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NotJustANumber99 posted:
I love that you just keep powering ahead on stuff like this. This thread belongs in the British museum once it's finished
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 15:38 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:40 |
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while you're at it you should install a proper water softener, idk how hard the water is in your area but it's the one thing i'll never regret installing in my flat
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 16:17 |
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 16:34 |
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Computer viking posted:I'm absolutely not familiar with the symbol usage here - are the Y things [overflow] drains, or teleports to another part of the diagram, or something else?
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 17:07 |
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vanity slug posted:while you're at it you should install a proper water softener, idk how hard the water is in your area but it's the one thing i'll never regret installing in my flat Seconded. Hard water is shite
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 17:33 |
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overly soft water, on the other hand, and you'll never get the shampoo out of your hair also probably don't want hard water going through the underfloor heating etc. and getting limescale in the little bitty parts so some kind of water treatment is wise I bet
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 17:59 |
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-I don't see any method of control for your DHW loop. -What temperature are you planning to keep the tank at and what temp do you want in your loop, and does your mixing valve support that delta? -do you expect significant storage temp fluctuating with your multiple heat source system? -assuming the two DHW manifold loops are the two wings of the house, you may end up with a bad bias in the recirculation of one side over the other unless you can throttle them independently. It's the first point that's a big deal. Using freedom numbers here, if your tank stores at 140 and you want 120 in the loop, something needs to stop your recirc pump. You can do that with a temperature control system, sort of. But this isn't enough. I think you really need to add a split connection out of your recirc pump, back to the cold inlet of the mixing valve. Check valves as needed. That's basically a diversion path- you then "balance" the system by restricting the proportion of hot loop water that can be pumped back into the storage tank/heater. If you don't do that, then you have a closed unstable loop. Sticking with my numbers before, your pump will see less than 120 in the loop and turn on. This will not push 120 out of the valve, rather it will just push 140 from the tank straight through the mixing valve. No fresh cold water is involved. The valve will fight this, and eventually lose. By diverting mostly-hot recirc water to take the place of your cold water at the mixing valve, you then just re introduce a small amount of hot water to "top up" the temperature in the loop. Not a plumber or plumbing systems engineer but I have dealt with a lot of (much larger) recirculation systems, and this is basically how they all burn out their mixing valves.
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 19:57 |
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For those who don't know the Y shaped bits are symbols for tundishes. Where you have a little funnel to catch water discharged by pressure relief valves, both so you can see it happening if you're looking and so you can be 100% sure that there isn't backflow. Two things I look at the system schematic in detail and see are: 1. the double check valve is drawn backwards, presumably you'll install it the right way round but the arrow part of it shows which way it lets water flow 2. You don't have a dosing pot so have no sensible way to get corrosion inhibitor/biocide into your heating system. That's one that I skipped on my own heating system install but it's only been 3 years so hasn't bitten me in the arse yet but definitely your overall design looks like you probably want to make sure you aren't needing to do pipework replacement in 10 years time due to it being full of a thick layer of green gunge. Still concerned that you are defaulting to routing pipework from the position where the heat pump won't work properly but I guess at this point that's on you really. I also don't have the will to try to trace your plantroom pipework layout where domestics and heating are in the same colour. It's worth remembering to allow enough space for the valves and pumps as they do end up taking up more space than you might expect.
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 20:00 |
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Mousus posted:For those who don't know the Y shaped bits are symbols for tundishes. Where you have a little funnel to catch water discharged by pressure relief valves, both so you can see it happening if you're looking and so you can be 100% sure that there isn't backflow. Right, so my first guess of "overflow drain" wasn't actually that far off - probably a good choice of symbol, then.
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 20:21 |
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Looks from the physical drawing you can plumb up the heat pump directly to the distribution right now? Thats what I would do so I didn't have to wait for shipping, (as long as you have some ofthe valves and pumps) but who knows.
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 23:26 |
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Leperflesh posted:A mitered picture frame can be cut on a table saw with some practice and a good jig or miter fence that everything is clamped to. This is the frame I made on my first attempt: I really enjoyed this explanation. Thank you.
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# ? Dec 6, 2023 23:39 |
Leperflesh posted:I wouldn't want to pick on Sticky Date because his piece is actually really nice, but, the one miter joint we can see in his first pic is flawed if you look closely, and that was done with supervision on a cabinet sized table saw. Yeah basically a 4-piece mitered frame, whether it's a picture frame or something like NJAN99 pictured, is just a huge test of accuracy: Your 45 degree angles have to be really drat close to perfectly 45 degrees. Your 90 degree angles (i.e. how square the 45 degree end is to the front/back edge) have to be really drat close to perfectly 90 degrees. Your timber pieces have to be really drat close to perfectly flat, straight, and the same thickness, and remain that way (warping after cutting is a thing). Your timber pieces have to be really drat close to the same length once cut - 0.1mm difference in length between parallel pieces will show a big obvious gap in the mitres. If *all* of those factors are *really* drat close to perfect, your mitered frame will look alright. If any of them are a tiny bit out, it'll look horrible and be very difficult to fix. Basically without specialist machinery for cutting miters, it's a real ball-ache.
