about their fears. Dehumanizing anyone is a problem. I'm sorry, am I meant to be sympathetic towards the Apartheid society overwhelmingly enthusiastic about committing genocide? To accuse me of dehumanisation in this particular context is pretty loving rum. Potato Salad posted:What is prejudicing some people so thoroughly that they readily infer such an extreme position, the gay stalin avatar? I have noticed that yes, for some people in some threads it actually is. It's both funny and depressing.
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Nov 30, 2023 22:12
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I'm sorry, am I meant to be sympathetic towards the Apartheid society overwhelmingly enthusiastic about committing genocide? To accuse me of dehumanisation in this particular context is pretty loving rum. The kind of people who live in the kibbutzes (not sure of the plural there) and constituted an overwhelming majority of the people who were killed and kidnapped have (generally) historically been very opposed to Netanyahu and other hardliners and have favored a more open and positive approach to relations with Palestine. From what I can gather, a lot of the seething anger at Netanyahu is because he's long held that those aren't his people and - in their view - intentionally left them to the slaughter. This is also why so many people were pissed when he initially seemed laser-focused on destroying Hamas, hostages be damned - again, they weren't his voters, so why should he bother trying to get them back? psydude fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 22:18
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psydude posted:The kind of people who live in the kibbutzes (not sure of the plural there) and constituted an overwhelming majority of the people who were killed and kidnapped have (generally) historically been very opposed to Netanyahu and other hardliners and have favored a more open and positive approach to relations with Palestine. I'm not saying this necessarily isn't right, but it seems wrong, considering that they all seem like prime beneficiaries of land being stolen from the Palestinians, if there's any group that would have something to lose in a fair and equitable settlement with the Palestinians that returns their home to them in a meaningful way, it'd be those who live in Kibbutzes, which isn't even getting into how Kibbutzes have absolutely been historically used to realize land grabs pretty much since the founding of Israel.
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Nov 30, 2023 22:49
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I don't know why you're replying as if I said Hamas didn't kill people, and I also really don't give a poo poo what the privileged group of an apartheid state think about anything to be honest. Potato Salad posted:I'm trying to understand what you think you're arguing against. I'm reading your post over and over, and it kind of comes across that you think that you are arguing against somebody who flat out denies Hamas' involvement? If that's the case, be aware that that is not who you are arguing against. If that is not the case, boy howdy some clarification would be useful, because it is not at all clear what you're trying to debunk.
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Nov 30, 2023 23:05
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm not saying this necessarily isn't right, but it seems wrong, considering that they all seem like prime beneficiaries of land being stolen from the Palestinians, if there's any group that would have something to lose in a fair and equitable settlement with the Palestinians that returns their home to them in a meaningful way, it'd be those who live in Kibbutzes, which isn't even getting into how Kibbutzes have absolutely been historically used to realize land grabs pretty much since the founding of Israel. I think you're confusing settlements (of the "Israeli Settler" variety) with the Kibbutzes. Kibbutzes are just communes and have traditionally attracted left-leaning Israelis in the same way that communal living has attracted like-minded folk around the world. I guess settlements like those in the West Bank could also be Kibbutzes, but just because a community is a Kibbutz doesn't mean it's on stolen Palestinian land. psydude fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 23:10
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None of the kibbutzes around Gaza were settlements*. There are kibbutzes that are arguably (or explicitly) also settlements, but they are in the West Bank or the Golan Heights. The Gaza settlements were removed in 2007. Of course, it remains to be seen if Netanyahu allows the far right to rebuild them as part of his war (they are salivating for it - every time you see a reference to rebuilding Gush Katif, that's what they're talking about). * in a "pre-1967 borders" sense - obviously, if you believe all of Israel is a giant settlement, you get a different answer here
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Nov 30, 2023 23:21
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psydude posted:I think you're confusing settlements (of the "Israeli Settler" variety) with the Kibbutzes. Kibbutzes are just communes and have traditionally attracted left-leaning Israelis in the same way that communal living has attracted like-minded folk around the world. I guess settlements like those in the West Bank could also be Kibbutzes, but just because a community is a Kibbutz doesn't mean it's on stolen Palestinian land. Strongly depends on what you define as "stolen Palestinian land." If you look at the 1967 borders and say "this is a fair and equitable distribution of land, Israel deserves this." then sure, the Kibbutzes are not on stolen Palestinian land, and we would proceed to greatly disagree on the matter. Also several of them are in the occupied West Bank, which makes it even more clear cut.
