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galagazombie posted:Modern America has basically lost the ability to even conceive of the idea of “Build something that we will need, in the future.” 
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Dec 10, 2023 03:38
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galagazombie posted:Modern America has basically lost the ability to even conceive of the idea of “Build something that we will need, in the future.” So when someone else does it, regardless of if it’s done well or bad or is chock full of grift, it just seems like madness. Building an apartment building because you know the population will keep growing and you’ll be glad you had a spare one lying around, rather than just waiting till there’s a bunch of people with nowhere for them to live, is not an idea that America understands anymore.
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Dec 10, 2023 03:41
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galagazombie posted:Modern America has basically lost the ability to even conceive of the idea of “Build something that we will need, in the future.”
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Dec 10, 2023 03:46
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galagazombie posted:Modern America has basically lost the ability to even conceive of the idea of “Build something that we will need, in the future.” So when someone else does it, regardless of if it’s done well or bad or is chock full of grift, it just seems like madness. Building an apartment building because you know the population will keep growing and you’ll be glad you had a spare one lying around, rather than just waiting till there’s a bunch of people with nowhere for them to live, is not an idea that America understands anymore. Well the population in China isn't growing anymore, they have like most of east Asia started to decline. Where the population lives may change if urbanization levels keep going up.
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Dec 10, 2023 03:51
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The only thing keeping America's population growing is immigration. China's population is about to hit nosedive territory. 1.09 fertility rate? Yikes.
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Dec 10, 2023 03:52
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Next year is a dragon year so maybe you'll see spikes but back to decline next year.
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Dec 10, 2023 03:55
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Doubt it will hit replacement.
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Dec 10, 2023 03:56
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McGavin posted:The only thing keeping America's population growing is immigration. China's population is about to hit nosedive territory. 1.09 fertility rate? Yikes. that's basically the entire world at a certain per-capita GDP rating like, when it becomes more valuable to have quality children rather than quantity children and women are sufficiently freed to insist on that, there's a demographic transition. it's a very known thing and it's nothing to be scared of. yes, you have an old population for a while but a population being old is not really a problem unless everyone old is also super unhealthy and needs a shitload of extra care that nobody can/wants to provide. the entire world has known that peak human population is coming since something like 2005. it's not something to knock your knees about. it does however mean that it's pretty stupid to build a bunch of apartments to house tens of thousands of people when you have no guarantee or even reasonable expectation that these people will arrive, though.
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Dec 10, 2023 03:59
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I lived for a bit in a ghost city suburb of Chengdu and it loving sucks. Yeah they ran a subway line out there but the stroads are literally like 12 lanes wide and everything is spaced out for cars. It's not walkable at all and there's nothing to do because it's all just apartments people bought as investments, there's hardly anyone out there, no street life like in the city proper. Trash. Got out of there as fast as I could. The older areas of Chinese cities that were built at human scale and are full of people and life are great. Yulin is just a fantastic place to walk around and exist in. The new areas suck balls. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 04:01
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When your fertility rate is 1.09 and your net migration is negative you don't have a demographic transition, you have a demographic catastrophe.
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Dec 10, 2023 04:06
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Ugh now I'm watching a walk around at night video of Chengdu and feeling nostalgic. I wish the good parts of China outweighed the bad for me. There's so much to like but the parts that suck just suck so much.
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Dec 10, 2023 04:12
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Grand Fromage posted:I lived for a bit in a ghost city suburb of Chengdu and it loving sucks. Yeah they ran a subway line out there but the stroads are literally like 12 lanes wide and everything is spaced out for cars. It's not walkable at all and there's nothing to do because it's all just apartments people bought as investments, there's hardly anyone out there, no street life like in the city proper. Trash. Got out of there as fast as I could. But I heard 15 minute cities were a communist plot.
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Dec 10, 2023 04:25
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America built a gigantic orb. Has the CCP built an orb yet? I didn’t think so
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Dec 10, 2023 05:10
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Baddog posted:To push back on the ghost city thing a bit, I did go check out one of the "famous" ones last time I was in changsha - meixi lake. Well like in the very article you linked they don't say this was some sort of failed project. They in fact say "China builds a whole city first and plan to move the people in later". But like, a ghost city from 2016 has people in it now, great. When does the ghost city built in 2023 become occupied? Buildings have maintenance and depreciation even when nobody is living in them. Building a whole bunch of poo poo and moving people in 6 months later is a good idea: much easier to do all that construction at once with no people. Building poo poo that sits empty for 3 years is a terrible idea: the pipe on the 9th floor that's been leaking for the last 2 years with nobody reporting the problem has now ruined dozens of units. Also there's probably a huge difference between the state projects and the private developments as for what the long-term support is like. The city built in a totally different country, based on vague promises, that has already spent the money of people who invested in it? Lol.
