|
If Joe Biden wins re-election, it will be Harry Truman level rout, there is nothing going well for his administration right now going into the new year.
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 14:08 |
|
|
here is a news or current event: if anyone was wondering would be departing congress to become mayor of houston, well, she won't be doing that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:08
|
|
|
lobster shirt posted:here is a news or current event: if anyone was wondering would be departing congress to become mayor of houston, well, she won't be doing that. Somebody recorded her dancing that's gone viral in H-town. At least she has that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:09
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:Somebody recorded her dancing that's gone viral in H-town. At least she has that. that and her congressional seat lol. i am sure she will win re-election in 2024.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
I think declaring you won't vote for supporting genocide is good. It's not election day. There's still time to not support a genocide (well times up for the many thousands dead and many more lives that are ruined). Why is "Im not voting for Biden if he supports a genocide" not constructive? Maybe it will make him stop. Apparently democracy is on the line, guess he better listen to the leftists whose votes he needs. Not just online, I've declared unwillingness to vote for biden again over the israel situation and gotten "don't say such things! What about Trump?!?!?" as a response. And if the "better things aren't possible" runs so deep to the core of our leaders systems and people, why not hope it fails? To me, a desire for collapse or otherwise massive shakeup would be about waking people up. As stated, if we can't even reliably elect the lesser evil, what hope do the American people have of using force to change things for the better? Why would things get better if we're unwilling to fight or sacrifice to achieve them? It should be our job.. This isn't working. The threat of things possibly getting worse rings hollow when our enlightened liberal democracy requires genocides and leaves a drastically less habitable planet. Climate change will mean the deaths of billions, a ruinous future, and we are far more concerned with our treats. I'd prefer even the chance that things could get better, knowing they may get worse, than the certainty associated with this continuing. I say this as somebody who'd likely not survive long post collapse. Without excess time or money or reliable transportation, I get to fight for a better world by voting for Joe biden? Yeah it feels pretty hosed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:12
|
|
|
Barrel Cactaur posted:So your primary works cited on why trump is better is that he just straight up bribed the voters in a one off. Praxis is when the minorities go in the crusher so i can get a thousand dollars. The minorities are in the crusher with either party. Turn on your TV. There are more in the crusher under Biden right now than were under the crusher under Trump. This is not an endorsement of Trump. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:13
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:If Biden loses because he lost the support of people who care about the lives of Muslims, then the Democrats might learn that they need to change their policies to court those voters. I think we're being told pretty consistently that those voters need to wake up, do some growing up, hold their noses, and vote like adults (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
This isn't a "lesser of two evils" argument. All voting is a lesser of X evils exercise. It's a "will you vote for someone using their presidential prerogative to bypass Congress in order to better arm an apartheid state so they can more efficiently commit genocide?" and for many, the answer will be no.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:20
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:I put it that way because do you think that not voting for Joe Biden will lead to a better outcome for Palestinians? If your answer is no, and you still won't vote to keep fascists out of power, then you're voting solely on how voting makes you feel about yourself and not about material conditions. I used to think that was a bit strong, but there have been too many abnormal patterns that get shot to the forefront of anti-electoralism arguments. The genocide argument also comes off as entirely specious this time around, because the people who are saying "it is unacceptable to vote for biden because of his support for genocide" had in nearly every single instance already concluded a firm anti-electoralist stance without it, but often throw the new Palestine issue in as if it changed everything and closed the door, in a way which made everything weird. Though, that would be easier to look past if the people arguing the most insistently these days (online, at least?) or leading organized calls to nonvoting who say that you can't vote for someone because of their direct contributions to genocide ... have a really ridiculous percentage of them that support totalitarian regimes that just outright do genocides. There are a lot of very poisoned wells here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:23
|
|
|
BRJurgis posted:To me, a desire for collapse or otherwise massive shakeup would be about waking people up. As stated, if we can't even reliably elect the lesser evil, what hope do the American people have of using force to change things for the better? Why would things get better if we're unwilling to fight or sacrifice to achieve them? It should be our job..  Real-life isn't a video game, we're not gearing up for a final boss fight after which everything will be fixed. Keeping the fascists out of power is basically going to be a necessary task for, probably, the rest of our lives. The alternative is mass graves and authoritarianism. BRJurgis posted:This isn't working. The threat of things possibly getting worse rings hollow when our enlightened liberal democracy requires genocides and leaves a drastically less habitable planet. Climate change will mean the deaths of billions, a ruinous future, and we are far more concerned with our treats. I'd prefer even the chance that things could get better, knowing they may get worse, than the certainty associated with this continuing. I say this as somebody who'd likely not survive long post collapse. Without excess time or money or reliable transportation, I get to fight for a better world by voting for Joe biden? Yeah it feels pretty hosed. Says who it's not working? Things are getting better, just not as quickly as we'd like, and always have a chance of regressing. As I said, the alternative is mass graves and authoritarianism.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:24
