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Netanyahu's whole platform has been "we will never negotiate with Palestinians, they will never have a state, we will keep them under occupation forever".He has been in power for literally decades now. The present circumstances and any resulting fallout are entirely the responsibility of the Israeli govt. and their policies. It's a complete waste of time to wring our hands about how badly the people living under the boot of genocidal occupation behave. criticizing Hamas' tactics is whatever, you can go ahead and do that if you want to, but again it's a waste of time when the occupier fully rejects any kind of rapprochement and has openly done so for (at least) decades now.
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Dec 9, 2023 19:59
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I don't think the ends justify any means. Your stance not only excuses but justifies literally anything, which I find incredibly immoral. It's kind of hard to engage with you in good faith when you're clearly taking the least charitable interpretation of my words possible. But let's give it a shot. Yes, I believe that in the specific case of resisting genocide, that the ends justify the means. Because what is the alternative? You can't subject people to oppression and genocide and then expect them to fight by the rules that are amenable to the oppressor. It's literally a fight for survival, and the alternative is laying down and dying quietly. As I keep having to point out, the responsibility is on Israel to end the genocide. Do you think that any other resistance to genocide in the history of humanity has been clean and free of acts that would otherwise be deemed heinous? This is a liberal fantasy. You didn't fully answer my question because that's not really a response to Hamas's actions, that's just what you think Hamas should do. Let me be more specific: what do you think should be the appropriate response from Israel to Hamas's actions? Furthermore, what do you think should be the appropriate response from the rest of the word to Hamas's actions? Your question kind of cuts to the heart of the matter to me, and there's an implication there that is open to interpretation, so let me first ask you a question of clarification: what should be the result of "crossing the line"? It's a question that I keep asking, and I haven't gotten a coherent answer yet. What opinions of mine should be changed if Hamas crosses the line? What should I believe is justified if Hamas crosses the line? The more charitable interpretation would be that you simply want me to acknowledge that Hamas has committed crimes. If that's all it takes, and we can move on from there, then yes, I acknowledge that Hamas has committed crimes. I would also point out that I have never denied that they have, nor have I said that they are acceptable in the absolute - only that they should not be the focus of anyone's ire while a literal genocide is ongoing. You cannot remove Hamas's actions from the context of an ongoing genocide no matter what. The less charitable interpretation is that if Hamas crosses the line, then I should support their eradication. That is not something I can ever support. Even if Israel was magically able to kill every member of Hamas without harming a single civilian, they are still the legitimate government in Gaza, and their power there was deliberately engineered by Israel so that any opposition to the genocide would be in the hands of extremists. I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you don't believe that, so I'd appreciate your clarification. And just to reiterate, my point is that for the time being, while there is an ongoing genocide, that everyone's ire should be laser focused on the people committing the genocide, and not on the people resisting the genocide. Save it for the truth and reconciliation that will come when this is over, god willing.
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Dec 9, 2023 20:10
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Fister Roboto posted:It's kind of hard to engage with you in good faith when you're clearly taking the least charitable interpretation of my words possible. But let's give it a shot. Likewise! I am required by forum rules to engage you in good faith. I am not required to actually believe you have it. Fister Roboto posted:Yes, I believe that in the specific case of resisting genocide, that the ends justify the means. Because what is the alternative? You can't subject people to oppression and genocide and then expect them to fight by the rules that are amenable to the oppressor. It's literally a fight for survival, and the alternative is laying down and dying quietly. As I keep having to point out, the responsibility is on Israel to end the genocide. Do you think that any other resistance to genocide in the history of humanity has been clean and free of acts that would otherwise be deemed heinous? This is a liberal fantasy. No, I don't believe this and in fact my previous post used the hypothetical of such cases as examples. Thank you for answering the question. Fister Roboto posted:You didn't fully answer my question because that's not really a response to Hamas's actions, that's just what you think Hamas should do. Let me be more specific: what do you think should be the appropriate response from Israel to Hamas's actions? Furthermore, what do you think should be the appropriate response from the rest of the word to Hamas's actions? I think sexual assault and taking babies prisoner should be condemned by absolutely everyone. I think the appropriate response is to condemn these things rather than ignore them as you've advocated, and continue to focus on ending Israel's genocide. I think it is possible to do more than one thing at a time. Fister Roboto posted:Your question kind of cuts to the heart of the matter to me, and there's an implication there that is open to interpretation, so let me first ask you a question of clarification: what should be the result of "crossing the line"? It's a question that I keep asking, and I haven't gotten a coherent answer yet. What opinions of mine should be changed if Hamas crosses the line? What should I believe is justified if Hamas crosses the line? The more charitable interpretation would be that you simply want me to acknowledge that Hamas has committed crimes. If that's all it takes, and we can move on from there, then yes, I acknowledge that Hamas has committed crimes. I would also point out that I have never denied that they have, nor have I said that they are acceptable in the absolute - only that they should not be the focus of anyone's ire while a literal genocide is ongoing. You cannot remove Hamas's actions from the context of an ongoing genocide no matter what. I told you what a moral response would be in my opinion, and why I think your stance of not talking about it at all is immoral. I'm not sure which part you think is incoherent, or why you're jumping to eradicating Hamas.
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Dec 9, 2023 20:20
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Alright, if that's all it takes then I condemn the bad actions of Hamas. Now let's move on.
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Dec 9, 2023 20:28
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Is there a term for the practice of people constantly (or at least partially) misinterpreting the other side's argument, expressing outrage/judgment at the misinterpreted argument they've imagined, and claiming ignorance of how the other side could misunderstand their own arguments? I feel like I've seen it several times in this thread and it is very tiresome to read, especially when it is the same argument that has been had before, just with different posters. I believe the first time I saw it was regarding reports of decapitated babies, then the Al-Shifa hospital bombing, and now sexual assault. It feels similar to whataboutism and gish galloping, but distinct from that.
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Dec 9, 2023 20:47
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Likewise! I am required by forum rules to engage you in good faith. I am not required to actually believe you have it. im still curious since youve been asked several times already in this thread and have basically evaded a concrete response; what should Palestinians do to achieve peace and freedom?
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Dec 9, 2023 20:49
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More videos coming out of people surrendering to Israel soldiers. Lots of them
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Dec 9, 2023 20:50
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Fister Roboto posted:I believe that people have the right to resist genocide by any means necessary. Because genocide is such a heinous crime, that means that resistance could include actions that, in a vacuum, would also be heinous. Again, it is entirely the responsibility of Israel to end the genocide and occupation of Palestine. And you apparently agree with me, because you rightly believe that the only appropriate response is to end the genocide. So why keep raising these concerns over Hamas? You're contradicting yourself by saying that Hamas shouldn't be able to "commit any action without moral responsibility" while also acknowledging that the only appropriate response is irrelevant to that moral responsibility. I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Yes, it's Israel's role to stop the genocide. That doesn't mean I think it's fine if Hamas abduct random people who are not enabling said genocide as a response. I don't understand how this is a contradiction. Fister Roboto posted:Here's my overall point: if you truly oppose genocide, then it is not morally appropriate to highlight the alleged crimes of the people being genocided. That's just helping to justify the genocide, whether you're aware of it or not. If we were back in the holocaust and someone kept saying that they had some concerns about Jewish resistance groups raping women and killing babies (but they don't approve of what the nazis are doing either), that would obviously be reprehensible. I disagree with this completely. I do not think voicing concerns about horrific actions performed by Jewish resistance groups during the holocaust would be reprehensible. I don't think that any theoretical response, especially if it's not going to end said genocide, is appropriate. I believe that it's moral to go after those who are enabling said genocide. But not killing/taking random people hostage who either have nothing to do with it and might even be on the same side of opposing Israel's policies. We just have different moral boundaries. You seem to think any action is okay if a group is being genocided and their struggle is more important than lives who are not enabling said genocide (correct me if I'm wrong). I disagree and would generally draw the line at when said innocent lives are being actively targeted 
Kalit fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 20:51
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Collapsing Farts posted:More videos coming out of people surrendering to Israel soldiers. Lots of them 
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Dec 9, 2023 21:00
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Kalit posted:I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Yes, it's Israel's role to stop the genocide. That doesn't mean I think it's fine if Hamas abduct random people who are not enabling said genocide as a response. I don't understand how this is a contradiction. The contradiction is that you think that Hamas should be held morally responsible for their actions but you're not able or willing to say what that responsibility should look like. Should they be punished? Should they be brought before a war crimes tribunal? Maybe they should! But probably not at least until the genocide is over and Palestine is free. Or do you just want people to agree with you that Hamas has done bad things? That's fine, and I do agree with you, but it's also completely immaterial. It's functionally the same as my position. I've stated my position multiple times, and it's that people have the right to resist genocide by any means necessary. This doesn't mean that every action is acceptable, but it does mean that it should be judged after the genocide has ended, not during. If you truly think that it would be acceptable to criticize the actions of resistance groups during the holocaust, then I strongly urge you to think about why. But yes, that seems to be the impasse in this discussion.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:19
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Collapsing Farts posted:More videos coming out of people surrendering to Israel soldiers. Lots of them Probably smarter for the civilians to do than wait for the IDF to strip you naked and call you Hamas.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:19