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Dec 10, 2023 05:16
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Megillah Gorilla posted:But I heard 15 minute cities were a communist plot. more a billionaire's grift concept
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Dec 10, 2023 05:16
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A lot of people across the world still need better infrastructure though. Even if there’s a population decline, the quality of housing for the previous generation is garbage. Single pane windows, lack of energy efficient heat, etc etc. I’m not saying xiongan giant ghost cities is the answer, but there has to be some sort of continuous development. What happened to Xiong an by the way? News is so hard to come by. And lol that new airport is so loving far
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Dec 10, 2023 05:39
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Baddog posted:To push back on the ghost city thing a bit, I did go check out one of the "famous" ones last time I was in changsha - meixi lake. It seems like the photographer himself explained the vacancy as temporary? quote:"These new Chinese cities are built to the point of near completion before introducing people," Caemmerer said. "Because of this, there is an interim period between the final phases of development and when the areas become noticeably populated, during which many of the buildings stand empty." But yeah, big empty buildings are sort of catnip for photographers, and this guy was openly doing it as an art project
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Dec 10, 2023 06:09
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Wonton posted:A lot of people across the world still need better infrastructure though. Even if there’s a population decline, the quality of housing for the previous generation is garbage. Single pane windows, lack of energy efficient heat, etc etc. Just read last week that they are mandating several Beijing universities move their campuses to Xiong'an, sucks to be the students at those places in the future. I suppose it's one way to make sure the place gets filled up.
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Dec 10, 2023 06:41
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thetoughestbean posted:America built a gigantic orb. Has the CCP built an orb yet? I didn’t think so They have secret orbs (many people are saying this).We cannot allow an orb gap to develop. 
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Dec 10, 2023 23:05
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Wonton posted:A lot of people across the world still need better infrastructure though. Even if there’s a population decline, the quality of housing for the previous generation is garbage. Single pane windows, lack of energy efficient heat, etc etc. no argument but it's basically the same "city of the future" thing you occasionally see billionaires and princelings putting forward vs urban renewal. yes, people need better homes, and those homes also need jobs attached to them. well the thing is, if a home already exists in a place it generally is there because there was a job attached to it. what sense is there in creating both a job and a home when both already exist? is it really harder to simply improve them? the answer of course is no, it's not harder, but that doesn't allow weird egomaniacs and corrupt government agents to build clout or wealth by toying with other peoples' lives. for a fraction of the cost of making a ghost city you could finally fix flint, michigan's public sewage and plumbing but it's not sexy to provide clean water.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:15
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Coolguye posted:no argument but it's basically the same "city of the future" thing you occasionally see billionaires and princelings putting forward vs urban renewal. yes, people need better homes, and those homes also need jobs attached to them. well the thing is, if a home already exists in a place it generally is there because there was a job attached to it. what sense is there in creating both a job and a home when both already exist? is it really harder to simply improve them? I mean, we aren't doing 'ghost cities' OR clean water here, so uhhh....