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:Israel isn't really pertinent, since Trump winning will at best have no effect and probably lead to more US weapons for Israel. But Trump winning will stop US air defense to Ukraine which will lead to children being murdered by shaheds in kindergarten as part of an ongoing genocide. Turns out there can be more than one genocide at the same time. There's been an ongoing genocide in Myanmar since long before the start of this thread and this post is the first time anyone has said Myanmar in it. I don't give a poo poo about electoralism one way or another but I want you to understand how loving callous it is to equate that moral position of not wanting to vote for a genocide supporter with "being afraid of cooties," as if the only disqualifying factor is that Joe Biden likes the wrong kind of soda. I can empathize someone not wishing to shoulder the depressing moral calculus of "well I can't vote for a viable candidate that will do anything about the genocide of brown children in the Middle East, so I guess I'll vote for the guy who will at least try to stop the genocide of white children in Ukraine." Obviously any candidate outside of the two main parties is hopeless, but I can certainly understand your personal principles demanding you vote according to your actual stated values rather than acquiescing to the lesser of two evils, which, in fact, remains evil nonetheless. e: I am not an accelerationist and I do not see accelerationism an an ethical reason to vote for Trump, to be clear. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Dec 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:25
|
|
|
the real kicker would be if some freak accident or right wing nutjob managed to kill both Biden and Harris and Ron Johnson becomes president, naming Trump as his VP, outright send US troops to Gaza, and basically make this argument all for naught before the election is even on the horizon
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:28
|
|
|
FistEnergy posted:The minorities are in the crusher with either party. I'm very much so not, Jesus christ. Look, i have incredibly heavy distaste for the fuzzy reasoning necessary to equivalent-ize "how we're doing under biden" vs "how we'd be doing under literally Donald Trump and his literal nazi immigration specialist who can't wait to send thousands and thousands of us to our death"
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:31
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:
At that point it seems like the problem is elections. If elections only create the opportunity for fascists to take over, shouldn’t the goal be to end elections in America?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:37
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:
There are mass graves, right now, in Gaza. Liz Magill was recently forced to resign for not being sufficiently pro-israel, as have others. The alternative is not mass graves and authoritarianism. That's already happening.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:39
|
|
|
FistEnergy posted:The minorities are in the crusher with either party. Turn on your TV. There are more in the crusher under Biden right now than were under the crusher under Trump. This is not an endorsement of Trump. This just isn't true and continuing to repeat it despite all evidence shown to you isn't going to make it true. Things aren't perfect under Democrats or even great but they are better
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:39
|
|
|
BRJurgis posted:I think declaring you won't vote for supporting genocide is good. It's not election day. There's still time to not support a genocide (well times up for the many thousands dead and many more lives that are ruined). You are literally advocating for genocide without saying "I want a big genocide". What the gently caress do you think a "collapse" is going to look like. Many Trump supporters are more radical than Al-Qaeda and they want all queer people in the USA and the whole world dead. Can you "I won't vote for Genocide Joe" fuckers just own the fact that you want a different, even bigger flavor of genocide.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:44
|
|
|
fresh news from CBS polling: https://i.imgur.com/BSAz832.png The last few pages have been less economy-specific but it still seems relevant to the general discussion of Biden's reelection. Most people are doing worse than a year ago and not keeping up with inflation. This matches my experience and that of almost everyone in my circle. The Stancils and Biden surrogates of the world will not convince us otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:45
|
|
|
FistEnergy posted:This is laughably incorrect. Leftist positions and programs to enact meaningful material change poll extremely well. Leftist programs that have been implemented (like social security, the 40 hour workweek, COVID checks, etc) become wildly popular with the electorate. You can't use a lack of electoral success to prove that leftism doesn't work, because both parties sabotage outsiders and outsider positions at every available opportunity. And the US mass media upholds the status quo at all times as well. Your "tons of evidence" is nothing but fruit from the poisoned tree. Social security, medicare, 40 hr workweeks, child labor laws, anti-trust laws, and other nice things were passed by and with the help of people who were morally flawed--committing war crimes, kicking the can on jim crow, kicking the can on women's rights. The US system can lead to progress but it is slow and painful and contains more ugly compromises compared to better designed democracies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:47