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Dec 1, 2023 00:14
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PurpleXVI posted:Strongly depends on what you define as "stolen Palestinian land." If you look at the 1967 borders and say "this is a fair and equitable distribution of land, Israel deserves this." then sure, the Kibbutzes are not on stolen Palestinian land, and we would proceed to greatly disagree on the matter. Also several of them are in the occupied West Bank, which makes it even more clear cut. Given that the movement dates to before World War I (i.e. even before the British took over), and many (including apparently some of those around Gaza) were formed in the 20s and 30s, I'm still not sure it's as simple as that, either.
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Dec 1, 2023 00:23
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psydude posted:Given that the movement dates to before World War I (i.e. even before the British took over), and many (including apparently some of those around Gaza) were formed in the 20s and 30s, I'm still not sure it's as simple as that, either. This is a perfectly reasonable observation about the history of the kibbutzim and shift from utopian idealist to uh, what all is going on now, but that avatar cranks
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Dec 1, 2023 00:43
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I'm sorry, am I meant to be sympathetic towards the Apartheid society overwhelmingly enthusiastic about committing genocide? To accuse me of dehumanisation in this particular context is pretty loving rum. Your arguments have the same moral architecture though: a set of people are doing something that violates my values so they no longer need to be treated with respect. You’re using a different set of values but you’re still ending up with “these people are not worth treating with the same respect as the people I like more”. All humans have intrinsic value, no matter how awful their action or that of their government. The Israeli children that were killed are just as innocent as the Palestinian ones who’ve been getting bombed. Any other moral argument leads pretty rapidly to some very dark places.
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Dec 1, 2023 00:55
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psydude posted:The kind of people who live in the kibbutzes (not sure of the plural there) and constituted an overwhelming majority of the people who were killed and kidnapped have (generally) historically been very opposed to Netanyahu and other hardliners and have favored a more open and positive approach to relations with Palestine. From what I can gather, a lot of the seething anger at Netanyahu is because he's long held that those aren't his people and - in their view - intentionally left them to the slaughter. This is also why so many people were pissed when he initially seemed laser-focused on destroying Hamas, hostages be damned - again, they weren't his voters, so why should he bother trying to get them back? PurpleXVI posted:I'm not saying this necessarily isn't right, but it seems wrong, considering that they all seem like prime beneficiaries of land being stolen from the Palestinians, if there's any group that would have something to lose in a fair and equitable settlement with the Palestinians that returns their home to them in a meaningful way, it'd be those who live in Kibbutzes, which isn't even getting into how Kibbutzes have absolutely been historically used to realize land grabs pretty much since the founding of Israel. Psydude is almost completely correct. The kibbutzim are notoriously left wing bastions and kibbutznikim are stereotypically naive, sheltered, hippies who despise Netanyahu and are constantly agitating for peace. The hatred is mutual- Netanyahu publicly compared kibbutzim to North Korea and the Nazis just a couple years ago (how's that for some antisemitism). The kibbutzim aren't any more beneficiaries of land being stolen from Palestine than anyone else in Israel and they don't stand lose anything more in a fair and equitable resolution to the conflict. In fact, they stand to lose a lot less. Only a tiny minority of settlements are kibbutzim and those in turn make up a tiny minority of the total kibbutzim (25 out of about 270). Almost all land Israel would be giving up would be that of non-kibbutznikim settlers. Almost the entirety of Israel's land theft is done through normal settlements. Kibbutzim as a collective whole aren't as involved in that process, especially post 70's when the Labor Party fell apart and Likud kibbutz policy started out from the basic premise of 'these are our political enemies, gently caress 'em.' However! I'm told there's a huge cultural split between the kibbutzim in Palestinian territory and the rest. Those kibbutzim have generally embraced a more nationalist/right wing ideology and are much more supportive of invasion and land theft in Palestine and have tried to form political links with Likud. I have no idea how far down that rabbit hole they've gone. PurpleXVI posted:Strongly depends on what you define as "stolen Palestinian land." If you look at the 1967 borders and say "this is a fair and equitable distribution of land, Israel deserves this." then sure, the Kibbutzes are not on stolen Palestinian land, and we would proceed to greatly disagree on the matter. Also several of them are in the occupied West Bank, which makes it even more clear cut. Well, a few things-- 1. As everyone point out, even the new Hamas charter accepts the 67 borders as the basis for negotiation on an acceptable 2 state solution, so there's not much point in being more Palestinian than the Palestinians. It's true they say that it's just a basis for absorbing all of Israel/Palestine, but if a 2 state solution was reached on those lines, there's not likely to be much will to continue the conflict and Hamas has to be aware of that, so they're de facto accepting that particular border. Even if you view the entirety of Israel as stolen land and the only fair and equitable solution is to return all of it, then the kibbutzim wouldn't lose any more than anyone else. And keep in mind these are still quite a small part of the Israeli population, so again the regular Israeli population has a lot more to lose. 2. It seems like you fundamentally misunderstand what a kibbutz is. The fact that several are in the West Bank doesn't mean anything more broadly. Kibbutzim aren't like branch offices of a single corporation, they're independent. Its just a description for a particular type of communal farm co-op. Indicting a kibbutz in Hadera on the basis that others are in the West Bank is sort of like saying don't bother buying a Toyota since it'll just crash itself into a group of pedestrians and lock you in the car while it lights itself on fire and pointing at Tesla as proof of that.
