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Kchama posted:I’d rather they not, yaknow, take anyone. I think that’d be extremely obvious. Don’t kidnap people, period. Okay so now we're against taking occupying forces as prisoners? Where did you learn about war? The Patriot? E: I've never seen The Patriot (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Grem fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 09:05
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Grem posted:Okay so now we're against taking occupying forces as prisoners? ... Ten month old babies are 'occupying forces'? Since that's the kidnapping we're talking about. Not literally everyone living in Israel is an 'occupying force'. I mean you were the one just replying about that, so you know about the baby! It just seems like you're doing anything you can to justify it, when I doubt you'd justify it if any other group was doing it. EDIT: ... So yes, you're just doing whatever you can to justify it. According to Hamas, the family died in captivity including the children. So I guess they got a lesson in good manners. Kchama fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 09:23
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The adults in Israel are wrong for occupying Palestinian land. Hamas took them prisoner. You'd rather they leave the baby to chance, it seems? Sounds cruel but go off. Yes, every adult living in Israel is an occupying force.
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Dec 9, 2023 09:29
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Kchama posted:
That's wild maybe Israel should stop indiscriminately bombing Gaza to prevent further tragedies. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 9, 2023 09:39
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Grem posted:That's wild maybe Israel should stop indiscriminately bombing Gaza to prevent further tragedies. So is Hamas just like, never responsible for their own actions? Yeah, Israel sucks and shouldn't be bombing in the first place, and their government should be changed for one isn't evil to the core. But at some point, you make yourself enough of a villain that people lose sympathy. I care and sympathize with the Palestinians 100%. But Hamas makes it hard to sympathize with HAMAS. Because that family wouldn't have been there if they hadn't kidnapped them and dragged them to their country.
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Dec 9, 2023 09:43
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I think the person responsible for dropping the bomb on the baby is the nation that dropped the bomb on the baby.
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Dec 9, 2023 09:49
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Kchama posted:So is Hamas just like, never responsible for their own actions? Yeah, Israel sucks and shouldn't be bombing in the first place, and their government should be changed for one isn't evil to the core. But at some point, you make yourself enough of a villain that people lose sympathy. I care and sympathize with the Palestinians 100%. But Hamas makes it hard to sympathize with HAMAS. Finally, someone brave enough to condemn Hamas when Israel drops a bomb. I think we've reached the peak "but will you condemn Hamas" discourse.
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Dec 9, 2023 10:29
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Grem posted:The adults in Israel are wrong for occupying Palestinian land. Hamas took them prisoner. You'd rather they leave the baby to chance, it seems? Sounds cruel but go off. Yes, every adult living in Israel is an occupying force. Do you live in a country with stolen land where your race is different than those who are native to the land? If so, would you be chill with your family getting abducted/held hostage? If not, try to put yourself in someone’s shoes who was born somewhere and is just trying to exist. That’s what a lot of people do in a number of countries in the world, including where I live (US). And I don’t think that they should be abducted/held hostage for it Kalit fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 10:38
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Kalit posted:Do you live in a country with stolen land where your race is different than those who are native to the land? If so, would you be chill with your family getting abducted/held hostage? I think they should. If the Natives where the United States is rose up to grt their land back I'm pretty confident I'd support them fully, yea. E: I guess I shouldn't let D&D posters dox me. Grem fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 10:42
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Grem posted:I think they should. If the Natives where the United States is rose up to grt their land back I'm pretty confident I'd support them fully, yea. I said put yourself in someone else’s shoes if you’re not in that situation . Based on your verbiage of this post and your pre-edited post, it sounds like you’re not a Native American living in the US. So, of course it’s easy to say “sure I’d support it” when you don’t have a strong connection to people who just happened to be born somewhere. Kalit fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 10:53
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Kalit posted:I said put yourself in someone else’s shoes if you’re not in that situation . Based on your verbiage of this post and your pre-edited post, it sounds like you’re not a Native American living in the USA. So, of course it’s easy to say “sure I’d support it” when you don’t have a strong connection to people who just happened to be born somewhere. I don't sympathize with colonizers
