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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:There are two choices. Biden is the less bad one. Not voting for him helps the worse choice win. That’s all there is to it. That's not all there is to it, though. Biden is actively supporting war crimes and genocide. Biden is actively refusing to address material conditions and has taken away the support Americans previously had, and has failed to deliver material improvements that were main planks of his campaign. The only power we have as voters is voting for someone else or withholding our votes. That's our lever of power. "The other guy is worse" hasn't worked and has resulted in increasingly bad economic and social conditions for everyone in America. This is a pushover mindset.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:11
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FistEnergy posted:That's not all there is to it, though. Biden is actively supporting war crimes and genocide. Biden is actively refusing to address material conditions and has taken away the support Americans previously had, and has failed to deliver material improvements that were main planks of his campaign. The only power we have as voters is voting for someone else or withholding our votes. That's our lever of power. "The other guy is worse" hasn't worked and has resulted in increasingly bad economic and social conditions for everyone in America. This is a pushover mindset. Not electing the less worse candidate is why abortion has been banned in several states. Not electing Clinton resulted in women being jailed for abortions and increasing bans on trans people.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:16
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Fart Amplifier posted:Not electing the less worse candidate is why abortion has been banned in several states. Not electing Clinton resulted in women being jailed for abortions and increasing bans on trans people. Also it resulted in a certain embassy moving to a certain city in a certain country which probably helped spur this current crisis
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Dec 9, 2023 22:24
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Fart Amplifier posted:Not electing the less worse candidate is why abortion has been banned in several states. Not electing Clinton resulted in women being jailed for abortions and increasing bans on trans people. Roe could have been codified at multiple points during Democratic control of government. They chose not to do so. American workers and working conditions have steadily eroded over the past 40 years and the Democrats led the globalization & capitalist charge that did the damage. If you believe real change and improvement is not possible under Democrats or Republicans - as I firmly do - then the only rational and moral choice is to vote for a third party. In the short term it is a protest and a concrete sign of dissatisfaction with the current regime, and in the long term it helps build the nucleus for a realistic third choice in American government. Warren supporters famously said "She's electable if you vote for her!". Let's apply that logic and enthusiasm to future candidates and parties. The Democrats are supporting genocide *right now*. The Democrats are eroding the safety net and failing to deliver on campaign promises *right now*. That's much more persuasive to me than the tired old strategy of gesturing at Trump or another Republican boogeyman. FistEnergy fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 22:28
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Voting for POTUS is a question of who is the better candidate. No candidate is perfect - even if we were to take a poll among goons, we couldn't reach a consensus on what a perfect POTUS would be, how their administration would function, which policies they'd support, etc. The situation is too complex for a binary vote to be an absolute victory or loss. In the anticipated 2024 election of Biden vs. Trump, I personally believe that Biden will enact more policies that benefit myself and this country, so that where I expect my vote will go if there are no major changes in the next 11 months. If you believe that genocide is the single worse crime that can be committed, and that by voting for Biden you are voting for genocide, then you have to ask what, if anything, would Trump do differently? You also must recognize that if you're voting based on Biden's stance on Israel alone, then you're now a single issue voter. To each their own. Edit: ^^ Also this. If you believe that no improvement is possible under a government run by Republicans or Democrats, then vote third party. ^^
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Dec 9, 2023 22:28
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Angry_Ed posted:Also it resulted in a certain embassy moving to a certain city in a certain country which probably helped spur this current crisis quote:If I am chosen by New Yorkers to be their senator, or in whatever position I find myself in the years to come, you can be sure that I will be an active, committed advocate for a strong and secure Israel, able to live in peace with its neighbors, with the United States Embassy located in its capital, Jerusalem.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:29
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FistEnergy posted:Roe could have been codified at multiple points during Democratic control of government. They chose not to do so. American workers and working conditions have steadily eroded over the past 40 years and the Democrats led the globalization & capitalist charge that did the damage. There were very very few times they had a filibuster proof majority to codify Roe, basically what 40-50 days during the Obama administration. But as you seem to already throwing minorities under the bus so you can feel good about your protest vote I don't think facts matter much here. mawarannahr posted:The other candidate also committed to doing the same. Have a quote that's not from 1999? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 9, 2023 22:32
