borgnar posted:

that's true, angleton apparently genuinely believed ol' henry was a communist plant because he was so keen on normalizing with china

borgnar posted:

that's true, angleton apparently genuinely believed ol' henry was a communist plant because he was so keen on normalizing with china

uno.mannschaft posted:

Are there any good biographies on Kim the G?

borgnar posted:

that's true, angleton apparently genuinely believed ol' henry was a communist plant because he was so keen on normalizing with china

Cached Money posted:

then again angleton believed that about pretty much everyone except the guy who actually was a communist spy

cagliostr0 posted:

I'm hard on the Angleton was a KGB plant wagon

mdemone posted:

please help, I don't want to keep explaining why False Memory Syndrome doesn't exist but Azathoth is making me do it in the bird thread

MonsieurChoc posted:

Declare is alright if very anticommunist.

Pretzel Rod Serling posted:

saw Tim Powers Israelposting on Facebook and it ruined my life

Azathoth posted:

sorry bud

mdemone posted:

yeah I think we basically agree in that the memories are built by the victims themselves, and that "received programming" is exceedingly rare if it exists at all, and probably uncontrollable in those cases.

I believe Sirhan Sirhan. But it must be so incredibly rare and painstaking as to not be worth the effort for the sake of an intel program.

Azathoth posted:

My theory on Sirhan Sirhan is that he was likely one of many, many people they psyched up to hate the Kennedys to the point of wanting them dead. Basically broke him and a bunch of people down, most of whom just ended up with debilitating mental illnesses, with the hope that one of them would end up in a position to do something. The vast majority of them ended up in institutions and then on the street when those institutions closed, and Sirhan Sirhan was "lucky" and was able to be in the right place at the right time. Think of it as a spearfish version of stochastic terrorism.

Trabisnikof posted:

im more of the theory that sirhan didn't kill rfk and his gun was loaded with blanks.

with the idea that the cia figured out how to break someone's brain enough to get them to attempt an assassination, but in breaking their brain so bad, they're not a reliable assassin. so instead you use them as a patsy and have a real assassin do the deed.


Lisa Pease's A Lie Too Big to Fail: The Real History of the Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy is a compelling argument on this topic.

Spergin Morlock posted:

Israelis on a roof in NJ cheering as RFK bleeds to death on the floor

quote:

Lucy Letby was convicted of killing babies in ways that left no evidence and in some cases aren’t known to be physically possible (immobilizing lungs by putting air into stomach by ng tube) and if people learn you ever said the case was really concerning it’s all out hysterics

(The insulin results were for babies that didn’t die and weren’t independently considered suspicious. none of the babies that died were allegedly killed with insulin. If you care about wrongful convictions this being the only thing presented as hard evidence is a huge red flag)

She was accused by the unit’s senior doctors who would in normal circumstances be considered responsible for patient safety on the unit. Many of the babies Letby allegedly harmed and killed suffered medical errors, some really serious.

A doctor left an ICU baby unattended and off monitor on a procedure cart. Another doctor left thoracotomy needles in a baby’s chest and probably injured her lung. Another doctor installed a chest tube over her heart but recorded in the notes it was in the correct place

He didn’t secure and on scans it was visibly moving around. A lot of babies didn’t get prompt breathing support. A baby’s mom wasn’t given indicated antibiotics to prevent him from getting pneumonia during birth; he got pneumonia and at the time was believed to have died from it

Another baby Letby was convicted of murdering died of a severe unexplained upper GI bleed which would have been an obligatory autopsy if had been recorded on the death certificate, but the doctor recorded the death as caused by a common lower GI disease instead

The baby had not been previously diagnosed with that disease and does not seem to have had symptoms of it. The doctors do not seem to have ever followed mandatory incident reporting procedures

In a functioning unit, the insulin results would have initiated an inquiry into whether there was an accidental administration. The jury was told it couldn’t have been, because no patients on the unit had been prescribed it at the time.

That was technically true, but in one case, only bc the baby’s identical twin, who had been on insulin, had died earlier that morning. Wrong patient errors are also just not the only kind of medication error that happens in hospitals, the other obvious kind is wrong medication.

Insulin/heparin errors happen pretty regularly, especially if things are organized in a way that makes it easy. Identifying this kind of problem is the point of doing the inquiry. The unit was really dangerous for reasons that had nothing to do with Lucy Letby

A recurring feature of the cases is that babies actually deteriorated over time but doctors “couldn’t figure out why,” and then they died, and the prosecution’s case was that it was multiple or slow murder attempts by Lucy Letby.

But it was a local medical unit, not an actual NICU, and if babies were deteriorating and they didn’t know why they should have been consulting or transferring them. That Letby was harming the babies also doesn’t really explain why the doctors couldn’t diagnose them, because the ways she was allegedly harming them have unintentional analogues: babies on positive pressure ventilation get air in their stomachs all the time, and doctors should definitely be able to identify it. Patients with central lines sometimes get air embolisms.