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Dec 9, 2023 10:56
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Kalit posted:I said put yourself in someone else’s shoes if you’re not in that situation . Based on your verbiage of this post and your pre-edited post, it sounds like you’re not a Native American living in the US. So, of course it’s easy to say “sure I’d support it” when you don’t have a strong connection to people who just happened to be born somewhere. if native americans want to be my landlord im gonna support them 100%
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Dec 9, 2023 12:08
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i thought whataboutism was against dnd rules
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Dec 9, 2023 12:14
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A big flaming stink posted:if native americans want to be my landlord im gonna support them 100% I don’t know why you’re bringing up Native Americans being your landlord. We’re talking about [non-native] civilians being abducted/held hostage for just living in a country on stolen land. Not just simply being prevented from owning property/land (if that was what you were insinuating) Kalit fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 12:21
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Kchama posted:So is Hamas just like, never responsible for their own actions? Yeah, Israel sucks and shouldn't be bombing in the first place, and their government should be changed for one isn't evil to the core. But at some point, you make yourself enough of a villain that people lose sympathy. I care and sympathize with the Palestinians 100%. But Hamas makes it hard to sympathize with HAMAS. Not so long as the government of Israel is exerting control over Palestine. Until Palestine is free whatever Hamas does is irrelevant... or, more correctly, is also something the government of Israel is guilty of.
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Dec 9, 2023 13:44
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Shofixti posted:I’ve had people in my circle taking an interest in the history of Israel/Palestine and wanting to read a book. Are there any recommendations for a book that is accessible to someone with minimal prior knowledge? Palestine: A four thousand year history - Nur Masalha The 100 years' war on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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Dec 9, 2023 13:48
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Kalit posted:would you be chill with your family getting abducted/held hostage? Thank you for this opportunity for mental clarity. Feels great to be the good guy (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 9, 2023 14:08
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Jai Guru Dave posted:If that happened, I’d want thousands of Lakota children murdered, and every one of their hospitals destroyed. I also think the best way to rescue my family would be to bomb them every day for two months. Where did I endorse Israel’s genocidal response? As we’ve gone over multiple times ITT, criticism of Hamas is not an endorsement of Israel’s reaction. Stop making up stances that I never posted 
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Dec 9, 2023 14:19
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I guess we can add MSF to the growing list of organizations the US and Israel will consider antisemitic https://twitter.com/MSF/status/1733402855741026774?t=hJiHrRhj2CQbu8X8sPF2Ow&s=19
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Dec 9, 2023 15:56
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Grem posted:Yes, every adult living in Israel is an occupying force. I think it'd obvious you don't literally mean all of them - Palestinians living in Israel's occupied territories, which are functionally part of Israel, aren't an occupying force, they're the occupied people. And it's ridiculous to say that Palestinian citizens of Israel are an "occupying force" just because they managed to get some legal recognition from the state which colonized their nation. Can we more specifically define which adults are part of the occupying force and have no right to safety or the safety of their children? Here's the bottom line for me on these slapfights. I grew up being taught that it was wrong for America to atomically bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and firebomb Dresden, because a person's right to life isn't voided by their belonging to an evil state. And I still believe that, and I don't see how it's different in the Israeli context. I can understand "yes it's horrible but this is what we have to do to achieve the safety and freedom of many, many more Palestinians" but I can't understand, or I guess can't tolerate, "no these people actually aren't entitled to safety because their state is very evil and they haven't distinguished themselves from it enough." We're talking about people who are reliant on an evil state, and they're responding how normal people do in that situation - by mostly going along with it, sometimes with token resistance, rarely with meaningful resistance, sometimes complying with horror and often with enthusiasm. Because this is the one country and one state that they have, and they've been marinating