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mawarannahr posted:The other candidate also committed to doing the same. Good thing there's more than two candidates, no matter how hard the media and the voter tribes on Twitter try to insist otherwise. Simply vote for the candidate that you believe is the least bad/closest to good.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:39
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socialsecurity posted:There were very very few times they had a filibuster proof majority to codify Roe, basically what 40-50 days during the Obama administration. But as you seem to already throwing minorities under the bus so you can feel good about your protest vote I don't think facts matter much here. Minorities are constantly being thrown under the bus by Biden and the Democrats right now. Look at the migrant camps on the Mexican border. They haven't gone away. Turn on your TV and observe in horror as the US casually abets and participates in the genocide of minorities in Gaza. Your argument is hollow and you're falling back on emotion and personal attacks. Minorities are being herded into camps and blown into pieces with Biden's blessing and enthusiastic support *right now*. Not sure facts are on your side here. They're on your TV and social media feed at this very moment.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:39
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socialsecurity posted:Have a quote that's not from 1999? Yes https://web.archive.org/web/20080605143856/http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/israel/ quote:From her first trip to Israel on New Year’s Day in 1982 through her years as a U.S. Senator, Hillary Clinton has a long history of strong and steadfast leadership for the US-Israel relationship. Her connection to the State of Israel, which began when as the First Lady of Arkansas, she brought an innovative Israeli preschool education program to her state, has grown, and today, she stands as one of Israel’s leading defenders and supporters in the United States Senate.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:41
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If you’ve identified where the candidates are exactly the same, find where they’re different and see if you can morally accept either choice.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:45
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Wayne Knight posted:If you’ve identified where the candidates are exactly the same, find where they’re different and see if you can morally accept either choice. No it's better to ignore the actual things the candidates do so you can pretend they are exactly the same. mawarannahr posted:Yes Still old but close enough to 2016, Hilldawg sucked in so many ways.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:48
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Gnumonic posted:That leaves 2). I get the sense that many (if not most) posters here believe that, actually, it is morally acceptable to vote for someone who supports, enables, and facilitates genocide. Presumably, those who hold that view have a strong justification for it. I'd really like to hear that justification spelled out explicitly. FistEnergy posted:That's our lever of power. You're pulling a lever that's not connected to anything. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 22:57
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FistEnergy posted:Roe could have been codified at multiple points during Democratic control of government. They chose not to do so. American workers and working conditions have steadily eroded over the past 40 years and the Democrats led the globalization & capitalist charge that did the damage. A codified Roe would probably not survive the Trump SCOTUS, and the left rationally voting for third parties got the USA into Iraq, got abortion banned in places, got trans kids banned in places, and has not increased the chance of a third party forming government above zero percent.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:57
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I really don't have any memory of the Freedom of Choice Act being a major legislative priority. There is that Obama quote about "signing it on day 1" but that was a pandering statement at a Planned Parenthood event, not a response to some overwhelming demand from Democratic voters for a law protecting abortion. Maybe I'm wrong about that... but it seems like some real Monday morning quarterback stuff. The NPR piece linked below says there was a push in 1992, but doesn't say anything about the 2007 version spurring much interest (it never made it out of committee after Obama took office and everybody was laser focused on the ACA.) I went to look for some more info on the politics of the issue at the time of the supermajority and found a couple of things. Here is something, circa the Dobbs decision, from the (right wing) National Review saying that no abortion law passed because moderate members and more pro-abortion members couldn't agree on the scope of protections. This NPR article has a bit of a different take, saying that the issue has been more than there have been too many Democrats, historically, who have been waffly on abortion to pass the laws through the Senate. Which, if you think about it, could be describing the same dynamic that NR is, from a different perspective. But in any case that issue isn't really reflected in the current caucus, where every member has a 100 score from Planned Parenthood except Manchin (50) and Schumer (also 50 - although I don't think he's any bit anti-abortion so it's probably docked for procedural stuff about advancing abortion bills as leader.)