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# ? Dec 7, 2023 02:14 |
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I think the buffer tank should be on the 'primary' side so that it can assist in buffering the DHW system too? Same comment on temperature control of the fluid, DHW and floor heating need different temperatures? With all these pumps and differing pressures control will be challenging. How much control can you have of the pump in the heat pump? Is it just on/off? This obviously has none of the valving detail, but if I was doing a primary/secondary pumping arrangement that requires differing temps I'd be doing it like this:
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# ? Dec 7, 2023 04:27 |
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The buffer vessel arrangement looks pretty fine to me. The point of the buffer vessel is just to ensure that your heat pump doesn't end up with too many compressor starts per hour as that is what ends up wearing one out. This means that you want a minimum water volume to heat up so cover the periods between uses without the system being completely dead during that period. On the heating side you're using the buffer vessel, on the domestic hot water side you are just relying on the volume of the water tank. The main reason for keeping them separate is that you'll want to run the heat pump at different temperatures for the heating and the hot water. 60C+ for the domestic hot water, ~45C for the underfloor heating. Whilst the underfloor heating has the pumped blending manifold to deal with getting it's water through to hot the heat pump is still more efficient the lower temperature the water it's supplying is. That means that making 60C water to just blend it down for the underfloor heating is a terrible waste and also means you don't want to heat up the whole heating buffer vessel to 60C whenever you want to produce domestic hot water. On the pumped domestic hot water I've been presuming that there will be thermostatic balancing valves on a wide selection of the loop points as they are exactly the sort of solve it with tech solution that is used on most of the rest of the house and do really quite a good job of balancing hot water system. Now that I've looked at it more closely I'm slightly surprised that the stove pump + valve arrangement doesn't look identical to the blending manifold one given that I think the point of it is to limit the water temperature sent out to the system, feels like pumping and having your blending valve on the cold side makes that slightly harder. I would expect that that is a manufacturers detail rather than something made up by NJAN99 (though if it isn't consider putting the pump on the hot side).
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# ? Dec 7, 2023 09:20 |
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I'm not ignoring all the posts. THinking about it. But I don't understand most of what everyone is saying, so I probably will ignore those bits. Anyway something like this. Still a bit fudged on some of the pumps and valves and things, but the general piperuns are starting to look tidy and doable. ok you can go there and look at it, at least: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/fbx-a0cc00670ef541f79c9fc4467f567fd2 hmmm doesnt embed, what kind of an amateur hour forums are we running here? NotJustANumber99 fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Dec 7, 2023 |
# ? Dec 7, 2023 22:48 |
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This kind of stuff I've found is very complex, particularly combining a heat pump with a wood boiler, it will be easier if the heat pump heats the floor and the wood boiler handles hot water and they're separate systems. As Mousus mentioned. If you want to combine the two heating methods it requires some careful thought, or it's easy to reduce the heat pumps COP, like it doesn't want to work to high temps, 55C max is the typical figure. You also don't want too warm water making it back to the heat pump as it can be damaged by too high return temps (or so everyone says anyway). A lot of people around here want a system that's basically a heat pump doing all the heating towards a single big buffer tank, imagine 5000 liters or more. Then they want, whenever the electricity is too expensive or it gets real cold, be able to fire up the wood boiler and let the heat pump rest. I've not yet been able to wrap myself around what the best system for that is, easiest is a manual shunt to remove the heat pump from the loop while using the wood boiler. There are other ways but honestly I don't understand them entirely, I stopped looking deeper because I realized I am not going to get a system like that in my house so why bother. That's my half-assed understanding of this topic anyway.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 07:20 |
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I wonder how much it would cost 99 to hire an expert to design and implement this sort of heating system, given its complexity I can't imagine it would be cheap.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 10:48 |
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Nova69 posted:I wonder how much it would cost 99 to hire an expert to design and implement this sort of heating system, given its complexity I can't imagine it would be cheap.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 12:22 |
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Slugworth posted:This is why if I ever need an appendectomy, I'm doing it myself. You can just get on to 99 and he'll do it for you in a Wickes carpark with a Dremel, in exchange for half a trunks worth of PVC pipe
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 12:36 |
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Failed Imagineer posted:You can just get on to 99 and he'll do it for you in a Wickes carpark with a Dremel, in exchange for half a trunks worth of PVC pipe loving deal
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 15:04 |
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the dremel is probably a chinese knockoff from ebay
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 15:07 |
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The Italians have cancelled the order for my little tank. The story seems to be they didn't think anyone would ever want one so never made any. Maybe if I wait until February they can do one, maybe. But that's not going to get me in by Christmas so I've asked a company how much to make much the same thing bespoke. So my plantroom plans are kind of up in the air again. Spent today tidying up in there and there's tonnes are stupid little jobs still to do before the heat pump is ever getting turned on. Great.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 16:47 |
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vanity slug posted:the dremel is probably a chinese knockoff from ebay Jamal-brand rotary tools are very reasonably priced.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 16:48 |