in its propaganda their whole lives, and they're just not woke or brave enough to really break from it. That's very sad but it's normal - most people aren't Sophie Scholl. So to say that's enough to lose your human right not to be kidnapped or killed is - I don't know the right word, I think it's just very inhuman. It's as if it's only extraordinary people who truly count as civilians, or as people who are entitled to not being shot or kidnapped. And of course it's the precise logic deployed by the IDF in their decades-long "the civilians are not really civilians because they don't recognize our sovereignty/voted for Hamas/pay taxes/cheer on their troops" campaign. EDIT: see the post immediately below mine, where the user says they've been encountering people who blame all Jews for Israel's atrocities and that the user struggles to articulate why this is wrong. This for me is a good reason (on both principle and self-interest) to resist the idea that sufficient association with the Israeli state is enough to deprive a non-combatant of their rights. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 16:05
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Frequent guest on the panel discussion of a local NPR station blamed progressives leftists and college campuses for the rise in antisemitism. Strong "you're with us or against us" vibes. In fact over the weeks I've heard her (and others) drop IDF talking points ("Why isn't the media reporting on them using a hospital for their terror command center!?!?!?") without pushback, though admittedly I'm only able to catch parts of the program. I almost want to write in to point out that, uh, that kind of rhetoric is not going to help fight antisemitism. In fact the reflexive defense of tying Jewishness and zionism and Israel all together sort of guarantees antisemitism in turn. But I'm not Jewish. There is a real atmosphere of "if you criticize Israel in the presence of a Jewish individual you are dealing in hate". When my criticisms about what Israel has done and is doing are met with exclamations about october 7th, it's hard for me not to dismiss that person as somebody who condones Israel's actions. Who wants bloody indiscriminate revenge on a subjugated people. So their accusations of me not worrying about their safety are not unwarranted. Nobody should be targeted for their religion, antisemitism is indefensible. But "people in Gaza? They voted for Hamas they can live with that! What about ME?!?!?" Is a disgusting stance for an individual to take. That being said, I've also ran into people I've had to push back against in the other direction. Had some folks complain about not being able to criticize Israel without being called antisemitic (true), and then segue into "the Jews own the media/banks and want revenge for [history]". It's hard to dissuade them from this as there are elements of "truth" to the narrative (they can gesture and point to some specifics, which means nothing if you don't already buy into it), but for the alleged conspiratorial hivemind of the jews. Trying to talk somebody out of that is supremely difficult when individuals in the media are still trying to make Israel and Jewishness one inseparable thing. Even as problematic as that is, I've not encountered support or desire for violence against the Jewish people, thankfully.
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Dec 9, 2023 16:14
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Kalit posted:Where did I endorse Israel’s genocidal response? As we’ve gone over multiple times ITT, criticism of Hamas is not an endorsement of Israel’s reaction. Stop making up stances that I never posted Thanks for your help with that mote in my eye
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Dec 9, 2023 17:07
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Kalit posted:Do you live in a country with stolen land where your race is different than those who are native to the land? If so, would you be chill with your family getting abducted/held hostage? As much as I'm sure we all hate the United $nake$ of Amerikkka, israel's relationship to Palestine very different from Americans living on indigenous land. I can talk all day about the evil that saturates America's foundation -- but -- to the best of my knowledge the US government is not currently indiscriminately bombing a walled-off Cherokee concentration camp of millions of people, nor does it have an apartheid system built to subjugate, specifically, indigenous Americans. America has not bussed in white New Englanders to literally steal homes and property from native indigenous tribes not just in living memory, but in recent months. If that were the case, and myself and my family was abducted because we had recently stolen a house held for generations by an indigenous American family and they were trying to get some sort of leverage or bargaining chip to forestall their ethnic cleansing, I might not be having a good time, but I'd have to admit that they've got a point. It's a shame that anyone has to get taken hostage, sure, but israeli settlers are not just "people who live in israel", they are a weapon of the depraved, genocidal zionist entity that is used as a tool for ethnic cleansing. That children and babies get caught up in it is a tragedy, but the ultimate responsibility for what happens to them lies with their parents and the psychopathic government that establishes these settlements. Also, thanks to whoever got mad enough to give me a custom title. I stand by that statement 100%.
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Dec 9, 2023 17:13
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Grem posted:The adults in Israel are wrong for occupying Palestinian land. Hamas took them prisoner. You'd rather they leave the baby to chance, it seems? Sounds cruel but go off. Yes, every adult living in Israel is an occupying force. Ah yes, the Maria Lvova-Belova defense. The proper thing to do in this situation, even if you support taking hostages (which is hosed imo), is to leave at least one parent, preferably the mother. But this conversation is gross.
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Dec 9, 2023 17:14
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Another group of brazilian nationals and their relatives was allowed to leave Gaza. However, this time the israeli government decided to twist the knife and denied passage to several members of the same families, splitting them. Many approved people decided to stay behind with their relatives who were denied leave. 112 people were contemplated to leave, but only 85 actually came out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhoQ3c6lzY The whole discussion about Hamas at this point is nothing but a smokescreen and a diversion, deliberate or otherwise. For over a month, all the corpses and the horror people see come from one side, the the propaganda and "it's complicated" mill needs to churn out -something-, so people latch onto unverified episodes of horrific violence (go to Twitter and you can find 'reports' of angel-face israeli girls being raped 'until their pelvis broke', of babies put in ovens and worse) to justify the horrors of today, whuch they support either overtly or tacitly. It's entirely possible, even likely, that the Oct 7 attacks involved sexual abuse. It does not ecuse the current course of events even slightly, and the fact that those in authority and their boosters resort to it is horrendous. There's literally people claiming with no basis that the remaining hostages in Hamas captivity are not released because they are being sexually abused and will continue to be, which 1-) no freed hostage had alleged, and 2-) Has now done additional violence to these people because if they get released, they'll be marked with the stigma of sxual abuse forever. Playing the game of 'perfect victim' is always a fool's errand. It's absurd morally and tactically to try to jump through the hoops imposed by your occupier and oppressor in order to be considered legitimate. A peaceful march to throw rocks at an aparteid walls, like in 2018? Horrendous! Have 200 of your people murdered and 10,000 injured, with israeli snipers competing to run the biggest knee-shot tally (winner:43). Refaat Alareer was entirely correct when he posited that the only proested Israel will accept is to walk into the ocean and die. Because he said it in english, the IDF murdered him and his family, in a targeted strike, in the last 72 hours. former CNN commentator Erick Erickson gloated about it online. Even loving _Russia_ hasn't run the tally of slain journalists, aid workers and children the IDF has, and their criminal war has been going on 5 times as long. I don't know if the most popular pop song in Moscow is a bop about killing Ukranians, but the top hit in Israel -is- about butchering palestinians. My worst nightmare is that as the illusion of international law erodes further, soon it will be my country under sanctions or bombardment, and in a very similar manner, people will be splitting hairs, listing all the ways we are icky and different and vaguely criminal that earned us the bombs, so they can just go on with their day and allow another massacre to occur. Assuming they aren't cheering for it.
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Dec 9, 2023 17:19
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to be fair, Native people are still subject to systemic and direct violence in the united states but i understand the comparison to a whole different situation is fraught
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Dec 9, 2023 17:21
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:As much as I'm sure we all hate the United $nake$ of Amerikkka, israel's relationship to Palestine very different from Americans living on indigenous land. I can talk all day about the evil that saturates America's foundation -- but -- to the best of my knowledge the US government is not currently indiscriminately bombing a walled-off Cherokee concentration camp of millions of people, nor does it have an apartheid system built to subjugate, specifically, indigenous Americans. America has not bussed in white New Englanders to literally steal homes and property from native indigenous tribes not just in living memory, but in recent months. The people who got kidnapped are not settlers, unless you're defining all Jewish citizens of Israel as settlers. There are no settlements in or near Gaza following the withdrawal in 2005. While the settlement enterprise certainly deserves plenty of criticism, it's currently present exclusively in the West Bank.