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Dec 9, 2023 23:13
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I would suggest not taking seriously claims that any moral person is obligated not to vote for Biden, nor would I try to browbeat the posters making the claims. I can't think of a bigger waste of time. The moral outrage tends to be conditional based on the actors involved, undermining its righteous indignation. Even if you ignore that, either the poster making the claim is being genuine, in which case you're not going to convince them with some utilitarian argument, or they're not, and a response is pointless anyway. It seems about as productive as arguing with a bunch of /pol/ posters about freeze peach.
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Dec 9, 2023 23:15
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Quixzlizx posted:I would suggest not taking seriously claims that any moral person is obligated not to vote for Biden, nor would I try to browbeat the posters making the claims. I can't think of a bigger waste of time. TBH, this is about the best advice I’ve seen when it comes to the circular electorialism argument that seems to occur every few weeks
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Dec 9, 2023 23:26
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Gnumonic posted:Biden administration uses emergency authority to sell tank shells to Israel The two sides are weighing certain factors up differently. For one side, it is believed Trump will not be any better on I/P but will absolutely be worse on other issues, so for pragmatic reasons Biden should be supported; for the other side, Trump is irrelevant because the problem centers around the idea that the 'lesser evil' argument has a lower bar below which is ceases to be reasonable, and abetting genocide is below that bar. To vote for Biden is to accept, in some manner, that abetment. Everything else is just ex post facto noise used to justify the original stance. My own position is kind of "Of course it's rigged, but it's the only game in town." I totally understand if someone feels they can't lend support to Biden because of this, but at the same time if you're going to walk away from Omelas you kind of have to do the walking away part, otherwise you're still participating in every part of a society that is supporting Israel's genocide with your economic, social, political, etc. activity.
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Dec 9, 2023 23:34
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the_steve posted:Good thing there's more than two candidates, no matter how hard the media and the voter tribes on Twitter try to insist otherwise. Are any of the other candidates anti Israel and pro Ukraine?
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Dec 9, 2023 23:44
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FistEnergy posted:That's not all there is to it, though. Biden is actively supporting war crimes and genocide. Biden is actively refusing to address material conditions and has taken away the support Americans previously had, and has failed to deliver material improvements that were main planks of his campaign. The only power we have as voters is voting for someone else or withholding our votes. That's our lever of power. "The other guy is worse" hasn't worked and has resulted in increasingly bad economic and social conditions for everyone in America. This is a pushover mindset. Could you lay out what your criteria are for "actively addressing material conditions"? Same with material improvements. What's the threshold of acceptable success?
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Dec 9, 2023 23:50
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Quixzlizx posted:I would suggest not taking seriously claims that any moral person is obligated not to vote for Biden, nor would I try to browbeat the posters making the claims. I can't think of a bigger waste of time. To the extent any of us are trying to persuade anybody of anything, it's lurkers. Once someone declares a position, it is very, very hard for them to back off of it - I don't think it's just this community, or even just the internet, I think it's human nature. But somebody who hasn't taken a side still has the freedom to consider the issue without having their own ego involved in the answers.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:04
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FistEnergy posted:That's not all there is to it, though. Biden is actively supporting war crimes and genocide. Biden is actively refusing to address material conditions and has taken away the support Americans previously had, and has failed to deliver material improvements that were main planks of his campaign. The only power we have as voters is voting for someone else or withholding our votes. That's our lever of power. "The other guy is worse" hasn't worked and has resulted in increasingly bad economic and social conditions for everyone in America. This is a pushover mindset. This is reductive. The Build Back Better Initiative and the VRA are the largest federal investment in the economy since the New Deal. The VRA is a large portion of the Green New Deal. Probably wouldn't have gotten much more from a Bernie