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I just hope regeneration is still the norm, and bigeneration was something special for the 60th/soft reboot.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:51
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One thing I noticed during the Spice Girls scene is that the line “yellow man in Timbuktu” – which the girls have since replaced in live performances – is covered up by the gun sound effects. Which makes this the second Toymaker story where a racist line has had to be dubbed over with a “cough cough ANYWAY”.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:02
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I am betting it will. Doing it now let's them reboot the series and drop a lot of emotional baggage and let new viewers join with a cleaner plate. I'm along for the ride, plenty of pessimistic ways to view it but until reality hits me with that wall I'm happy to give benefit of the doubt if no other reason than my own sake. I've had my fill of feeling sour about Doctor Who for a while the previous past few years.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:04
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Infinitum posted:I just hope regeneration is still the norm, and bigeneration was something special for the 60th/soft reboot. The episode seems to imply that it's the new normal. I'd be cool if it's a Timeless Child thing though, this idea that Gallifreyians were only capable of exploiting part of what the Doctor was capable of and that interaction with the Toymaker and other extra-universal life unlocked part of the Doctor's own extra-universal aspects. If only because it'd make that revelation somewhat meaningful.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:10
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OldMemes posted:I loved it...until the bi-regeneration. Agreed. I really hope at some point Tennant Doctor gets folded back into Gatwa Doctor. I understand how important it was for the Doctor to come face to face with themself and love themself, but the Doctor is a Person, no matter how exaggerated. They have A life, not two. We don't have two. It loses dramatic cohesion. And also if they keep using Tennant Doctor then it is, frankly, undermining the first black Doctor. No way around it
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Dec 11, 2023 00:11
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Fil5000 posted:Huh. That's a thing I don't think we've ever had happen before.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:13
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Happy 60th page for the 60th anniversary, Who thread! I might've just griped a bit, but I'm back in love with this mad, silly, heartfelt thing. Never be cruel, and never be cowardly. Never give up, and never give in. And never, ever eat pears!
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Dec 11, 2023 00:16
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I feel that if anything, the specials were a gentle but firm invitation to stop taking things so seriously and just embrace the fun. I am a newer fan, but watching the 50th anniversary annoyed me because it broke the fundamental "rules" of the show, and then 11 just started a whole new set of regenerations, and then (from what I understand at least, I kinda fell off during 12's seasons) the Timeless Child and Flux shenanigans took the rules of the Doctor and just threw them out the window. And I'm kinda okay with that? Passing the torch shouldn't always have to be tragic and heartbreaking. I think it's nice that there's an incarnation of the Doctor that gets a happy ending in a show that's been going (and will clearly continue to) over 60 years now. Ncuti's doctor feels like a fresh renewal after 6 regenerations of post-Time War baggage and feels like a clear line drawn between the modern era of Doctor Who and a brand new one.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:16
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Yeah, don't get me wrong - Gatwa's Doctor being a fully healed person is wonderful. Seriously, wonderful. My favourite part of the whole thing.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:20