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Dec 9, 2023 17:24
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Kalit posted:Where did I endorse Israel’s genocidal response? As we’ve gone over multiple times ITT, criticism of Hamas is not an endorsement of Israel’s reaction. Stop making up stances that I never posted Because this isn't an equal-sided conflict. Israel and Hamas are not peers - the former is a genocidal occupying force and the latter is the occupied resistance. The onus is entirely on the former to end the occupation, not on the latter to behave properly according to comfortable western liberals until their oppressors stop oppressing them out of the goodness of their hearts. This isn't meant to excuse any crimes that Hamas has committed, but to highlight the fact that they are largely irrelevant in the face of an actual genocide. In a vacuum, where both sides are equal and human history began two months ago, Hamas's actions would be seen as abhorrent. But that simply isn't the case. I've asked you this before and I've never gotten a response: what is your point in raising all these concerns about the alleged crimes of the party that is resisting an ongoing genocide? More directly, if the allegations are true, then what do you think the appropriate response from Israel should be?
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Dec 9, 2023 17:26
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the underlying issue is always going to be the existence of the concentration camp, not the violent groups that rise up from within that concentration camp
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Dec 9, 2023 17:35
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Fister Roboto posted:Because this isn't an equal-sided conflict. Israel and Hamas are not peers - the former is a genocidal occupying force and the latter is the occupied resistance. The onus is entirely on the former to end the occupation, not on the latter to behave properly according to comfortable western liberals until their oppressors stop oppressing them out of the goodness of their hearts. This isn't meant to excuse any crimes that Hamas has committed, but to highlight the fact that they are largely irrelevant in the face of an actual genocide. In a vacuum, where both sides are equal and human history began two months ago, Hamas's actions would be seen as abhorrent. But that simply isn't the case. Sorry for not responding before, it seemed like a rhetorical question. Israel should stop the genocide, obviously? Do you think that Hamas should be able to commit any action without moral responsibility in the current context [of undergoing a genocide]? If you do, fine. I certainly don’t think so, which is why I push back against people ITT who voice support of things like abducting civilians. And to be explicit, yes, of course I feel that way for kidnapping/abducting/arresting [without charging] civilians by Israel as well. Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 17:40
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Kalit posted:Sorry for not responding before, it seemed like a rhetorical question. Israel should stop the genocide, obviously? I believe that people have the right to resist genocide by any means necessary. Because genocide is such a heinous crime, that means that resistance could include actions that, in a vacuum, would also be heinous. Again, it is entirely the responsibility of Israel to end the genocide and occupation of Palestine. And you apparently agree with me, because you rightly believe that the only appropriate response is to end the genocide. So why keep raising these concerns over Hamas? You're contradicting yourself by saying that Hamas shouldn't be able to "commit any action without moral responsibility" while also acknowledging that the only appropriate response is irrelevant to that moral responsibility. Here's my overall point: if you truly oppose genocide, then it is not morally appropriate to highlight the alleged crimes of the people being genocided. That's just helping to justify the genocide, whether you're aware of it or not. If we were back in the holocaust and someone kept saying that they had some concerns about Jewish resistance groups raping women and killing babies (but they don't approve of what the nazis are doing either), that would obviously be reprehensible. Once Palestine is free, then we can have a conversation about Hamas's crimes.
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Dec 9, 2023 18:07
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And there we have it. Some people believe literally any act committed by Hamas, no matter how horrific is acceptable because Israel is committing genocide. Some people do not think so.
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Dec 9, 2023 18:17
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"acceptable" isn't really the right word. Hamas' atrocities are a natural and unavoidable consequence of a genocidal occupation. That's not to say they are good or acceptable.
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Dec 9, 2023 18:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:And there we have it. Some people believe literally any act committed by Hamas, no matter how horrific is acceptable because Israel is committing genocide. Some people do not think so. I'll ask you the same question I asked Kalit, who was kind enough to respond in earnest: what do you think should be the appropriate response to Hamas's alleged crimes?