You wouldn’t expect it to occur a lot absent serious procedural problems, but it is a known complication and if it actually fit what happened and they never considered it, that’s bad!

The reason the senior doctors started suspecting Letby of serial murder, according to them, was 1) the death rate was so high, and 2) Letby was the common factor. But the unit was a disaster and Letby worked nights and weekends, and with the sickest babies.

The prosecution said it was a scheme to be able to murder them but she is also just exactly the kind of nurse who ends up with disproportionate deaths while she’s on service for innocuous reasons. And especially so bc there was a lot of turnover in the rest of the nursing staff

The “suspicious collapses” charged as attempted murder seem to have been considered suspicious because she was on service, not by independent criteria, which makes the fact that she was the only person on for all the cases she was charged with especially uninformative

The prosecution’s central witness, Dewi Evans, purported to be able to rule out all natural causes post hoc and therefore know it was murder, which is just not really something physicians can actually do. Especially because he was working largely from medical notes, which do not contain things that were missed. They also do not contain the supposedly distinguishing sign of air embolisms that doctors later testified to seeing on multiple babies: moving pink patches on cyanosed skin

(That this is a sign of air embolism comes from one paper from the 80s) Doctors testified that they thought this was bizarre and they didn’t understand it, but they didn’t record it. So the case is that what was wrong with the babies had observed symptoms that weren’t recorded

But the case is also that the deaths couldn’t be natural because there aren’t things in the notes that would explain them. In general this kind of collective post hoc recall of key incriminating features is very unreliable

The last babies that died before the doctors formally accused Letby were almost full term and there was finally going to be a coroner’s inquiry. The doctors were aware they were “all under suspicion” and represented this as reason to go to the police.



If senior doctors tell the police they think a nurse is murdering patients the police are very likely to be convinced. It is very dangerous to do with no evidence



Letby’s “confession note” was written after she was interviewed by police because doctors had accused her of murdering babies that died on her watch, after they had demanded she be taken off unit because they blamed her for the deaths



It says “I haven’t done anything wrong” “police investigation” “slander discrimination” “NO HOPE” & also “I killed then on purpose” “I AM EVIL I DID THIS” If she was innocent it would be an extreme case of mobbing & what happens when people are mobbed is they lose their poo poo

o I forgot the worst mistake: after a period of “token resuscitation” so a baby could be baptized, a senior doctor declared a baby dead and gave him to his mother, who noticed he was still breathing.



The doctor said he would have profound brain damage based on the assumption that the baby’s heart and breathing “restarted” rather than their having maybe failed to detect it and so they discontinued life support and gave the baby morphine and waited 5 hours for him to die

Maybe the only time they changed their practices based on a death, the doctor decided that in the future they would do baptisms themselves instead of waiting for a priest to avoid other babies spontaneously coming back to life

This was the doctor that forgot the baby on the procedure cart. Letby was originally accused of taking its monitor off but when another nurse heard this in the opening statements she reported that he had in fact apologized to her for doing it

The insulin panels were ordered because the babies were hypo for over 24 hours, so Letby is accused of giving them a constant dose of insulin via their IV nutrition. In one case it unexpectedly had to be replaced with a stock bag long after she went home



so she is accused of randomly putting the same dose of insulin in the stock bag also. The baby was nil by mouth and the doctor just kept giving him glucose blouses whenever they noticed it was still low instead of increasing his infusion. attempted murder via precognizing what had to be done to ensure a baby received the same dose of insulin that was obviously not killing him and presumably could have been counteracted if instead of Dr. Harkness’s Glucose Wild Ride they increased the rate of the infusion

quote:

code:

https://twitter.com/ArsonAtDennys/status/1730794152147796269

I thought that you might have been engaging in hyperbole about Letby when I saw this today and then I read the Wikipedia page which just asserts over and over that air was introduced into babies stomachs by injection without ever providing evidence that this happened.

What is the evidence? The baby died. There are 3 clinical scenarios: intravenous air by Lucy Letby, stomach air by Lucy Letby, intravenous AND stomach air by Lucy Letby. star witness for the prosecution. verdict: guilty

gradenko_2000 posted:

code:

https://twitter.com/christapeterso/status/1730717050686025924

Azathoth posted:

Chaos is really useful as a book to give someone who is just getting started down this path. Its value isn't in dropping huge bombs (though it has some) but rather in the way it was meticulously documented, both to resist debunking and also serve as a jumping off point to go deeper.

Pretzel Rod Serling posted:

saw Tim Powers Israelposting on Facebook and it ruined my life

MonsieurChoc posted:

I’m not surprised but I am disappointed.

gradenko_2000 posted: