|
Seems like the best way to go then is to work on energizing and uniting leftest voters, while also voting in a way that ensures they are allowed to continue to exist.
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 21:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 21:59 |
|
|
But my purity! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
Wayne Knight posted:Seems like the best way to go then is to work on energizing and uniting leftest voters, while also voting in a way that ensures they are allowed to continue to exist. That sort of my strategy... at least the way I conceptualize it. -Vote for the better democrat in the primaries -Vote for the democrat in the general pretty much always -Make republicans lose so much that they are forced to moderate to win -Once republicans have moderated sufficiently, THEN let democrats eat poo poo to speed up the process of selecting for better ones. The last two steps are important because without them you're not really punishing dems for being insufficiently left, you're rewarding republicans for becoming more and more extreme. You'd think after 2000 and 2016 the accelerationist left would learn something, but like all death cults empirical evidence is not really something they value.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:04
|
|
|
Misunderstood posted:It zero percent does that. It minimizes the utility of not voting because of it. Are the Muslim and Arab Americans - whose friends and families have been murdered in Gaza - afraid of cooties because they don't want to vote for Biden as he continues to support Israel in their genocide of Palestinians?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:And I don't care how you rationalize it, I'm asking you to show some empathy and not enable fascists to kill me because you're worried about maintaining your moral purity. Not voting for someone carrying out a genocide is not a matter of preserving moral purity.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
If you never win you never have to
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:10
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/HuffPostPol/status/1733931028815733182 Blinken says that with Hamas still alive, a cease fire would only help them, something that has been repeated many times over the past couple of months, but that the US is a proponent in humanitarian pauses and that they are trying to reduce the amount of Palestinian civilian casualties. Huffpo points out that what Blinken stated is contradicted by the State Department bypassing Congress to approve the emergency sale of tank ammunition to Israel. CAIR's Nihad Awad states that Biden admin is unconscionable in allowing ethnic cleansing, starvation, and genocide to continue quote:Secretary of State Antony Blinken defended the U.S. government’s decision to, for the second time, veto the United Nations Security Council’s resolution demanding an immediate cease-fire in Gaza, as Israel continues to kill and displace tens of thousands of Palestinians.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:19
|
|
|
Bodyholes posted:How embarrassing, we almost got Sanders for president in 2016. Good thing we let him lose so we can find someone more progressive though. Phew! Yeah, might have been a good thing. Between the Republican Congress and the covid pandemic, Bernie would've gone down in flames in 2020 and the brief dalliance with social democracy would be seen as the disaster that allowed the Chinese Communist Wuhan Virus to infect America and turn all the frogs gay.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:29
|
|
|
NomNomNom posted:A box of cheezits is five loving dollars at my local grocery store. A King Soopers out here has Bugles at the regular price of $3.29. Every so often they put it on sale for $1.49 if you buy 5 or more, probably aren't selling so well at the regular price. Also the inflation on soda has been absolutely insane.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:35
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:Has the collapse of a society ever brought about some socialist utopia? If it has what % of the population dying did that cost? I do think it's worth noting that the first person who brought up a collapse (also the person who most explicitly argued for it as a 100% good thing that he would like it to happen) isn't a socialist or a leftist, but a very dim libertarian who thinks he'll get an Ayn Rand utopia from the collapse.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:36
|
|
|
Same can pretty much be said for present Hillary as well. 2018 would have been an absolute bloodbath for the Democrats and the vaccine skepticism would have been so much worse. I am in no way saying that I'm glad Trump was president, but these factors should also be considered alongside the obvious negatives.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:38
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:If you never win you never have to The US degrading into an autocracy where the right gets absolute power and the token representation the left has is in an electoral prison is perfect for a certain type of liberal that likes complaining and lecturing about things and doesn't actually like changing things.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:38
|
|
|
