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well everyone. i don't want to accidentally make a simple rib between sweet and cute gentlemen appear as something else and i am just not sure where i stand on the post that i'd made. i think it would feel appropriately comfortable between friends, but possibly not so between acquaintances, so i've decided that you can please read the following lovely post by 'Probably Magic' rather than this.
Cavauro fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 20:22
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I thought all these guys would be bad, though I did think Stroud had possibly the best upside of them all, but lol, kinda wrong there.
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Dec 3, 2023 20:24
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:What’s your take on Penix here? I’ve honestly gasped at the velocity on some of his flat-trajectory throws from the far college hash to a route on the other sideline. Bit of a red herring. Hard outs are essentially a different throw in college—hash to hash has more space which means it’s a sharper angle where you can place is more easily away from a defender than the league. Penix has good velocity but he’s not throwing the balls that Stroud/Lawrence/Fields were on this, more or less by play design. I think he might have it, but there will be an adjustment period to his placement and a need to consistently transfer his weight because his peak velocity does look nice. Doltos posted:On my end I thought that Bryce could get away with it. I don't think footwork matters that much on short routes which Bryce excelled at. Kind of like how a shortstop can do an off balance throw because the torque of the elbow snapping. Like GG said the margins in the NFL are so exact that having just a little bit off can dumpster your career. For what it's worth I think he still looks the same in college on the short routes, it's just when he has to push the ball you see what happens in that video. Locked legs after a drop back basically kills any chance of delivering a speedy ball beyond 10 yards. He definitely has to fix that. Rosen was our white whale, but I think I was a little cooler on Bryce than you just because I wasn’t sure that he was growing much more as a player beyond hitting some movers over the middle and some deep balls. It’s really really jarring to me how bad his feet got when I don’t honestly think his Carolina line is about the same marginal disadvantage that his Bama one was. Reich really really tried to make him a drop back guy and more or less turned him into Baker on a bad day when his feet were messy under Hue. I told you all about Stroud though. That one feels like the best eval I’ve had in a while.
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Dec 3, 2023 22:02
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TheGreyGhost posted:I told you all about Stroud though. That one feels like the best eval I’ve had in a while. ??? You had Bryce above him. I was aghast that you had Bryce over Stroud. It felt like the ultimate betrayal.
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Dec 4, 2023 07:22
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Ornery and Hornery posted:??? ?? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4018787&userid=184604&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post529087137 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4018787&userid=184604&perpage=40&pagenumber=1#post528563960 I called CJ QB1 and worst case was calling him 1a to Bryce’s 1b. I think I gave them the same subjective score which in retrospect I probably should be dropping guys with his level of footwork problems more even if their objective scores go up on scrambling ability. I was arguably more critical of Stroud because there were flatly more reps where he showed good and bad traits, while Bryce’s offense in the stuff over the middle or deep balls to talented receivers looked elite (when his feet were set and not causing him to leak power) even though he didn’t have the same throw variety or protection responsibility on hand. Fun thought experiment, how different are Rattler and Caleb now honestly? Great arm talent that they trust to make wacky throws. Caleb moves better but will stall and make worse decisions trying to extend things. Spencer arguably has better mechanics and speed off his hand. They play more similarly than ever since Spencer stwet d getting asked to run.
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Dec 4, 2023 07:58
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Keep in mind that Reich has also hosed with Youngs drop back multiple times in his rookie season. From installing everything out of 21 under centre to start, to having him slow his drop back to give the receivers more time to get into routes because they're all slow (except chark who's been in and out), Then they switched to a very shotgun heavy game plan. Then they changed again when Brown called over to a slightly more balanced approach but included more pistol concepts Then Reich took the play calling back and we had two weeks of both almost all shotgun and something resembling a more traditional mix. There's also been some issues with stuff like Reich wanting to change him to using a wristband and having McCown in the headset which lead to some confusion, then it changed back to him getting the read outs like he wanted. So he's had Reich, Brown, Reich, Brown calling plays in 2 different ways in 3 different operating styles having his drop back either installed or changed in that time as well. Add to that the nearly 50 sacks, offensive cast, ancient system he was in and... well.
