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So not really a negotiating question but more an etiquette question. I am being flown out in two weeks for a final interview. Including the HR screen this will be my 4th interview. HR contact was very forward in initial screen and told me the base comp at that time, which is strong/I was very pleased with. Is now an appropriate time to follow up and ask if relocation benefits are included and what that consists of? I believe this position at this company typically offers relocation benefits but we have not formally discussed it.
hobbez fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 19:42
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hobbez posted:So not really a negotiating question but more an etiquette question. I am being flown out in two weeks for a final interview. Including the HR screen this will be my 4th interview. HR contact was very forward in initial screen and told me the base comp at that time, which is strong/I was very pleased with. Is now an appropriate time to follow up and ask if relocation benefits are included and what that consists of? I believe this position at this company typically offers relocation benefits but we have not formally discussed it. Relo is usually the last thing. Its not going to be rude to bring it up now, but typically they won't bring it up until there's a firm offer, I'd expect a polite deflection. They may be open to wiggle room, they may have a one-size-fits-all firm relo package, they may use another company that firewalls them from the nitty gritty.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:10
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And if they are a non profit, the CFO may try to ratfuck you by saying it's company policy not to reimburse taxes on any reimbursement. Ask me how I know!
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Nov 28, 2023 20:34
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Lockback posted:Relo is usually the last thing. Its not going to be rude to bring it up now, but typically they won't bring it up until there's a firm offer, I'd expect a polite deflection. They may be open to wiggle room, they may have a one-size-fits-all firm relo package, they may use another company that firewalls them from the nitty gritty. Thanks for this. She just responded and was like yep you would get 15k relo. She also told me there is a sign on bonus I wasn’t even aware of? Really appreciate how direct they have been about the comp, definitely attractive as a prospective employee.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:20
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Lol yep I try to preach pay transparency at every client I deal with. Some of them aren't the sharpest though.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:50
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hobbez posted:Thanks for this. She just responded and was like yep you would get 15k relo. She also told me there is a sign on bonus I wasn’t even aware of? Really appreciate how direct they have been about the comp, definitely attractive as a prospective employee. This is great news! Fingers crossed you get some bonus money in time for Christmas!
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Nov 29, 2023 01:11
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Question: how do you say if offered one job, that you're waiting to hear from another employer about a different role before making a decision? Or do you not say that at all, and just use another delaying tactic? I am going through reference checks for one role I really want, but still have an interview scheduled for tomorrow for a different role in case my first option falls through
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Nov 30, 2023 04:52
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Are you trying to just delay things or are you trying to get them to play off each other?
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Nov 30, 2023 05:42
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Lockback posted:Are you trying to just delay things or are you trying to get them to play off each other? Delay things. I want one confirmed before I make a decision on the other one. Both are public sector and NFP, so salary isn't negotiable anyway
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Nov 30, 2023 06:15
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Chewbecca posted:Delay things. I want one confirmed before I make a decision on the other one. Both are public sector and NFP, so salary isn't negotiable anyway Tell them in the interview you're in process with another agency and ask the timeline. That will help if you're given an offer to hold off (and make you appear more desirable). There's a chance the timelines don't line up in a reasonable way, you should think ahead what would happen if that occurs before you have an offer.
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Nov 30, 2023 14:13
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Chewbecca posted:Delay things. I want one confirmed before I make a decision on the other one. Both are public sector and NFP, so salary isn't negotiable anyway As another Aussie with experience in public sector and NFPs - you should absolutely be negotiating pay. While you won't get the pay elevated beyond the top of the band, you should still push to be starting at the highest step rather than coming in at the bottom of the band.
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Dec 1, 2023 09:36
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Lockback posted:Tell them in the interview you're in process with another agency and ask the timeline. That will help if you're given an offer to hold off (and make you appear more desirable). There's a chance the timelines don't line up in a reasonable way, you should think ahead what would happen if that occurs before you have an offer. Lucky for me they told me their timelines in the interview (decision on Monday, today is Friday) but no delaying tactic needed as I got a job offer this arvo!