Moktaro posted:Also the inflation on soda has been absolutely insane. Is that really a bad thing considering how unhealthy it is? theCalamity posted:Blinken says that with Hamas still alive, a cease fire would only help them, So is the official US stance unironically that the war will end once every member of Hamas (going by their, uh, payrolls or something) is dead?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:43
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:Has the collapse of a society ever brought about some socialist utopia? If it has what % of the population dying did that cost? The contemporary right and all associated autocratic or theocratic bodies only offer one material lesson: they're not any sort of engaged or 'good faith' participants in any kind of democracy anymore, they're the actual revolutionaries. Their electoral base is committed to them without any shame of antidemocratic efforts; 'conquering' any impediment to their minority rule is actively championed. Here in the US, as a singular example, the J6 insurrection is not disowned, it is celebrated and excused. If any of these contemporary conservative factions sweep and get in strong enough to end democratic structures, they absolutely do so. Then everything gets to the level of "bad enough" that is supposed to bring about whatever the acceleration of bad things was supposed to make Happen™ — but the expected protests never materialize in a way which can overcome the expansive, brutal powers of subjugation the post-republic has gifted itself. things then just continue to get steadily and regularly worse, cruelly mirroring the endless decline that the accelerationism was supposed to inhibit by being more relentless, more fatal to persecuted classes, and faster. Professor Beetus posted:I do think it's worth noting that the first person who brought up a collapse (also the person who most explicitly argued for it as a 100% good thing that he would like it to happen) isn't a socialist or a leftist, but a very dim libertarian who thinks he'll get an Ayn Rand utopia from the collapse. Absolutely tracks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:49
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:Calling those who don’t want to vote for people who support genocide selfish is a hell of a characterization. I don’t do this to make myself feel superior. I do it because I don’t want to vote for someone who supports genocide. Can you explain to me how you manage to think like this? You deny yout motivation as selfish and then directly and immediately describe your motivation as a purely selfish one. There's clearly some sort of mental disconnect.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:49
|
|
|
I drink a fuckton of soda and I don't give a poo poo that the price has gone up because, even drinking an unbelievably huge poo poo ton of soda, the price going up has probably, over the course of the last ten years, added up to costing me two hundred extra bucks a year, for something that is the vast majority of what I drink. People also exaggerate the price to a ridiculous degree, although I know there's regional variation and higher in places that have soda taxes, but I can get a 12 pack at the gas station near me for $8.50. 5 years ago it would've been like, $6.99. And yet everybody who talks about it online acts like you have to Know a Guy to pay less than ten bucks for one. I regularly pay $10.99 for 24 packs and I live in a high COL area. You can imagine how the process of people getting less mad at high prices works: right now, everybody is still finding it cathartic to talk about the high prices they pay for things. In a few months, it's going to be less interesting, because the prices are going to be pretty much the same as they were a few months ago. And over time, people find other things to talk about (and complain about). Like, talking about "gee whiz this thing costs so much!" is a nice way to connect with pretty much everybody, across any demographic or cultural signifier. It's not "we're all in this together" but at least it's "we're all in this." So it's a good subject for small talk, as long as it's on people's minds. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:50
|
|
|
FLIPADELPHIA posted:Same can pretty much be said for present Hillary as well. 2018 would have been an absolute bloodbath for the Democrats and the vaccine skepticism would have been so much worse. I am willing to entertain the argument that letting Trump win in 2016 had some positives. The left did gain some strength in Congress with the squad and justice dems and while Bernie didn't win in 2020, Biden has actually passed a decent chunk of Bernie's domestic platform. This came at the cost of normalizing far right discourse in mainstream politics. MAGA would've been dead on arrival for a generation if it had lost to Hillary. Personally I think allowing Gore to lose in 2000 was the bigger strategic mistake. Veith V Jubilerer and Citizens United have made our task so much harder, and have pushed the US so much closer to autocracy. Someone much earlier in the thread said "if it only takes one election to fall to fascism, that democracy was fake and doomed", and I think that is true, but I think we already have two strikes on the board from the massively damaging Supreme Court cases that followed 2000 and then the normalization of fascist ideology in 2016. I don't think we can take another strike... although it looks like we're going to.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:54