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Dec 4, 2023 08:00
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TheGreyGhost posted:
Yeah it's kind of a cool feeling when your analysis of a player ends up being spot on. I wasn't super bull-ish on Stroud so I won't sit here and say he's one, but two players for me come to mind as my nailed projections: Joe Burrow and Dak Prescott. Joe isn't as impressive (Although I said he'd be a top 5 guy quickly and he basically has, still, not crazy) but you can find old posts of me not shutting up about Dak during his senior year at MSU. Edit: Since you two talked about your white whales, I'll throw mine out there: Marcus Mariota. That one still bums me out. Edit 2: Actually, no, my ultimate white whale will forever be RG3. I thought he'd be one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. Ugh man, what if... and he's someone I followed when he declared to U of H. Kirios fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Dec 4, 2023 |
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Dec 4, 2023 09:51
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Looking at those past lists and I had completely forgotten Jalen Carter falling to the Eagles After getting Jordan Davis year before. What the gently caress, other teams
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Dec 4, 2023 10:57
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I think most of TFF had Stroud over Young except for Panther's fans trying to talk themselves into Young.
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Dec 4, 2023 14:06
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I feel like having Stroud “over” Young doesn’t mean much if you still had Young high lol
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Dec 4, 2023 15:02
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Nosre posted:Looking at those past lists and I had completely forgotten Jalen Carter falling to the Eagles People keep saying this but he was involved in an incident that got a teammate killed and a lot of reports from the combine made him sound like late-career Albert Haynesworth in terms of giving a poo poo about football. He didn’t drop because of talent.
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Dec 4, 2023 15:08
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The car crash is one thing, but hearing Carter talk, it's abundantly clear he grinds tape. Maybe he took some plays off, I dunno, but I have no idea where the work ethic criticism came from
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Dec 4, 2023 16:31
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It was very very clear and understandable that after the Ruggs situation, the Raiders and probably a few other teams were in no position to take Carter given the drag racing leading to the deaths of 2 people thing.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:40
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:The car crash is one thing, but hearing Carter talk, it's abundantly clear he grinds tape. Maybe he took some plays off, I dunno, but I have no idea where the work ethic criticism came from I think he had a terrible workout or something. As a fan of a team that really could’ve used him he sounded like Nick Fairley 2.0.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:41
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Stroud and Young were both very good prospects and I believe deserve to be ranked high. GG was beating the Stroud drum from the get go which kind of made me do it too. I don't think anyone imagined Stroud would turn into the second coming of Drew Brees and that Young would be this bad. QB scouting be hard.Henchman of Santa posted:I think he had a terrible workout or something. As a fan of a team that really could’ve used him he sounded like Nick Fairley 2.0. In addition his conditioning was loving terrible at Georgia. I'm not sure if it was because he was still growing into his body or what but he'd have to take more plays off than Jordan Davis. I understand Georgia heavily rotates their line but you would see him gasping on the sideline for air after like a play. That was literally his only knock though, all the other poo poo was stupid draftnik talk.
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Dec 4, 2023 18:07
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MrLogan posted:I think most of TFF had Stroud over Young except for Panther's fans trying to talk themselves into Young. Nah that's definitely not the case. I'd say it was 80% Young 20% Stroud by the time the draft rolled around. I'm sure the Panthers basically telling the world they were going to pick him influenced that a little, but not enough to sway it in Stroud's favor. It's really easy to assume it went that way when one player is dominating and one is dangerously close to bust territory, but yeah, TFF were largely incorrect on the best quarterback.
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Dec 4, 2023 18:24
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I’m sure there are all sorts of advanced stats that speak to something else, but I am sorry…short guy with a small frame and a bad deep ball doesn’t pass the smell test. QBs aren’t point guards.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:42
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:I’m sure there are all sorts of advanced stats that speak to something else, but I am sorry…short guy with a small frame and a bad deep ball doesn’t pass the smell test. QBs aren’t point guards. stats, wins, gently caress that poo poo does your wife like him?  Also i know she's in platforms but Nicole is like 5 feet nothing.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:49
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:QBs aren’t point guards. You've just incurred the wrath of one David Tepper.