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Honestly if the IDF can make a big show of capturing "Hamas militants" and just declare victory as soon as possible, that's probably for the best. They're losing 1-2 soldiers a day and have no measurable victories. Zero (0) hostages rescued by military action, no Hamas strongholds captured etc.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:23
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Fister Roboto posted:The contradiction is that you think that Hamas should be held morally responsible for their actions but you're not able or willing to say what that responsibility should look like. Should they be punished? Should they be brought before a war crimes tribunal? Maybe they should! But probably not at least until the genocide is over and Palestine is free. Or do you just want people to agree with you that Hamas has done bad things? That's fine, and I do agree with you, but it's also completely immaterial. It's functionally the same as my position. Ahhh, thank you for the clarification. I'm using "morally responsible" as meaning for individuals/organizations/governments as officially condemning to hopefully have the perpetuator take a step back and realize they might not be helping their own cause. Of course, it could easily lead to escalation if more countries end up getting involved, which hopefully will not happen. But overall, I don't think any official reprimanding actions should occur unless there is a ceasefire and it should be for both sides. Thanks for the advice and I strongly urge you to think more about those innocent lives who are impacted by senseless violence that doesn't even seem to help stop, or even slow down, a genocide. Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 21:32
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Collapsing Farts posted:More videos coming out of people surrendering to Israel soldiers. Lots of them Israel realized how bad that video of them abducting random men from a shelter was and now they’re giving their kidnapping victims guns to put down as well. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 21:51
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No no see they stripped the terrorists naked first and THEN had them hand over their weapons.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:57
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Neurolimal posted:Probably smarter for the civilians to do than wait for the IDF to strip you naked and call you Hamas. Pretty sure that every male Palestinian older than 10 years old is going to be stripped and called Hamas anyway, just not on the camera.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:57
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Kalit posted:Ahhh, thank you for the clarification. I'm using "morally responsible" as meaning for individuals/organizations/governments as officially condemning to hopefully have the perpetuator take a step back and realize they might not be helping their own cause. Of course, it could easily lead to escalation if more countries end up getting involved, which hopefully will not happen. But overall, I don't think any official reprimanding actions should occur unless there is a ceasefire and it should be for both sides. I believe that ultimately it is the responsibility of the genociders to end the genocide, and that means that the blame for innocent lives lost and harmed lies on them. That might sound antithetical to your values, but it is the tragic moral framework that genocide imposes. I would also suggest that you take a step back and think about why you claim to know what is and isn't effective means for resisting genocide. Maybe I'm making an incorrect assumption, but I'm guessing that you have never been subject to genocide yourself. Not saying that you need to find any action acceptable, but you should probably acknowledge that it's just not your place to judge people who have been subjected to incredible violence and oppression for generations.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:58
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Nucleic Acids posted:Israel realized how bad that video of them abducting random men from a shelter was and now they’re giving their kidnapping victims guns to put down as well.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:41
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Nucleic Acids posted:Israel realized how bad that video of them abducting random men from a shelter was and now they’re giving their kidnapping victims guns to put down as well. lol, yup. https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1733575203110711549?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Dec 9, 2023 22:46
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Darth Walrus posted:lol, yup. Can someone translate what the soldiers are saying in both clips? I've shown this to someone, and they suggested that they made one guy bring over everyone's weapons one by one. E: Looking closer at the comparison here https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1733606968550473791 Seems like the top video was filmed first, and in the bottom video, you can see the gun he put there in the first one. I very much doubt everyone there is a Hamas member, though, and I imagine at least some civilians in Gaza own guns. E2: Also, what a loving dreadful twitter account. Wasn't there really a better source? Paladinus fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 23:26
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Shehada has identified the 'gunman' in the videos: https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1733609300113711454?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Dec 10, 2023 00:18
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https://twitter.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1733229697641697404 Question is how do they get the fucker out of power quickly. He set this up to make it as difficult as possible.
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Dec 10, 2023 01:40
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punishedkissinger posted:I just want to point out that the suicide bombing specifically did achieve the political goal of ending the ongoing settlement of Gaza Nathan Thrall (the guy who wrote 'A Day in the Life of Abed Salama', which you should all read anyway) wrote a book called 'The Only Language They Understand: Forcing Compromise in Israel and Palestine' pointing out that both non-violent and violent force has been the only real method for securing compromise, from the 1973 war to Carter's pressure on Begin to the destruction of PLO bases etc. In other news, I've seen a figure making the rounds of at least 5,000 Israeli wounded (see below) since October 7th, which brings it by my calculation to the second highest wounded count after the 1973 war (7-9,000 wounded per Wikipedia). It completely blows through the 3,500 or so *in three years* in Lebanon between 1982-1985. It's probably third highest if you include 1948 but the estimates there are all over the place. e: found the Twitter source. It was Mairav Zonszein quoting Ynet but apparently that's been revised down to 2,000 and is now the accurate number. Could be the military censor. In either case, one of the most injurious conflicts in Israel's history and at a rapid pace against a force estimated to be 30,000-40,000 *after having destroyed 60-70% of all buildings in the Gaza strip*. I think it's reasonable to project a 5-10% death rate proportionate to the wounded rate. Would suspect that would mean between 100-200 soldiers killed since Oct 7th, which probably tracks to whatever the IDF has confirmed of late. https://x.com/MairavZ/status/1733491585495564644?s=20 e2: OctaMurk posted:judging by ratios of killed to wounded by e.g. the USA in the iraq war, we could be looking at like 1000 idf dead by now Think that's probably a very high guess. Mairav also suggested that around 58% of injuries were severe limb injuries (with significant numbers of amputations). Suggests to me that a lot of soldiers probably saved by their body armour or rapid treatment, despite various shortages. I think 5-10% is reasonable. If it's the revised 2,000 wounded figure then would suggest a ceiling of 200. If 5,000 is secretly legit then upper ceiling of about 500. Which, even leaving injuries aside, would make it one of Israel's worst military disasters since its inception. Lebanon '82 saw about 650 killed IIRC and Lebanon '06 something like 120. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 01:49
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Nathan Thrall (the guy who wrote 'A Day in the Life of Abed Salama', which you should all read anyway) wrote a book called 'The Only Language They Understand: Forcing Compromise in Israel and Palestine' pointing out that both non-violent and violent force has been the only real method for securing compromise, from the 1973 war to Carter's pressure on Begin to the destruction of PLO bases etc. judging by ratios of killed to wounded by e.g. the USA in the iraq war, we could be looking at like 1000 idf dead by now e: im bad at math OctaMurk fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 01:52
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https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-f5fdaeb7aeb4c81027.htm quote:"He told me: 'Look at me, I'm from East Jerusalem, we want to take you to Gaza,'" Yasmin recalled. Hadas described: "At that moment there was some unrest around the table, Liali was scared, and then the translator said: 'Calm down, calm down, we're just taking you to Erez Crossing and Gaza and tomorrow night you're already home.'" This is an interesting account. tl;dr hostage testimony that there was a roundup with clear intent to take hostages to Gaza. Instead of police to escort, army arrived and firing started. Army used mortars and eventually tank rounds killing everyone but two hostages.
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Dec 10, 2023 02:47
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Flopsy posted:https://twitter.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1733229697641697404 idk IDF or Shin Bet pulls a President Park Chung Hee? Doubt a military-intelligence junta would be better for the situation than Bibi and his Likudniks, but at least it would be more honest of Israel than "the Middle East's only democracy".
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Dec 10, 2023 05:03
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Young Freud posted:idk IDF or Shin Bet pulls a President Park Chung Hee? Doubt a military-intelligence junta would be better for the situation than Bibi and his Likudniks, but at least it would be more honest of Israel than "the Middle East's only democracy". I dont think there are any factions with power in Israel that would be better for Gaza tbh
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Dec 10, 2023 05:07
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https://x.com/marwasf/status/1733064641486495980?s=20 Another crime against humanity committed by Israel. Not only destroying people, but history too. Will this mosque get the same amount of support and attention as Notre Dame? I doubt that.
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Dec 10, 2023 06:15
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DelilahFlowers posted:https://x.com/marwasf/status/1733064641486495980?s=20 You gotta see it from Israel's point of view, at some point in the last 2000 years a terrorist could of possibly stepped foot inside that mosque.
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Dec 10, 2023 06:27
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Israel also destroyed one of the oldest Christian churches in Gaza earlier in the war as well. Gaza as a city is one of the oldest in the world as is, so seeing it be destroyed and ruined like this is pretty terrible from a historical preservation perspective as well.
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Dec 10, 2023 07:23
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Biden is now bypassing Congress to shovel weapons to the apartheid state https://twitter.com/AP/status/1733573499812196392?t=4J-ucuivzZ6-cEcctMEmCw&s=19
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Dec 10, 2023 16:06
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punishedkissinger posted:Biden is now bypassing Congress to shovel weapons to the apartheid state Feels like every time a U.S. president does this it turns out to be a bad idea? 
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Dec 10, 2023 17:11
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the entire ideological apparatus still holds a favorable view of Israel as of december 10th 2023
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Dec 10, 2023 17:37
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Biden can make whatever mealy mouthed statements he wants, but in every action he shows that he supports genocide.
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Dec 10, 2023 17:43
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At this point I'm pretty sure Israel could drop a nuke on Palestinian refugee camp filled with infants and US would still claim it was necessary self defense.
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Dec 10, 2023 17:44
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How corrupt is Hamas as an organization at the top? I get that Hamas is a large governing body, and there are just trash collectors and teachers or whatever. I'm curious about the actual Hamas leadership though? Do they get personally rich off the continued conflict and keeping Isreal from normalizing relations with other gulf nations, or are alot of them actually in the trenches doing the freedom fighting?
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Dec 10, 2023 18:13
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Less corrupt than Fatah it seems? One of the big advantages they had during the last election was they were better at providing services for Gaza.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:15
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There are accusations floating around that Hamas' top brass are richer than Abbas or even Netanyahu. https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/ The sources on that are not super reliable, though, as far as I can tell.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:30
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What was Hamas' goal with Oct 7? Even as someone with only basic knowledge on I/P it was very predictable that Israel would respond by using it as an excuse to execute their dream of total obliteration, brutal torture, and genocide of Palestinians. Did they make the mistake of believing that Israel would give a single gently caress about Israeli hostages and that it would give them leverage?
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Dec 10, 2023 18:31
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https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...item#1308272871 - "Of the hundreds of Palestinian detainees photographed handcuffed in the Gaza Strip in recent days, about 10 to 15 percent are Hamas operatives or are identified with the organization - according to senior security officials who spoke to Haaretz on Sunday. The IDF reported that the Palestinians who are not Hamas operatives that were arrested have been released." Did they just admitted that 85% of people they stripped down, humiliated and arrested were basically innocent civilians and "we totally released them later, trust us bro"?
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Dec 10, 2023 18:36
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