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:Biden winning doesn't cause genocide in Israel (it doesn't prevent it, but it doesn't prevent the genocide in Myanmar either and nobody here is mad about that) but Biden losing does cause genocide in Ukraine. If genocide is the main issue for you Biden is the obvious choice. I don't think it's really clear how Biden losing causes genocide in Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:00
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Can you explain to me how you manage to think like this? You deny yout motivation as selfish and then directly and immediately describe your motivation as a purely selfish one. There's clearly some sort of mental disconnect. Not voting for people who support genocide isn't selfish. There's certainly a mental disconnect, but it's not on my part. Would you call the many Arab and Muslim Americans who lost friends and families in this ongoing genocide selfish because they don't want to vote for Biden?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:05
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:I don't think it's really clear how Biden losing causes genocide in Ukraine. The rights been increasingly clear they wish to stop funding Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:07
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:Not voting for people who support genocide isn't selfish. You are going into a box. You have two choices: you can check the box next to "Joe Biden" or you can write in "End Genocide." You choose the latter. Who benefits from that action and how?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:10
|
|
|
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-criminalizes-extremist-lgbt-movement/ar-AA1kNS7W https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/russian-police-raid-moscow-gay-162039582.html quote:Police in Russia have raided four gay nightclubs in Moscow, the night after a court effectively banned LGBT activism. I assume this will be among the many social exports the Russians will impose on an occupied Ukraine. Maybe it'll come to the US as well depending how far we fall? Wouldn't rule it out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:13
|
|
|
Misunderstood posted:Let's put it this way. i would simply not go into the box
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:17
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:The rights been increasingly clear they wish to stop funding Ukraine. How does stopping funding lead to genocide? For the time being, it seems like Joe is willing to play ball and throw immigrants under a bus. Biden open to 'significant' concessions on border security in return for Ukraine aid www.telegraph.co.uk posted:Joe Biden pleaded with Republicans on Wednesday for a fresh infusion of military aid for Ukraine, warning that a victory for Russia would leave Putin in position to attack Nato allies and could draw US troops into a war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:18
|
|
|
"I would simply walk away from the trolley control booth."
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:20
|
|
|
Nucleic Acids posted:Not voting for someone carrying out a genocide is not a matter of preserving moral purity. It is not inherently a matter of preserving personal moral purity - there are plenty of reasons to vote against someone carrying one out. But in this specific instance thats the main reason people are actually giving for why they are taking the action. Presumably if they had a better reason they'd be using that one instead, but they aren't. theCalamity posted:Not voting for people who support genocide isn't selfish. There's certainly a mental disconnect, but it's not on my part. It doesnt have to be selfish, but you have clarified multiple times now that for you specifically it absolutely is selfishness and nothing but. You havent offered a non selfishness based reason yet, despite having a clear desire to do so. The best argument youve offered so far is that its justified because it doesnt matter... But thats the sort of argument you wouldnt be making if you had a non selfish motivation. You also seem to be of the belief that I am using the word as some sort of stand in for "generically bad", which I am not - selfishness is often understandable, justifiable, and even good, although Id argue all those outcomes are more likely for someone recognizing their intent is selfish to begin with. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:20
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:"I would simply walk away from the trolley control booth." Uh oh, i’ve been put in the Discendo Box
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:22
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:i would simply not go into the box The box is America
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:22
|
|
|
Misunderstood posted:Let's put it this way. I live in a red state. It doesn't matter. Where it does matter is a state like Michigan where Arab and Muslim American leaders are organizing to call for others to not vote for Biden because of his support of the genocide in Palestine. Are they selfish or childish?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:23
|
|
|