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Dec 4, 2023 20:14
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thanks for the detailed answers about arm strength! another QB question: has anyone who holds onto the ball too long/takes too many sacks ever developed out of that? I can't remember any QBs making a significant improvement in that area, it seems like a trait that's almost locked in and can only be managed with scheme
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Dec 4, 2023 20:54
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Not sure if you'd call it 'development' but Roethlisberger was the poster child for holding the ball forever(to great success) much of his career but ran a pretty pathetic but sometimes effective 2-seconds-and-throw offense for his last ~3 seasons
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Dec 4, 2023 23:46
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joe football posted:Not sure if you'd call it 'development' but Roethlisberger was the poster child for holding the ball forever(to great success) much of his career but ran a pretty pathetic but sometimes effective 2-seconds-and-throw offense for his last ~3 seasons The otherside of that I guess is Byron Leftwich who had a slow as poo poo wind up and used to cop a battering and never managed to find a way to improve his trigger. Then again those were some dire jags days.
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Dec 5, 2023 00:01
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joe football posted:Not sure if you'd call it 'development' but Roethlisberger was the poster child for holding the ball forever(to great success) much of his career but ran a pretty pathetic but sometimes effective 2-seconds-and-throw offense for his last ~3 seasons Also he shrugged off sacks like an ogre so that helped him Holding on to the ball forever is when I think QBs don't have the knack. Either they're poorly coached, don't have a rapport with their WR, or they just plain suck at finding open guys. It's also so hard to figure out if they're at fault. I didn't realize Daniel Jones was such a moron with it until I saw some tiktoker pull up all 22 and show him not throwing to open slants and seam routes that he was looking at. There's also a huge problem measuring time to release pass statistics. They count throw aways and incompletions, so if a QB whips the ball out of bounds or throws a crappy pass trying to force something short you won't see it in the time to throw stat. I think McDaniels did a great job fixing Tua holding on to the ball too long. He installed a super fast offense that requires Tua to throw to points in the field instead of a WR. That way as long as he gets the ball to a spot he can rely on Hill or Waddle getting to it before they're even out of their break. Purdy is also in a similar offense. It removes the need to process the field too much.
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Dec 5, 2023 00:21
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Doltos posted:Stroud and Young were both very good prospects and I believe deserve to be ranked high. GG was beating the Stroud drum from the get go which kind of made me do it too. I don't think anyone imagined Stroud would turn into the second coming of Drew Brees and that Young would be this bad. QB scouting be hard. I’m firmly at the 3 year check in rule with most QBs. Stroud’s stuff should carryover to future success since it’s not exactly pure scheme it up stuff from a rookie. Young could still turn out but I’m going to need them to fix his line and stop loving around with his drops. Reich thinks from the context of statue quarterbacks who hang in the pocket and need to be forced into being loose—Bryce needs to if anything be tightened up. It’s bad enough when your nfl coach messes with your mechanics, but that footwork is just bizarre given his tendencies scrambling and usually setting his feet decently prior to this. Carter is so loving weird. I love his talent and technique but he’s basically a 1980s throwback for when you rotated your DTs like crazy and had specialists in there. Conditioning was weird, but like all UGA guys are essentially conditioned like Olympic sprinters where not being able to rotate seems to turf them outside of a handful of exceptions. It’s a flip side of how much explosion they get out of spots.
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Dec 5, 2023 03:01
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TheGreyGhost posted:I’m firmly at the 3 year check in rule with most QBs. Stroud’s stuff should carryover to future success since it’s not exactly pure scheme it up stuff from a rookie. Young could still turn out but I’m going to need them to fix his line and stop loving around with his drops. Reich thinks from the context of statue quarterbacks who hang in the pocket and need to be forced into being loose—Bryce needs to if anything be tightened up. It’s bad enough when your nfl coach messes with your mechanics, but that footwork is just bizarre given his tendencies scrambling and usually setting his feet decently prior to this. I actually have some thoughts when it comes to footwork and Bryce's problem is a fixable one based on what I've seen fixed in the past with boxers and kick boxers. Id also argue that there isn't necessarily one right way but there are right ways and things that specifically need to occur for certain guys in order for them to be effective. Like Peyton had happy almost frenetic feet in his heyday, but they were set and perfect when he was actually throwing.
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Dec 5, 2023 03:31
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I always loved Stroud ahead of Bryce except ironically when TGG said he had the arm strength of Watson and when TGG gave Stroud a dishonorably low score in how much dawg he had in him. Stroud is just so dang accurate and the throwing motion is so smooth and aesthetically pleasing. Wish the Seahawks had somehow gotten him last year 
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Dec 5, 2023 09:48
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I’m thinking about big ‘ole lineman
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Dec 5, 2023 09:52
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Stroud always had that dawg in him and it will always be one in tggs biggest misses in that regard
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Dec 5, 2023 10:40
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I have nothing to back this up but Stroud being a tall black dude with dreads and Bryce being a cute lil clean cut guy 100% was a factor for Carolina, prove me wrong.