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Dec 1, 2023 11:05
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Feeling a bit upbeat about my job hunt in that I've passed some significant parts of the interview and only a final panel interview remains. On giving me the good news that things were going well, the recruiter he noted that he was handing me off to a different, senior recruiter to prepare me for this final stage, which makes me suspect that there could be some discussion about salary and compensation. Up to this point there has been none at all. I take it that it's most ideal to have this discussion at the very end with offer in hand, but yea strikes be that there could be some discussion here. Interesting aspect of this job hunt is that this job requires a relocation, moving me from Canada to the USA. It strikes me that this gives me quite and ability to play dumb  when it comes to salary expectations as a way of pushing that conversation back or even having them put an offer first. There's some truth to it beyond a negotiating tactic. I literally don't know what [insert impressive sounding number] means in this particular state, given the significant differences in everything. I could spend all weekend going over the financial and tax details of this American jurisdiction vs mine in order to come up with the appropriate amount of money that I would want and need, or I could spend my time trying to actually prepare for the behavioural questions of the interview. The latter seems like a better use of time. If it makes sense to try to draw out a number from them, I'm curious what people think about the notion of playing dumb, saying I don't know what the costs are in this state, and asking to be compensated the same as similar other roles at the company. Or is it better for me to do my research and state the number I want? At the very least I do know what number would make sense for a role here in Canada, and so I will know that if it is below that that it is not worth a move. Along those lines, does it at all strike folks as reasonable that there should be a bit of an extra something here in order to encourage me to make this big move? If the compensation does end up being like the exact same as some job offered here in my home town, why would I move? It seems like a discussion point one could leverage if the compensation was low. Though going too far the company could end up asking itself why it is spending so much to relocate someone and could back out. Femtosecond fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 20:41
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At my last negotiation I flat out said I wouldn’t give them a number, I wanted to see their offer and also the entire benefits package at the same time. They wanted to hire me, so it was an effective strategy. I got at least 20k more than I would have by throwing out a number myself. If you’re going from Canada to the US you should see a massive comp increase btw. Industry dependant and all that, but anecdotally the states pays 50-100k more for the same position (I’m in now) at every company I’ve worked, and that’s not factoring in the difference in the value of our dollars.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:59
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It will depend a lot on industry though. That said, I think you should probably research and figure out a number but let them offer first. And keep in mind their offer doesn't need to be fair to make you move, it just needs to be enough to make you move. So don't fixate on what a fair offer would be, figure out what works be market and the maximize based on what's best for you. You gotta be willing to say no in order to effectively negotiate.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:41
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Not a negotiation question as such, but does anyone here know about salary packaging in Australia? My new employer offers it but idk how to make use of it It says it can be used on rent for example, so does that mean I supply the BSB and account my rent is paid into, and it's paid directly to them?
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Dec 5, 2023 04:04
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It'll depend on who the provider is, probably best to check their site directly. Some give you a card to use, others don't. Your employer should be giving you all this info. I will say, be careful if you have a HECS debt. My first job where I earned enough to be paying back HECS was at an NFP with salary packaging, and I ended up with a massive HECS bill at tax time. It was because the pre-tax deductions reduced my fortnightly income below the repayment threshold, so work didn't take any HECS repayments out. Then once EOFY hits, the ATO realises you still owe the money. Bee might know more!
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Dec 5, 2023 10:01
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Lucky for me my HECS debt is all paid off. I feel awful for people who are paying high interest at the moment on theirs But yes, company who provides the salary packaging is AccessPay, my employer sent a one page pdf with dot points as information. The PDF did mention a card you put money into for 'living expenses' plus additional money for accommodation and going out to restaurants (?!). On the surface of it, it sounds like free real estate, especially a card that can just be used for living expenses. Do the bills have to be in my name? (What if I'm on a lease with other people? Electricity in someone else's name?) It sounds amazing so there has gotta be something I am missing
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Dec 5, 2023 20:26
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hm well my "I dunno anything about this jurisdiction or market, let's talk about benefits" gambit did manage to get the recruiter to say their number first.... and it was incredibly low. I'm there sitting waiting to be blown away by BIG AMERICAN TECH SALARY and it's something that's only ~$10k higher from what I'm being paid right now in Canada (albeit in US dollars of course). All in all completely uninspiring. Unsure if incredible low ball by the recruiter here, or if the market has genuinely sunk this much since 2021 due to the huge amount of tech layoffs everywhere. Certainly a lot less inspired about the job at the moment. I suppose I'll go through the final interviews for practice and get a nice validation of my skills if they give me an offer, but respond in such an offer scenario that it's really not worth it to me to move unless the pay is 20k+ more.