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Dec 9, 2023 18:34
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DeadlyMuffin posted:And there we have it. Some people believe literally any act committed by Hamas, no matter how horrific is acceptable because Israel is committing genocide. Some people do not think so. I don't know why you find this so shocking. No-one here is really trying to hide how much they approve of everything Hamas has done. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 9, 2023 18:50
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punishedkissinger posted:"acceptable" isn't really the right word. Hamas' atrocities are a natural and unavoidable consequence of a genocidal occupation. That's not to say they are good or acceptable. This is my take as well. Palestinians are facing an existential threat not unlike what the Jews were up against in Germany in the mid 20th century. I don't condone all of those actions, but frankly my privileged American opinion matters little and I generally do not care about the plight of Israeli occupiers.
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Dec 9, 2023 19:09
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Fister Roboto posted:Here's my overall point: if you truly oppose genocide, then it is not morally appropriate to highlight the alleged crimes of the people being genocided. That's just helping to justify the genocide, whether you're aware of it or not. Fister Roboto posted:I'll ask you the same question I asked Kalit, who was kind enough to respond in earnest: what do you think should be the appropriate response to Hamas's alleged crimes? I don't think the ends justify any means. Your stance not only excuses but justifies literally anything, which I find incredibly immoral. It's a little bit of an aside, but I also think Hamas's actions that we were discussing do not help end the genocide. I do not think taking 10 month olds hostage and sexually assaulting people helps them win their struggle. I don't think Allied armies raping women or mutilating the dead in WW2 helped them win their struggle either, or resistance fighters committing the same crimes, to use your example. In my opinion the appropriate, moral, response to Hamas fighters committing crimes/atrocities would be for the leadership of Hamas or whatever passes for a chain of command to hold the people who commit these crimes responsible for them. I see no sign of that, or any indication that if Hamas were to somehow come out on top that this would be the case. I genuinely question the ethics of someone who would not only refuse to contemn those actions but would refuse to even talk about them. I answered your question, so please answer mine: is there anywhere that you would actually draw the line? is there any crime a Hamas fighter could do that could be so terrible that it should actually be highlighted? Madkal posted:I don't know why you find this so shocking. No-one here is really trying to hide how much they approve of everything Hamas has done. I'm not expressing shock, I'm just pointing out the impasse.
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Dec 9, 2023 19:23
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punishedkissinger posted:"acceptable" isn't really the right word. Hamas' atrocities are a natural and unavoidable consequence of a genocidal occupation. That's not to say they are good or acceptable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifVybe3-5aE I know it's possible to make these decisions, because Hamas took prisoners and made the choice not to shoot them. But if the guy just shoots the prisoner, you can say that's also unavoidable. But I think most of these arguments are a dodge for the fact that, ultimately, when you're standing there with a gun and there's a person, whether to shoot that person is a decision that a person makes, and everyone is responsible for what they do in the end.
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Dec 9, 2023 19:27
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I just want to point out that the suicide bombing specifically did achieve the political goal of ending the ongoing settlement of Gaza
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Dec 9, 2023 19:43
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Kalit posted:Sorry for not responding before, it seemed like a rhetorical question. Israel should stop the genocide, obviously? It's the responsibility of Israel to protect their civilians. By oppressing the Palestinians and throw 2 million of their people into an open air prison, they are intentionally creating unsafe conditions for their own civilians. The Palestinians have a right to fight back without morale judgment, because their very existence is on the line. The conditions in Gaza before October 7, was that the city was uninhabitable, they were living in inhumane uninhabitable conditions according to the U.N. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19391809 Israel intentionally created those conditions, they were warned by the U.N. this would happen and they ignored it. People were dying just because of the water, there was no drinkable water in Gaza that is how bad the situation had gotten before October 7.
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Dec 9, 2023 19:54
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