|
|
|
Bodyholes posted:Social security, medicare, 40 hr workweeks, child labor laws, anti-trust laws, and other nice things were passed by and with the help of people who were morally flawed--committing war crimes, kicking the can on jim crow, kicking the can on women's rights. The US system can lead to progress but it is slow and painful and contains more ugly compromises compared to better designed democracies. And the people who pushed politicians into supporting those things often withheld support until the politician changed. People should not vote for Joe Biden while he supports genocide in Gaza.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:59
|
|
|
People also should not vote for Donald Trump while he supports a genocide in Gaza. Ideally you should question the legitimacy of a system which only gives you genocide as an option.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:I don't give a poo poo about electoralism one way or another but I want you to understand how loving callous it is to equate that moral position of not wanting to vote for a genocide supporter with "being afraid of cooties," as if the only disqualifying factor is that Joe Biden likes the wrong kind of soda. Biden winning doesn't cause genocide in Israel (it doesn't prevent it, but it doesn't prevent the genocide in Myanmar either and nobody here is mad about that) but Biden losing does cause genocide in Ukraine. If genocide is the main issue for you Biden is the obvious choice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:01
|
|
|
It feels like the lesser of two evils conversation is really deontology vs. utilitarianism, a dispute that we aren't arguing at the right level to resolve and would be very unlikely to resolve even if we were. All of this hypothesizing about how Joe Biden or the Democratic Party will act or not in response to your individual vote is silly - they won't notice or care about your individual vote, especially if you don't cast it at all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:08
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:I don't give a poo poo about electoralism one way or another but I want you to understand how loving callous it is to equate that moral position of not wanting to vote for a genocide supporter with "being afraid of cooties," as if the only disqualifying factor is that Joe Biden likes the wrong kind of soda. Biden winning doesn't cause genocide in Israel (it doesn't prevent it, but it doesn't prevent the genocide in Myanmar either and nobody here is mad about that) but Biden losing does cause genocide in Ukraine. If genocide is the main issue for you Biden is the obvious choice. edit: if the issue is specifically Palestine and not genocide in general I don't think voting for Biden is as obvious a choice. I just think if that's the case, you should be honest that you are narrowly focused on Palestine and not talking about all genocide (which isn't evil to think or anything, like it's reasonable for Palestinians to care more about Palestine than Ukraine)
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:08
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:Biden winning doesn't cause genocide in Israel (it doesn't prevent it, but it doesn't prevent the genocide in Myanmar either and nobody here is mad about that) but Biden losing does cause genocide in Ukraine. If genocide is the main issue for you Biden is the obvious choice. What you do in the ballot box is private and unknowable, but if Biden thinks there are a lot of people who won't vote for him if he does certain things, that seems a lot more likely to change his behavior than if all of those people were clear they would vote for him no matter what he did It feels like even if you actually did vote for him in the end, it's really valuable for him to think you won't vote for him if he keeps up the genocide support, right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:08
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:Biden winning doesn't cause genocide in Israel (it doesn't prevent it, but it doesn't prevent the genocide in Myanmar either and nobody here is mad about that) but Biden losing does cause genocide in Ukraine. If genocide is the main issue for you Biden is the obvious choice. The Biden administration is currently providing the weapons Israel is using to carry out a genocide. The Trump administration almost undoubtedly would too, but a vote for Biden is still voting for a pro-genocide candidate. If you think “Biden/ Harris 2024: Half as many genocides as the other guy!” Is a strong moral case and a good election slogan, I can only say I disagree.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:08
|
|
|
https://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video/biden-losing-support-muslim-arab-american-voters-michigan-105533564 A 4 minute video about Biden losing support of Muslim and Arab Americans in Michigan. They are willing to not vote for him, which could cost him the election, because of his support of apartheid in Palestine
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:Biden winning doesn't cause genocide in Israel (it doesn't prevent it, but it doesn't prevent the genocide in Myanmar either and nobody here is mad about that) but Biden losing does cause genocide in Ukraine. If genocide is the main issue for you Biden is the obvious choice. It causes genocide here in the US. No need to sell it short. Trump is quite blunt about the camps and the plans to use the surveillance state and a retooled administrative state to round up millions of people living in this country right now--including political enemies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:10
|
|
|
I think it's important to define what is actually genocide here. Saying Americans are experiencing a genocide seems unsupported.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:13