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Dec 1, 2023 01:36
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https://twitter.com/ElizHagedorn/status/1730316866852126799 Blinken seems to be confirming that Israel is targeting children and should probably stop but uh... will still give them endless weapons so who knows vOv
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Dec 1, 2023 02:50
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Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html (heads up: has one pic of two sheets over bodies and another of a hamas captive) Someone posted an unlocked copy of that in the D&D thread or you can pop it into archive.is Also comes on the heels of reporting to that effect over the last week, eg https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...nd-were-ignored There's also been anumber of leaks supposedly from unit 8200 over the last couple of weeks, but idk enough to judge how credible those are. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 03:10
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wins32767 posted:Your arguments have the same moral architecture though: a set of people are doing something that violates my values so they no longer need to be treated with respect. You’re using a different set of values but you’re still ending up with “these people are not worth treating with the same respect as the people I like more”. I posted pertinent factual information relevant to both events at hand and the topic in general. Someone used that as a non sequitur opening to talk about how we should take the internal justification for genocide seriously and sympathetically. I refused that invitation. I never argued that the dead children, or Israelis in general, had no value or deserved to die. Seriously, please stop doing this strawman poo poo. It's weird, and in this specific instance it's repugnant.
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Dec 1, 2023 05:27
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PurpleXVI posted:Strongly depends on what you define as "stolen Palestinian land." If you look at the 1967 borders and say "this is a fair and equitable distribution of land, Israel deserves this." then sure, the Kibbutzes are not on stolen Palestinian land, and we would proceed to greatly disagree on the matter. Also several of them are in the occupied West Bank, which makes it even more clear cut. You've repeatedly almost said you don't think Israel should exist as a country, which I think is the fundamental disagreement here.
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Dec 1, 2023 05:48
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knox_harrington posted:You've repeatedly almost said you don't think Israel should exist as a country, which I think is the fundamental disagreement here. I don't think it should exist in the country for the same reasons that Rhodesia or Apartheid South Africa shouldn't have been allowed to exist as a country. The problem isn't the the Jewish people, the problem is the Ethnoreligious Apartheid that doesn't just poo poo on Palestinians, but anyone who isn't Jewish, and the right kind of Jewish at that. That's the problem here. Edit: An Israel that is not an ethnoreligious apartheid state that engages in genocide and settler colonialism is absolutely fine. It just needs to either accept that non-Jewish populations have a right to be full citizens with full human rights, and to not try to do the Apartheid things or the Settler Colonialism things. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 05:59
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Sure but starting from whichever version of that premise means you can say that any action Israel takes is illegitimate, because the country shouldn't exist. And any action Hamas takes is legitimate, because Israel shouldn't exist. It gets in the way of having the important discussions about whether Israel is committing war crimes, and conversely what the effects on protections under international law for Hamas by eg not being uniformed military.
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Dec 1, 2023 06:14
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knox_harrington posted:You've repeatedly almost said you don't think Israel should exist as a country, which I think is the fundamental disagreement here. Fivemarks posted:I don't think it should exist in the country for the same reasons that Rhodesia or Apartheid South Africa shouldn't have been allowed to exist as a country. The problem isn't the the Jewish people, the problem is the Ethnoreligious Apartheid that doesn't just poo poo on Palestinians, but anyone who isn't Jewish, and the right kind of Jewish at that. That's the problem here. The Palestinian cause seems to lack something here. It's a cause. A dream or aspiration. But if there's a concrete program with material demands like other revolutionary movements in our recent past -- with a recognized leader and spokesman -- of the kind that the ANC in South Africa had in the 1950s, I haven't seen one. What exists instead is moral persuasion and a history of sort-sighted decisions, along with the hollowed-out and discredited Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, some (pretty idiotic looking but that's soldiers for you) gym addicts in the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade who are doing it all for the clout for their friends, and then this radical Islamic nationalist organization in Gaza which Israel has declared war on and is stating is not going to stop until they're destroyed. And I can say they should not do that, but the problem is convincing them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGbAdOcbZoE BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 08:28
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Well that's my point, Israel the country does exist, and whether you agree that's a good thing or not, it's the starting point from which their actions in Gaza need to be viewed.