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vanity slug posted:the dremel is probably an Italian knockoff from ebay Fixed that for you.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 16:59 |
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NotJustANumber99 posted:The Italians have cancelled the order for my little tank. Demand they compensate you for wasting your time by then taking the order, that's ridiculous.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 17:20 |
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trevorreznik posted:Demand they compensate you for wasting your time by then taking the order, that's ridiculous. I'm sure 99 will prevail across national lines in getting Italians to pay for wasting someone's time. Give it a couple pages, he'll get them to agree to compensate him by building some floating vanities for him. But all the hardware will be metric and not the King's units, so it'll require three adapters to attach to the center of the earth via the foundations, one of which will be a repurposed spaghetti sauce jar lid, and another will be a Chinese knockoff from eBay made in the wrong type of plastic.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 17:46 |
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Nova69 posted:I wonder how much it would cost 99 to hire an expert to design and implement this sort of heating system, given its complexity I can't imagine it would be cheap.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 18:12 |
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NotJustANumber99 posted:The Italians have cancelled the order for my little tank. That's the most Italian thing ever
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 18:13 |
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Does nobody in the UK already mass produce a suitable tank? I know this came up when you were planning on buying something off the shelf from Italy, but now that we're talking artisanal bespoke tanks maybe it's time to shop around again?
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 19:46 |
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Mousus posted:The buffer vessel arrangement looks pretty fine to me. The point of the buffer vessel is just to ensure that your heat pump doesn't end up with too many compressor starts per hour as that is what ends up wearing one out. I'm struggling with that justification for the buffer vessel though. Compressor starts isn't going to be a problem because the heat pump is either going to be heating a 200l tank or a big chunk of concrete through the UFH, neither of which are five minute tasks. Ours probably runs for an hour to do the hot water and I have it on a four hour limit for the UFH because I forgot to install thermostat probes in the slab, so I have this to stop it running on and room temps overshooting. I thought the whole point of the buffer tank was to rinse the electricity supplier during negative pricing events? That can still be accomplished with an immersion in the main tank.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 19:54 |
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His Divine Shadow posted:This kind of stuff I've found is very complex, particularly combining a heat pump with a wood boiler, it will be easier if the heat pump heats the floor and the wood boiler handles hot water and they're separate systems. As Mousus mentioned. Yes. I think what he'll end up with is a manual shunt hooked up to electromechanical actuators that are controlled by the house computer. It's really the most elegant solution at this point.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 20:12 |
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Vim Fuego posted:Yes. I think what he'll end up with is a manual shunt hooked up to electromechanical actuators that are controlled by the house computer. It's really the most elegant solution at this point. I am quoting this to reference it later
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 21:45 |
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Phone posting from a Christmas party full of building services engineers who just had a good bemused laugh at the notion of getting a bespoke buffer tank rather than just working round the closest (rounding up) off the shelf solution so my answer will be a bit short.Endjinneer posted:I'm struggling with that justification for the buffer vessel though. Compressor starts isn't going to be a problem because the heat pump is either going to be heating a 200l tank or a big chunk of concrete through the UFH, neither of which are five minute tasks. Ours probably runs for an hour to do the hot water and I have it on a four hour limit for the UFH because I forgot to install thermostat probes in the slab, so I have this to stop it running on and room temps overshooting. On the coldest days the buffer vessel isn't doing anything as there is a full heating load. The buffer vessel only has a job to do when it's 'a bit cold', not very cold, so you need some heating but not the full output. In the middle of working you don't have a cold slab of concrete anymore you have a warm (but not quite warm enough) one. The thing with taking free electricity is purely with domestic hot water cylinders as you have 50°C temperature difference to dump the heat into rather than the 10°C you have to work with on the heating. You need to start messing about with phase change materials to get anything useful storage wise on small temperature differences.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 22:19 |
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did you at least show them my spinny around model with all the pipes on it though?
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 22:25 |
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Sadly haven't managed to get the model to load on my phone so haven't even looked at it myself yet.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 22:36 |
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ok, If they saw that I'm pretty sure they'd all nod in austere agreement that truly this guy has got it.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 22:38 |
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Countdown to messing about with phase change materials
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 23:07 |
I propose installing a bunker under the plant room to house a thorium salt reactor.
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 23:14 |
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That's obviously going under either the angry fence neighbor or the pub. Can't intrude into the missile silo like foundation of the house
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# ? Dec 8, 2023 23:47 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:40 |
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Is this the prototype for your heating system?
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# ? Dec 9, 2023 01:47 |