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Dec 5, 2023 17:45
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whos that broooown posted:Stroud always had that dawg in him and it will always be one in tggs biggest misses in that regard I literally put it on coaching at Ohio state man. Day is very much a “not too high not too low” guy who absolutely 100% puts guys on a leash. All his media availability at Ohio state sounded like a weird youth pastor who didn’t understand the job (don’t call your rival just another game). Maybe something really did snap in him after Georgia and all the fan backlash from the Michigan games because he was not nearly this cool in college lol. Ornery and Hornery posted:I always loved Stroud ahead of Bryce except ironically when TGG said he had the arm strength of Watson and when TGG gave Stroud a dishonorably low score in how much dawg he had in him. Watson’s velocity remains one of the more dramatic improvements anyone has done mechanically (may he burn in hell otherwise) but CJ made some tweaks going to the league now and cleaned up some of his release points on layer throws and loft where his bow and arrow release might have been making his life harder. Learning wrist work like that is just technical reps but it’s really given him the extra 15-20% of throws he needed that are conceivable for anyone who doesn’t have a Mahomes/Allen arm.
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Dec 5, 2023 18:03
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:I have nothing to back this up but Stroud being a tall black dude with dreads and Bryce being a cute lil clean cut guy 100% was a factor for Carolina, prove me wrong. Lowkey, I don’t think I’ve ever seen espn more disappointed to interview a two parent household than they were with Bryce. His dad is like a family counselor by the Rose Bowl here.
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Dec 5, 2023 18:05
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:I have nothing to back this up but Stroud being a tall black dude with dreads and Bryce being a cute lil clean cut guy 100% was a factor for Carolina, prove me wrong. I kind of worried about this too and it didn't get any better when they made all those wholesome videos of him immediately after the draft. It really seemed like they were trying to get your middle-aged mom to love him.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:24
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Imagine how much worse it'd have been if Richardson were still owner. poo poo, imagine how the idea of Stroud would've gone on the Texans if the "Can't let the inmates run the prison" owner were still alive.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:27
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I think it was more his ability to throw a ball 50 yards through the air and have it land on a dime to a receiver who can actually get open but yes I'm sure it was the hair cut.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:29
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I appreciate people being vigilant about trying to root out all forms of bias, but I think maybe we've lost the plot a little bit if we're theorizing that a professional athlete was discriminated against for being the prototypical height for his position, and also for being black (when the player picked over him was also black)
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Dec 5, 2023 22:31
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Also CJ Stroud is a vanilla personality mondo-Christian so he's not really giving off Bad Boy vibes
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Dec 5, 2023 22:33
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xbilkis posted:Also CJ Stroud is a vanilla personality mondo-Christian so he's not really giving off Bad Boy vibes His dad is a pastor who got convicted of armed robbery, and he grew up playing in the Snoop league. A disrespectful score is warranted for a guy who focused on the pastor part of that life lmao
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Dec 5, 2023 22:51
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The coaching staff said they all fell in love with Bryce-and if you want to take them at their word, decided to draft him- when they were sitting with him at dinner and he ended up being a really good public speaker.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:52
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xbilkis posted:I appreciate people being vigilant about trying to root out all forms of bias, but I think maybe we've lost the plot a little bit if we're theorizing that a professional athlete was discriminated against for being the prototypical height for his position, and also for being black (when the player picked over him was also black) I get your point but remember how Richardson immediately told Cam he wasn't allowed to get tattoos? some of these owners are truly nuts; something as innocuous as Stroud's hair maybe could trigger a dude like that. even if it doesn't make any logical sense to us I can buy superficial prejudice being a determining factor in picking one guy over another, even if they're both black
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Dec 5, 2023 22:56
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BlindSite posted:I think it was more his ability to throw a ball 50 yards through the air and have it land on a dime to a receiver who can actually get open but yes I'm sure it was the hair cut. Sounds like it was because of a dinner!
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Dec 5, 2023 23:02
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