|
|
|
Pleasant Friend posted:You are literally advocating for genocide without saying "I want a big genocide". What the gently caress do you think a "collapse" is going to look like. Many Trump supporters are more radical than Al-Qaeda and they want all queer people in the USA and the whole world dead. Yes I loving love genocide and so do all the other fuckers. Poor opsec on our part that you caught on. I've got people in my life I'll be fighting for, if it comes to it. These systems don't eradicate right wing hatred and they aren't the only defense against it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:16
|
|
|
ghost of kissinger posted:I think it's important to define what is actually genocide here. Saying Americans are experiencing a genocide seems unsupported. Idk what the legal definition of genocide is but it certainly seems like trans people face a very real existential threat from only one of the parties
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:18
|
|
|
Bodyholes posted:It causes genocide here in the US. No need to sell it short. Trump is quite blunt about the camps and the plans to use the surveillance state and a retooled administrative state to round up millions of people living in this country right now--including political enemies. We've seen the trump era red state playbook when they get trifectas and they have a hard time not qualifying for it for how they want to target some groups They will 100% turn border patrol and immigration into exactly what they were toying with before, too, it's going to be repurposed for minority round-up terror squad militia. But don't worry, i'm sure you have your papers in order, citizen
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:27
|
|
|
This very argument is a symptom of the disease that is the two party system, and anyone who justifiably thinks even the lesser of the two evils is past the line really ought to take steps in helping the promotion of ways to tear down the two party system (like implementing alternative voting systems like ranked choice and such) Ranked choice voting is on the ballot on my state next year, I sure as hell hope it and other alternatives spread to the states of everyone else in this argument
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:31
|
|
|
BRJurgis posted:Yes I loving love genocide and so do all the other fuckers. Poor opsec on our part that you caught on. What do you mean opsec? It was supposed to be secret? You're literally talking about wanting a collapse. That WILL cause genocide. A bigger genocide than most people can imagine because you can't accelerate into climate action, because acceleration will, by necessity, cause irreversible catastrophic climate change that will cause the deaths of (hundreds?) of millions of people in Africa and Polynesia.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:36
|
|
|
Has the collapse of a society ever brought about some socialist utopia? If it has what % of the population dying did that cost?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:37
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:Characterizing not wanting to vote for someone who supports genocide as not wanting to get cooties is wild and minimizes the genocide that is happening. Saying talking to girls gives you cooties doesn't minimize the menace that is head lice.  Gripweed posted:If Biden loses because he lost the support of people who care about the lives of Muslims, then the Democrats might learn that they need to change their policies to court those voters. Consider that in this election where you vote against Joe Biden because he was too unkind to Muslims, there is somebody else somewhere who voted against him for being too unkind to Israel. So how is the party supposed to figure out what message you were trying to send? Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:If Biden loses because he lost the support of people who care about the lives of Muslims, then the Democrats might learn that they need to change their policies to court those voters. Yeah how many votes would he lose if he stopped supporting Israel though? They have a well organized voting bloc.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
Why does everyone in the succ thread have AI generated avatars of Bernie Sanders when they've already disowned him? He hasn't called for a ceasefire either, and he endorsed Joe Biden in 2020 after dropping out. What a wild time when Bernie Sanders, Noam Chomsky, AOC, and Ralph loving Nader are all sitting here saying "this time it's different, Donald Trump is really too dangerous we can't let him get another term". I guess they're all sellouts? Good thing we have very smart people with very large brains that have figured out politics to tell us this. How embarrassing, we almost got Sanders for president in 2016. Good thing we let him lose so we can find someone more progressive though. Phew! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:Has the collapse of a society ever brought about some socialist utopia? If it has what % of the population dying did that cost? Earlier someone brought up the black death as an example so some people ITT might be willing to go up to ~50-60% and wait 200ish more years for something better for the common person to emerge from the ashes of the collapse.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 14:08 |
|
|
Digamma-F-Wau posted:This very argument is a symptom of the disease that is the two party system, and anyone who justifiably thinks even the lesser of the two evils is past the line really ought to take steps in helping the promotion of ways to tear down the two party system (like implementing alternative voting systems like ranked choice and such) I mean ranked choice is good for letting you protest vote without wasting your vote if you care about that, but the underlying problem is there aren't enough leftists (or whatever you want to call it). The Israel support is because for 80 years the members of the public that care about the issue have mostly been pro Israel, a voting system can't change that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:47
|
|