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Dec 6, 2023 05:18
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If you feel comfortable sharing the salary and the general market we can probably tell you if they're lowballing you or not....
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Dec 6, 2023 06:31
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Femtosecond posted:hm well my "I dunno anything about this jurisdiction or market, let's talk about benefits" gambit did manage to get the recruiter to say their number first.... and it was incredibly low. I'm there sitting waiting to be blown away by BIG AMERICAN TECH SALARY and it's something that's only ~$10k higher from what I'm being paid right now in Canada (albeit in US dollars of course). All in all completely uninspiring. Pay in flyover isn't very high. SF, NY, Seattle are high. Chicago, Austin, LA, Boston, etc have a bipartite distribution of orgs where some pay close to SF rates and some pay flyover rates -- if you're in the wrong org you can literally 2-3x your salary just by switching. Weirdly not specific to sector. IME, the older the company is in the second tier areas the more likely their salary is garbage.
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Dec 6, 2023 17:02
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Also "It's $10k more but in US dollars" is a big difference, that's like 35% more if you mean the numerical amounts were the same. Outside of HCOL cities that's more or less what I would have expected. If you mean the converted value then I would guess that's a lowball but it depends. I have had employees in Canada for a long time and I don't at all see the pay difference Jordan7hm is talking about in the midwest.
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Dec 6, 2023 17:27
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Lockback posted:Also "It's $10k more but in US dollars" is a big difference, that's like 35% more if you mean the numerical amounts were the same. Outside of HCOL cities that's more or less what I would have expected. Top 1% income in Canada starts at like 250k CAD. Consulting is its own ballgame for sure. A manager at a big 4 firm can pull 200+ after bonus in the states. Best case scenario in Canada is probably 150. SM / director the difference is similar.
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Dec 6, 2023 17:54
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I don’t know how accurate level.fyi is but it seems like after exchange is factored in in my area it is usually +30-50% more in the US vs Canada. Just a huge difference. It was tempting to take a large offer from Amazon during pandemic times but it required being in office even before the RTO poo poo really got underway there. Overall glad I didn’t just for less upheaval to move, find housing etc. One thing I have heard at multiple companies is that the Canadian operations are extremely good value as far as productivity to cost (more favourable than India, even) so if it is a branch location it may be a fairly safe spot during hard times.
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Dec 6, 2023 18:02
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Median single earner income in the US is still only $50,000. I think most people here are above Median but if you were looking at a ~90k CAD job in Canada I'd expect it'd probably map more or less to $100k USD for most industries (again, outside of HCOL cities). There is a lot of variation though, but still that difference is still like 40% more. Not saying it means you should take the job or not but it may influence how you want to counter. I do know that some folks in Canada think junior developers start at $200k in Cleveland, which isn't true (no one actually lives in Cleveland).
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Dec 6, 2023 18:05
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Cleveland leads the nation in drifters!
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Dec 6, 2023 19:00
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Lockback posted:If you feel comfortable sharing the salary and the general market we can probably tell you if they're lowballing you or not.... Oh yeah whoops I thought I mentioned it was Austin before but looking at my previous post I just said "USA". Looking at levels.fyi for average "senior" salary for Austin and it's US$203k. quote:The average Senior Software Engineer salary range in Austin, TX is from $158,000 to $265,000. So in offering me ~$160 it's the bottom of the range. That seems like a low ball when I consider that this isn't a "Senior" gig, but for the role a promotion above that. (Staff? Starts to get fuzzy in the naming around this area as many companies do their own thing, but between Senior and top of the pyramid Principal) Lockback posted:Also "It's $10k more but in US dollars" is a big difference, that's like 35% more if you mean the numerical amounts were the same. Outside of HCOL cities that's more or less what I would have expected. Yea if we factor in exchange rate then it's a fair amount more money ($217k), though if we're looking at things this way, that my compensation is majorly deriving from exchange rate, then I'm incredibly incentivized to just work here for like a year (or until I've paid off my Canadian house and debts) and then run along home. If it was a remote gig it would be well worth it, but it's not. As it stands it seems like Austin and Vancouver are pretty similar when it comes to cost of living (buying a house in Austin is less, tho renting isn't), so seems like a very bad deal to go through the effort of a move for virtually no pay change.