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Warthur posted:To be fair, we don't know how long the gap between The Deadly Assassin and The Face of Evil is. It's completely possible that the Doctor spent an absolute age wandering around by himself and getting increasingly absent-minded during that time, and in fact Face of Evil kind of makes it likely - because there's no mention of Sarah Jane having accompanied the Doctor on his previous visit. I haven't read the novelization of The Face of Evil in ages, but IIRC, I believe it specified that the Doctor encountered the computer that would eventually become Xoanon shortly after his regeneration, when he was still a bit scatterbrained, during the very brief moment in Robot when he was departing in the TARDIS before Sarah Jane managed to get him to come back. Linking the computer to himself in order to reprogram it is what eventually drove the computer mad in the televised story, and I believe the novelization expanded upon that further by basically saying since the Doctor's brain was still reworking itself after the regeneration, the computer basically copied all that chaos into itself and eventually developed several personalities because it couldn't cope with the Doctor's post-regeneration brain patterns.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:21
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If they ever want to 'explain' it, then i'd go with a river and tributary analogy. When Fourteen dies, he just dissipates back into the vortex, rejoining Fifteen or whichever is the current version.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:23
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Gaz-L posted:If they ever want to 'explain' it, then i'd go with a river and tributary analogy. When Fourteen dies, he just dissipates back into the vortex, rejoining Fifteen or whichever is the current version.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:34
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I don’t really see how X-2 eventually becoming Fourteen (Gatwa) is supposed to work. Is he supposed to one day say “oh hey, I fixed my trauma” and then his essence warps wherever in time and space to the moment he bi-generates in The Giggle? Does the second TARDIS just vanish in the aether? It’s obvious they’re now two branching paths. My interpretation of the bi-generation is closer to Majin Buu. Majin Buu befriended Mr. Satan and his internal conflict became to great that the evil within him literally evaporated out of his body, which became Super Buu. Majin Buu and Super Buu lived on as two distinct entities. In The Giggle, The Doctor is shot with the giant laser, triggering the bi-generation. The Fourteen Doctor is born, separated from his trauma, figuratively and literally. But that doesn’t mean that X-2 is stuck forever with his trauma. As we see, he’s given a chance to live a normal life and heal one day at a time. As in DBZ, Goku requests that the evil Buu get a chance at redemption and so he is reborn as Uub.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:35
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Detective No. 27 posted:I don’t really see how X-2 eventually becoming Fourteen (Gatwa) is supposed to work. Is he supposed to one day say “oh hey, I fixed my trauma” and then his essence warps wherever in time and space to the moment he bi-generates in The Giggle? Does the second TARDIS just vanish in the aether? It’s obvious they’re now two branching paths. Yeah, the bit about the fifteenth Doctor being older made no sense to me either. They're the same age!
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Dec 11, 2023 00:45
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The bi-generation forced all of the Doctor's trauma out into Tennant/14/X-2 who eventually regenerates into the Valeyard, and 15/Gatwa achieves Ultra Instinct form which is able to override his bloodless legal logic.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:47
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Barry Foster posted:Agreed. Second. Just because Timeless Child was poo poo doesn't mean Jo Martin wasn't the first black Doctor.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:51
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Open Source Idiom posted:Yeah, the bit about the fifteenth Doctor being older made no sense to me either. They're the same age! Timey wimey As I understood it, 15’s a bit of a paradox. He’s the next in line after 14, but he exists as he is because of the period of healing 14 is about to do.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:52
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The only way for the biregenerarion to work for me is that the 15th Doctor is plucked somewhere in time from his future after the 14th Doctor did all the work and eventually regenerates into the 15th Doctor proper. The idea he's the Doctor, but in a better mind frame, without that lived experience doesn't play well without some kind of handwave of the in-between time. Otherwise he is a different character missing a part of himself (the trauma).