administration. Biden has been a pleasant surprise. He is the most proactively green president thus far, the best on unions in a long time, and the least interventionist since idk... Carter? He's certainly the best domestically since LBJ. Sucks his position on Israel. I understand wanting to set fire to the whole world over it but I think the best gift we can give Israel is to turn its biggest ally into a fascist dictatorship that will support its genocidal regime for the rest of our lives. I think the accelerationist left has failed to achieve results and set a lot of our goals back, and asks us to throw our lives into the fire for no clear benefit. I am ashamed of my fellow leftists for being suckered into such an obvious psy-op of an ideology. EVERY FASCIST VOTES. THEY HAVE GOTTEN RESULTS FROM IT. MORE DECENT PEOPLE SHOULD TRY.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:04
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Ms Adequate posted:The two sides are weighing certain factors up differently. For one side, it is believed Trump will not be any better on I/P but will absolutely be worse on other issues, so for pragmatic reasons Biden should be supported; for the other side, Trump is irrelevant because the problem centers around the idea that the 'lesser evil' argument has a lower bar below which is ceases to be reasonable, and abetting genocide is below that bar. To vote for Biden is to accept, in some manner, that abetment.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:06
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FistEnergy posted:
Setting aside for a moment the fact that the Biden admin is in fact doing things, this is a wildly, wildly inaccurate statement. Annual US aid to Israel is somewhere in the realm of $3.5-4b, which is about 4b too much. It is also 7% of our annual foreign aid budget and 0.1% of our federal budget. I'm rather hoping you knew that ballpark and were just being incendiary; the general US populace has no comprehension of our budget and thinks we're spending vast sums on foreign aid, but I'd expect better of someone attempting to make credible sweeping arguments in dnd. Zachack posted:Are any of the other candidates anti Israel and pro Ukraine? There aren't really any other candidates in the D primary for obvious reasons, none of the stronger possibilities (I'm tentatively a Pritzker man for 2028 but it's way way way too early to guess much of the field; I've been hoping for several presidential elections for a labor leader to throw their hat in the ring, say, so if Shawn Fain runs that'd be neat) want to run a no-hoper campaign against a sitting president. Insofar as there are two that have done enough legwork to be on ballots on enough states to theoretically win if they had a friendly genie, Dean Phillips is significantly more pro-Israel than Biden, and Marianne Williamson is... well, I guess you could argue she's better on Israel than Biden. "I stand with Israel, I hate Hamas, and I think the invasion and bombing of Gaza is the wrong decision" is a stronger public statement than the Biden admin's generally made.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:07
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If you think Trump is all sorts of evil and also that most people are good and don’t like fascists and would stand up when put to the test - voting for Trump is the fastest way to make sure something fundamentally changes so we can break free of the uniparty nonsense. People put out the stops during Trumps first turn. It’ll happen again. Better than feeling helpless because your liberal leader is actively supporting genocide and barely even pretending to pass legislation to help the people. Just a bunch of handouts, most of which went to corporates if you’re tracking things.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:16
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seeing as how i mentioned the Biden administration doing things, might as well post a couple more or less randomly selected recent ones in the news Remember that Haudenosaunee lacrosse thing? Biden did something more important at the same Tribal Nations Summit (itself a cool if symbolic gathering): signed an executive order reforming tribal access to federal money. This may have come up earlier, but the Biden administration approved another batch of student loan forgiveness for 80k borrowers. It's not a policy as such yet, but they also released the Fall 2023 regulatory agenda (squishier partial summary here) which I don't really have the time to go through right now. e: here's one from July: the Biden admin is working with a bunch of (mostly blue) states to prosecute price gouging etc re food. You know, the thing that keeps coming up as a big reason why people are feeling bad economic vibes. Federal nnouncement here, related USDA policies here. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 00:20
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If you think Trump is all sorts of evil and also that most people are good and don’t like fascists and would stand up when put to the test - voting for Trump is the fastest way to make sure something fundamentally changes so we can break free of the uniparty nonsense. What is the fundamental change you are looking for, specifically?