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Dec 1, 2023 08:55
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knox_harrington posted:any action Israel takes is illegitimate, because the country shouldn't exist. And any action Hamas takes is legitimate, because Israel shouldn't exist. Hell yeah.
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Dec 1, 2023 10:14
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knox_harrington posted:You've repeatedly almost said you don't think Israel should exist as a country, which I think is the fundamental disagreement here. Perhaps I've repeatedly almost said it, because it's not actually what I've said? Trust me when I say that if I had some sort of genuinely insane take, I would spell it out, not hint at it. I'm not supportive of ethnic cleansing of Israelis from the region, but supporting the existence of Israel with its current borders is like supporting Russian land grabs in the Donbas, just a notably older injustice that a lot of people have grown to accept. It may be that the only lasting solution involves some sort of acceptance of it, but that doesn't mean I'll ever regard it as fair, just or correct. psydude posted:Given that the movement dates to before World War I (i.e. even before the British took over), and many (including apparently some of those around Gaza) were formed in the 20s and 30s, I'm still not sure it's as simple as that, either. Zionism was alive and well before WWI, they're not projects I'll ever be choosing to view as "left-wing" or progressive in any sense, especially considering that a good number of the later Kibbutzes were backed by the IDF, clearly making them important to the right-wing state's national projects. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:The Palestinian cause seems to lack something here. It's a cause. A dream or aspiration. But if there's a concrete program with material demands like other revolutionary movements in our recent past -- with a recognized leader and spokesman -- of the kind that the ANC in South Africa had in the 1950s, I haven't seen one. I think you're generally going to get that because their situation is so much more grim than South Africa. Anyone who aimed towards a clear and concrete goal, like a two-state solution centered around the 1967 borders, was completely discredited(for instance Fatah and the PA by collaborating massively with Israel) and Israel showed every sign that they did not actually care about that. So I think at that point, when the other party, Israel, has indicated with all words and actions, that a concrete, diplomatic solution will never be accepted, that anything signed and agreed on will be ignored, and that it will only end when all the Palestinians are dead, a lot of Palestinians go: "Well, in that case, we can clearly never co-exist with you." and end up supporting a maximalist program like Hamas' publicly stated "we need to destroy Israel." Because by all indications from Israel and the global community at large, that's the only point at which they'll ever be safe in their homes. So in my opinion, you can demand these things from the Palestinians and their organizations when there's even the faintest sign that Israel and various international partners and stakeholders in the situation would give a gently caress about it, rather than just sighing and wagging their finger at Israel when they build the latest round of internationally condemned and illegal settlements, then going back to trading with them as usual. You had your clear goals and strong, single leader in Arafat back in the 1990's, but even when they got 99% of what they wanted, Israel was unwilling to make even the slightest compromise necessary to make it more palatable to Arafat's domestic audience, didn't implement a bunch of what was agreed on completely, and rolled back a good deal of it the first time they saw an excuse to. Predictably, this sort of thing lead to the rise of the "dream-less" factions that couldn't see any future other than war and murder... because that's what Israel had shown them was all that was ever going to be on the menu. Meanwhile, in actual news contributing to the thread? https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...ths-to-win-war/ quote:Blinken: You can’t operate in southern Gaza in the way you did in the north. There are two million Palestinians there. You need to evacuate fewer people from their homes, be more accurate in the attacks, not hit UN facilities, and ensure that there are enough protected areas [for civilians]. And if not? Then not to attack where there is a civilian population. What is your system of operation? Something vaguely approaching "hey, please stop the war crimes or else!" from the US to Israel.
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Dec 1, 2023 10:15
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PurpleXVI posted:
I wonder just how much the gentle pushback from the US recently is about plausible deniability later when the genocide is complete, history starts telling the reasons for the genocide and US sympathetic historians will be compelled to point out how the US really tried to limit the extent of what was about to happen or their knowledge of what was happening.