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Dec 6, 2023 19:07
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Honestly you couldn’t pay me enough to move to Texas, island of sanity (Austin) or not. I’d probably only consider Seattle, Portland and possibly San Jose (meh).
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Dec 6, 2023 19:17
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160k is well within midlevel land
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Dec 6, 2023 19:50
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$160k base salary or all in? Does that include bonus/RSUs/etc? 160k base for a Senior 2 is not unreasonable, total comp that seems low. Levels.fyi lumps everything together even "soft" compensation like options. Keep in mind Texas has no state income tax too, so your take-home will be more than the salary increase.
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Dec 6, 2023 20:18
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yea total comp (well there's potentially a (not-annual) bonus, but there's so many strings around that and so fuzzy I'm just going to ignore it)
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Dec 7, 2023 00:34
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Kind of a weird post, but Im almost done with getting a city govt job to follow my federal retirement. I was lucky in that I've worked with this city division since last year. They submitted a pay waiver once I offered them my current annual pay document which is 80k more than their max. They couldn't ask for it and kinda implied I should offer it for the waiver memo. The deputy said "wow, I've never seen a top step approved before". Thanks to this thread, I am also negotiating a start date that will allow me to go on 3 months of terminal leave so I can collect double paychecks. They also said they'd be promoting me in 30 days, so I'd be making the same with my pension now. This promotion plus any pay increase is now a plus up to my total income. And I'm getting 2 days a week WFH with a second pension eligibility. I've been mostly lurking in here and appreciate your stories as I haven't applied for a job for real since 1999. Thank you all. Side note, there were less steps for me to get my current job with a full physical, polygraph, and TS clearance than with this one. Man, govt hiring can be exhausting.
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Dec 7, 2023 06:47
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That's kind of an astounding success story in government negotiating. Congrats!!
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Dec 7, 2023 14:31
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Thanks. To be clear, their max step is 140k which I got approved to be hired at. That's 80k less than what I'm being paid now, but, magically, the exact amount of my pension. What I didn't push back on or ask about was more time off. I kinda thought I was winning with the top step and plans for immediate promotion. If things go south, I can cancel my retirement too.
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Dec 7, 2023 18:29
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Evil SpongeBob posted:Thanks. To be clear, their max step is 140k which I got approved to be hired at. That's 80k less than what I'm being paid now, but, magically, the exact amount of my pension. IMO you shouldn't treat your pension as acceptable remuneration for an unrelated position. I'd keep looking for a better role; obviously take this one if you need it.
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Dec 7, 2023 20:14
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leper khan posted:IMO you shouldn't treat your pension as acceptable remuneration for an unrelated position. I'd keep looking for a better role; obviously take this one if you need it. I think he needs to leave his current job to get the pension, presumably he wants this job more than his current one.
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Dec 7, 2023 21:03
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Because I got bait and switched and am looking to move immediately after starting I broke rule #1 of this thread and said "just match what I'm on now" to a recruiter. I saw the job posted elsewhere today and I'll be leaving at least 50% of their range on the table. Let that be a lesson to everyone else.
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Dec 8, 2023 01:33
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I did it too, but nobody ever accused me of being smart, and I’d had no leads or luck for ages before I did that, so oh well. Left before they moved into the most soulless building I’ve ever seen, at least.
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Dec 8, 2023 02:01
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Lockback posted:I think he needs to leave his current job to get the pension, presumably he wants this job more than his current one. Yeah, pretty much. The federal pension does not go up much once eligible and I'm burned out and bored. Now I have the freedom to look for higher paying local govt jobs that do pay better as there's reciprocity between the retirement systems. I'm willing to take the pay cut for a better quality of life plus not being a second level supervisor anymore. Like what a lot of you said, it's easier to look for a job when you don't need one.
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Dec 8, 2023 06:25
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Not sure if this is the correct thread but, I'm out of work, was laid off a month ago. I'm doing interviews now and one place is intent on hiring ASAP, like by the 15th. I think I might do pretty well and get an offer, but it's for a lot less than my previous role, and the role isn't as good (qa/sdet contract with an emphasis on qa at the new place, vs sdet permanent for more money at my older job). My question is, how bad and dumb would it be to get the new job, keep on interviewing, and possibly leave the job within a couple of months or even weeks? I feel like I could get 20-30k more elsewhere if I carry on applying.
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Dec 8, 2023 18:39
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