Bodyholes posted:I am willing to entertain the argument that letting Trump win in 2016 had some positives. The left did gain some strength in Congress with the squad and justice dems and while Bernie didn't win in 2020, Biden has actually passed a decent chunk of Bernie's domestic platform. Bush not winning means the US doesn't invade Iraq for no loving reason. It's also possible that a Gore administration, still swept up in the chase for vengeance after 9/11 (assuming they ignore intel like the Bush one did) accept the Taliban's offers and get Bin Laden that much sooner and possibly end the Afghanistan war a decade earlier. There were 327 federal judges Bush appointed, including Alito and of course Chief Justice Roberts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:23
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:The box is America how do i get out of this box
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:24
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:i would simply not go into the box Now hold on a minute, let's hear out Mr. Genocide's social policies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:25
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:"I would simply walk away from the trolley control booth." To attempt to stop the trolley completely
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:26
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:how do i get out of this box Same way you get off Mr Bones Wild Ride.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:26
|
|
|
Pleasant Friend posted:Yes. But the biggest genocide supporters are the people who actively preach to other people how they don't vote, implicitly trying to shame and convince other people to do the same, which is tangibly indistinguishably from campaigning for Trump and for Russian interests. I missed this and wanted to acknowledge it. Thank you for your response. I disagree in your assessment of who are the biggest genocide supporters. I'm not sure who is, but the people campaigning against a ceasefire are greater genocide supporters than people who say "I won't vote for Biden because I think it is immoral to." For an example of whom I mean by the former, see here the folks trying to convince the president in a more than implicit fashion: Remarks by President Biden at a Campaign Reception | Minneapolis, MN | The White House www.whitehouse.gov posted:And the previous President, who is seeking the job again, was asked what he thought about it. You know what he said? He said, “There are very fine people on both sides.” “Very fine people on both sides.”
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:26
|
|
|
Misunderstood posted:There is absolutely no possible way they would learn that lesson, and it's not because they are Bad and want to Hurt Muslims and will come up with whatever reasoning they need to, it's because an election is a pretty broad brush and they have no way to draw signals directly out of the noise, which is why parties spend millions on in-depth post mortems after each elections. This paragraph contradicts itself. You say the Democrats can’t draw signals from the noise, which is why they spend millions doing just that? If Democrats lose a swing state and post election polling shows a number of people who didn’t vote for Democrats because of Gaza that is greater than the number of votes they lost by, that seems pretty clear. And your position that Democrats aren’t Bad and don’t want to Hurt Muslims requires evidence. Do you have any sources supporting that?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:28
|
|
|
RealityWarCriminal posted:To attempt to stop the trolley completely No trolley? No problem!
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:28
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Uh oh, i’ve been put in the Discendo Box The box is political agency. This is some serious Erich Fromm poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:29
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:Do we know this for real across different times and places? I suspect for a lot of people it's more like supporting one's sports team no matter what, but I cannot declare this confidently. Have you studied about this issue? I suspect most people heavily lean towards one party, so that lines up with what I posted and what you're saying. I haven't looked too closely for a study that shows exactly what I stated, but it's an educated guess based on conversations among people, seeing conversations in news articles/online, seeing how nearly everyone who votes in a presidential election votes for the D/R candidate despite having disagreements with said candidate, etc. Byzantine posted:The Gazans? Palestinians are hosed regardless of whatever the outcome of presidential elections have been since WWII. Although, currently, they're probably slightly better off with Biden being president over Trump. For an anecdotal example of why I think this, I'm guessing Yemenis would have rather had Biden in charge when Pompeo was selling $8bn in weapons to Saudi Arabia/their allies. But to the point of your quote of my post, if you wouldn't have cut out that one sentence, you can easily see who I was talking about. I'll bold it for you with the entirety of my post: Kalit posted:Honestly, I can't think of the last time a president and most of congress haven't [accidentally or purposefully] attempted or directly supported attempts of genocide. It sucks, but the alternative is not voting, having said support of genocide escalating even higher, and watching more and more marginalized people in our country suffer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 21:59 |
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:The box is political agency. This is some serious Erich Fromm poo poo. May i see the box?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 23:30
|
|