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Dec 1, 2023 11:49
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PurpleXVI posted:Zionism was alive and well before WWI, they're not projects I'll ever be choosing to view as "left-wing" or progressive in any sense, especially considering that a good number of the later Kibbutzes were backed by the IDF, clearly making them important to the right-wing state's national projects. I don't know what else to say here, because you keep shifting the goalposts with respect to what you'd consider legitimate. Many of the kibbutzim (apparently that's the plural) were founded as secular communes before the creation of modern Israel by people who were fleeing persecution throughout Eastern Europe, Russia, and the Arabian peninsula. That doesn't strike me as Zionism. Rather, it really seems like you've decided that a part represents the whole and are looking for ways to apply it to everyone instead of appreciating the nuance, including the history pre-dating the current conflict. psydude fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 11:52
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knox_harrington posted:You've repeatedly almost said you don't think Israel should exist as a country, which I think is the fundamental disagreement here. Do apartheid genocidal states have a right to exist? Electric Wrigglies posted:I wonder just how much the gentle pushback from the US recently is about plausible deniability later when the genocide is complete, history starts telling the reasons for the genocide and US sympathetic historians will be compelled to point out how the US really tried to limit the extent of what was about to happen or their knowledge of what was happening. I think more compelling historical evidence will be the thousands of cargo manifests detailing all the weapons and equipment that we gave them to carry out the genocide rather than vague statements from Blinken. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 13:27
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Personally, I don't want Israel "to be destroyed" any more than I want, say, Saudi Arabia "to be destroyed." I just think they are both states led by theocratic thugs that regularly commit obvious and shameful human rights abuses as a matter of course, and anyone outside the ruling ethnic class is essentially a second class citizen. I think it would be better for the world generally if both states were not like that. As an American citizen I strongly disapprove of my government spending its money and reputation defending both states, and I want them to stop doing that. That's my only real political demand: Stop spending American money and reputation propping up violent human rights abusing ethnostates. For this certain people would label me a dangerous radical. I don't have any particular prescription for how to make countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel "not like that" because there's a huge number of ways that could happen, the end result might not actually be better, and assuming I have the answers on how to fix everything is the kind of dumb American arrogance the world really really needs less of right now. If, however, someone reads a desire for Israel to stop being a violent apartheid state rooted in Jewish supremacy as "the destruction of Israel", I think that says more about them than anyone else.
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Dec 1, 2023 14:05
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And in case someone would mistake me as thinking America is without sin: Sixty years ago there were people who described the push to end the Jim Crow system as an existential attack on the foundation of America. That the movement to end Jim Crow was a foreign/anarchist/communist/homosexual plot to destroy America. There are certainly people who still believe that today. I think it's very obvious what those people actually stand for and they can go gently caress themselves.
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Dec 1, 2023 14:16
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mrmcd posted:I don't have any particular prescription for how to make countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel "not like that" because there's a huge number of ways that could happen, the end result might not actually be better, and assuming I have the answers on how to fix everything is the kind of dumb American arrogance the world really really needs less of right now. I believe there are some people we can ask about this. The Irish, perhaps? Maybe the Portuguese? Perhaps even the people of Zimbabwe and South Africa? Edit: Maybe the Vietnamese while we're at it.
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Dec 1, 2023 14:42
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Bored As gently caress posted:Uhhh Oh great, the same AI-based battlespace and counterterrorism management systems the Israelis are selling to our police departments.
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Dec 1, 2023 15:21
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wins32767 posted:Your arguments have the same moral architecture though: a set of people are doing something that violates my values so they no longer need to be treated with respect. You’re using a different set of values but you’re still ending up with “these people are not worth treating with the same respect as the people I like more”. The easy fix here seems to be stopping Israel from carrying out its widely popular campaign of ethnic cleansing before too many more people keep getting the wrong impression about them leading to further dehumanization
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Dec 1, 2023 15:58
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If people keep judging by their actions, they might get the wrong idea!
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Dec 1, 2023 16:47
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Potato Salad posted:Oh great, the same AI-based battlespace and counterterrorism management systems the Israelis are selling to our police departments. Really weird that the NYPD keeps sending their officers to Israel to learn so much about their vaunted technology. I’m sure it’s no big deal. https://gothamist.com/news/mayor-adams-nypd-officials-tour-israels-national-police-academy-to-review-drone-technology
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Dec 1, 2023 16:55
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