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Dec 10, 2023 00:30
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reignonyourparade posted:Still pretty confusing that would only happen in the US, and only now though How's that confusing though? "Why now"? I explained why now. People exploring a post pandemic world with tons of personal and lifestyle debt, inundated by news that the world is falling apart and their lot is unlikely to ever really improve. "Why the US?" is because we have no safety net, meaning those debts are more accute. It's possible to have more money and be in a position to begin paying back those debts while still having a pile of, for example, medical bills. "People believe Republican propaganda about Biden" is an explanation but I think it's reinforced by personal experience. People are primed to believe something is wrong because something is wrong. Also I think people in the US believe, for some reason that Democrats are bad at economics.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:31
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Bodyholes posted:This is reductive. The Build Back Better Initiative and the VRA are the largest federal investment in the economy since the New Deal. The VRA is a large portion of the Green New Deal. Probably wouldn't have gotten much more from a Bernie administration. Biden has been a pleasant surprise. He is the most proactively green president thus far, the best on unions in a long time, and the least interventionist since idk... Carter? He's certainly the best domestically since LBJ. The US's modern history of interventionism in the Middle East is based on the Carter Doctrine. He's the one that kicked the ball that's been rolling ever since. That said, it's not like military interventionism ever really sat as much on the left/right axis as anyone likes to assume.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:33
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I just don't feel like "genocide there but not here" and "genocide there and here" are real choices.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:36
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mawarannahr posted:I think this is a bit heavy handed. Would you tell Arab voters who say they will not vote for Biden to "do the walking away part?" I didn't really mean it as a moral condemnation and if it came across as such that's my bad, just an observation that highlights why not voting for Biden is unlikely to play any part in giving us a better system with better candidates. It won't be interpreted as "Supporting genocide is absolutely politically unacceptable" it'll be interpreted as "We need to move more to the right, given that someone far to the right of Biden just beat Biden." And I think that would be totally the wrong lesson to draw, but it's kind of like the border; has Biden done enough on it? Not by a long shot. Is direct or indirect support for Trump next year going to suggest that Biden is too tough on the border? Also not by a long shot. Does it loving suck? Absolutely. Do I blame anyone who feels that it would incur too heavy a weight on their soul? Not for a second. But I also don't think it would result in better policy towards I/P, and stands a pretty good chance of resulting in something worse. But how someone weighs up the balance of what compromises they will and won't make is ultimately up to them. e; No, that's not entirely accurate, I sort of did intend it as a moral condemnation and you're right to pull me up short on that, I shouldn't try to dodge around that. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 00:37
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Timmy Age 6 posted:What is the fundamental change you are looking for, specifically? Voting systems and fundraising overhauls.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:39
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It feels being asked which execution method you want and then being chided that not being involved in the process means we're going to pick the most painful option and really wouldn't you like to be involved and be able to vote for something gentle and easy.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:39
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The piss tape is real
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Dec 10, 2023 00:40
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Voting systems and fundraising overhauls. Voting for trump ensures these things move in a positive direction, how, exactly? Is the current SCOTUS better for these things to stand a chance of changing than before Trump appointed three justices? If Trump gets to appoint a few more, do you think that would help? I understand people's frustration and why they might be driven to not vote for either candidate out of a moral sense that taking part in the lose-lose system legitimizes it but wanting a second Trump presidency because you somehow think voting rights will get better is truly deranged.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:44
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Voting systems and fundraising overhauls.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:44
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Kagrenak posted:Voting for trump ensures these things move in a positive direction, how, exactly? Is the current SCOTUS better for these things to stand a chance of changing than before Trump appointed three justices? If Trump gets to appoint a few more, do you think that would help? If he feels that nothing was moved in a positive direction by letting him win in 2016 why does he think it'll work now? The contradictions are baffling.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:47
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It's "funny" that this is coming on the heels of a Reuters investigation about an Israeli tank shell killing one of their journalists: https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-LEBANON/JOURNALIST/akveabxrzvr/
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Dec 10, 2023 00:50
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Kagrenak posted:Voting for trump ensures these things move in a positive direction, how, exactly? Is the current SCOTUS better for these things to stand a chance of changing than before Trump appointed three justices? If Trump gets to appoint a few more, do you think that would help? I believe collapse is necessary first. Voice of the people has gone downhill since Reagan, cemented as impossible since Citizens United. Everything since has been a predictable race to the bottom. Just finish it off already.
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Dec 10, 2023 01:35
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Kagrenak posted:Voting for trump ensures these things move in a positive direction, how, exactly? Is the current SCOTUS better for these things to stand a chance of changing than before Trump appointed three justices? If Trump gets to appoint a few more, do you think that would help? Liberal judges think they make laws. They are just as problematic as the corporate sellout ones. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 01:37
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