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Dec 10, 2023 23:49
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These high-rise housing estates were pretty popular in Europe in the 60s and 70s too(especially in the Warsaw pact countries), but fell out of favor in the west in the 80s. IIRC one of the major problems with them was that while they started out as middle class housing, they tended to concentrate socio-economically disadvantaged people over time which created all kinds of social problems. The middle class mostly fled from there to low density satellite cities, the suburbs or gentrified urban centers. Due to the current housing crisis there has been some public discussion of bringing these back, but city planners aren't really psyched about it.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:38
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Do what Singapore and Hong Kong did. Solve crime, add security, fire departments, hospitals and police, make sure it’s well maintained add other amenities like schools and transportation hubs and cheap food markets. And for the icing on the cake add a couple private rich people housing so that the police will actually show up. Rich folks get the bonus of accessing cheap labour and cheaper super markets and restaurants, and poor folks get service that actually work because rich people use and fund them. The “oh no look at these public housing buildings, poor people got it rough” is a matter of bad planning and maintenance of public infrastructure
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Dec 11, 2023 02:49
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Baddog posted:I mean, we aren't doing 'ghost cities' OR clean water here, so uhhh.... the USA specifically isn't really spending money on infrastructure at all, which is its own huge sack of problems, yeah
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Dec 11, 2023 03:03
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Wonton posted:Do what Singapore and Hong Kong did. Just don't look too deeply at this one though
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Dec 11, 2023 03:04
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yeah i was considering responding to that post but when the very first predicate was "just solve crime 4hed :]" i ended up writing it off as a troll
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Dec 11, 2023 03:06
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Wonton posted:Solve crime no oops beaten lol
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Dec 11, 2023 03:38
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Baddog posted:I mean, we aren't doing 'ghost cities' OR clean water here, so uhhh.... Flint’s water has been clean since 2016 thetoughestbean fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 03:46
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Political jokes aside Public housing was fine and solved before the handover. Post handover is when things went haywire. But everything is fine now because national security is awwwwwweeesommmmmmeeeeee
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Dec 11, 2023 04:13
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there was and will never be a handover in singapore and hdb is still hosed up
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Dec 11, 2023 04:22
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Early forms of public housing only had communal baths and lovely toilets. They were built up because of too many shanty towns and sudden burst of overpopulation, and the construction was shoddy and corrupt. The city didn’t solve other issues It was after the establishment of the independent commission against corruption ICAC and solving systemic issues of crime and corrupt cops/public contracts that the city started to flourish. Mandatory schooling, building nature parks and trails, building hospitals and infrastructure really made HK take off from the 70s onwards. Maclehose was a hero of the city but unfortunately he’s just like any other British dude and thinks “Chinese were not ready for democracy” - so that’s the same reasoning used after the handover. Isn’t life perfect!
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Dec 11, 2023 04:22
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bob dobbs is dead posted:there was and will never be a handover in singapore and hdb is still hosed up I think a couple million folks hk folks will take it in the HDB or Singapore in a heartbeat. Mandatory savings money for housing, yes supply is still very limited and the government basically wants you to have kids and families to be eligible. Where has housing in the world really been successful dealt with? It’s still the weird asset where it’s going up pretty steady last 30 years. Not S&P good but still drat good with inflation. Relying on the private market to make up for housing like in Austria? Definitely not Canada or USA. I’m not Singaporean so I’ll just stick with the patriotism I have here.
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Dec 11, 2023 04:28
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japan thats it, pretty much
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Dec 11, 2023 04:32
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bob dobbs is dead posted:japan Japan has millions of empty houses because of its declining population.
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Dec 11, 2023 04:34
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Entirely unrelated to the current discussion. But Singapore was mentioned, so it made me think of this. You know how Singapore and Malaysian English speakers add a ".... lah" at the end of most sentences? Like "Hey, come and have a look at this lah", or "Where do you want to go for dinner tonight lah?" etc. Is there a Hong Kong equivalent?
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Dec 11, 2023 04:35
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有啊
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Dec 11, 2023 04:54
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McGavin posted:Japan has millions of empty houses because of its declining population. While that’s true, that’s not really the reason that housing is typically much cheaper there. The empty houses are in the rural areas—cities like Tokyo have an increasing population. Stuff gets rebuilt fairly often, which means that more apartments can be added to meet demand, and the good public transit in cities means that people can live in suburbs and still easily get to work in the downtown areas, which means there’s less competition for urban housing.
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Dec 11, 2023 04:56
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China solved housing, in about 50 years or so when prices are rock bottom for the apartment blocks that haven’t collapsed from disuse and lack of upkeep
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Dec 11, 2023 04:57
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McGavin posted:Japan has millions of empty houses because of its declining population. the aging population is actually more of an issue than the declining population because old people are leaving their family homes for care homes due to the youth no longer living locally, and the youth largely don't want to move back to the country to take up a house that is worth literally nothing because it was only built to last 30 years.
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Dec 11, 2023 04:59
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Wonton posted:Where has housing in the world really been successful dealt with? It’s still the weird asset where it’s going up pretty steady last 30 years. Not S&P good but still drat good with inflation. Relying on the private market to make up for housing like in Austria? Definitely not Canada or USA. Out of desirable/hospitable countries Thailand has it pretty good, typical housing cost for a local family is around 100 USD/month, foreigners can't easily own land and condos have a 50% quota reserved for Thai nationals, zoning rules are lax so popular areas can get some really tall buildings quickly without NIMBYs blocking the price for the laxness is sometimes city planning is more of an afterthought so traffic can get out of control,there's lots of sprawl and everyone has to drive Vesi fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 05:53
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