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Dec 11, 2023 00:53
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Barry Foster posted:And also if they keep using Tennant Doctor then it is, frankly, undermining the first black Doctor. No way around it The first was also alongside a white one. Gatwa is already amazing, but it does suck that for 60 years, one actor passed the baton to another, and suddenly when it's a black actor, we have to have the single most popular white one exist alongside him.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:54
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LividLiquid posted:Second black Doctor. Yeah that's fair, I genuinely forgot Jo But in my defense, it's because I didn't watch anything by Chibnall after the first season But mea culpa, wholly Edit and yes, your last paragraph is absolutely how I feel
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Dec 11, 2023 00:57
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Detective No. 27 posted:I don’t really see how X-2 eventually becoming Fourteen (Gatwa) is supposed to work. Is he supposed to one day say “oh hey, I fixed my trauma” and then his essence warps wherever in time and space to the moment he bi-generates in The Giggle? Does the second TARDIS just vanish in the aether? It’s obvious they’re now two branching paths. now I understand perfectly (genuinely)
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Dec 11, 2023 00:59
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Harlock posted:The only way for the biregenerarion to work for me is that the 15th Doctor is plucked somewhere in time from his future after the 14th Doctor did all the work and eventually regenerates into the 15th Doctor proper. The idea he's the Doctor, but in a better mind frame, without that lived experience doesn't play well without some kind of handwave of the in-between time. This was my read basically, that at some point 14 is going to find himself ready to adventure again, get himself killed, have a proper regeneration into 15, who's then going to be smushed back into 14 (or maybe even earlier) at some point, ready to be pulled out when the moment arises. Whatever space magic gets them this way is an exercise for another multi doctor episode maybe next Christmas.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:04
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Detective No. 27 posted:Majin Buu I don't take it a Buu way, I think could be when 14 was made, both incarnations are already stuck together. Perhaps that's why 10 was able to express love so effortlessly, there's technically that paradoxically time healed version mashed in, and the toy maker laser just splits them apart which looks like a regeneration, but is essentially the culmination of the initial weird regeneration. I can also see it being just the simple timey wimey paradox of that attack splitting into old doctor and healed doctor, with the latter being the result of the former living and dying/rejoining. Either way I don't see them as branches, it's taking a ruler, chopping off a bit of the middle put and gluing the ends back together, and slide it up, so you get to 1 meter with fewer ticks on the ruler. Off to the side is the bit that was cut out but we already know it ends.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:13
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I'm tired and may be misreading you but if 'the bit that was left to the side' was 11, 12 and 13, then that sucks
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Dec 11, 2023 01:19
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They clearly offer a laundry list of sources for trauma for Doctor Who dating back as far as Sarah Kingdom's death at the hands of Mavic Chen. This is definitely to make sure that every doctor from Hartnell through tennant the second are equally going to therapy, not that 11 through 13 are unique in their positions as worn out. And also, it's not as if RTD is introducing the drat idea that the Doctor is exhaustes. Large parts of Capaldi's run were about this - he nearly refused to regenerate at all! Anyway, the Doctor tells the Old Doctor that they are "doing rehab out of order". While this doesn't lock any specific sequence of events down beyond the ability of Big Finish and Bad Wolf productions to play around in the future, I think you have to be engaging in a paranoid reading to not interpret that as some form of twisted linear experience.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:30
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Barry Foster posted:I'm tired and may be misreading you but if 'the bit that was left to the side' was 11, 12 and 13, then that sucks I don’t like that read either. However in 30 years time, I get the feeling that Tennant will be held in the same regard as Tom Baker as “everyone’s Doctor”. The Smith-Capaldi-Whittaker run will probably be our version of the Davison-Baker-McCoy era, in terms of cultural memory.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:32
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Khanstant posted:Either way I don't see them as branches, it's taking a ruler, chopping off a bit of the middle put and gluing the ends back together, and slide it up, so you get to 1 meter with fewer ticks on the ruler. Off to the side is the bit that was cut out but we already know it ends. How do you factor in the second TARDIS? The metaphor isn’t a one meter ruler, it’s an inch-worm. And when you cut an worm in half, they grow into two different worms.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:36
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Detective No. 27 posted:How do you factor in the second TARDIS? The second Tardis was created by hitting it with a cartoon hammer in the shadow of a reality-restructuring extra-universal anomaly. There have been plenty of Doctor Who stories in expanded media where the Tardis splits, buds, and re-fuses with itself. Just like the Doctor, the tardis is a complicated space-time event.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:39
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Khanstant posted:Either way I don't see them as branches, it's taking a ruler, chopping off a bit of the middle put and gluing the ends back together, and slide it up, so you get to 1 meter with fewer ticks on the ruler. Off to the side is the bit that was cut out but we already know it ends. It's this. The link between 14 and 15 is causually bound when 15 says "I'm fine because I'm you after you have fixed yourself". Emotional / story logic trumps fan takes on how proper causation is meant to work. The "rational" nuts and bolts of how 14's healed psyche transfers to 15 and how that can be depicted with reference to real world physics is exactly what RTD is not interested in and that approach is what gave us wibbly wobbly, the Time War and revived Doctor Who in the first place and now we have the "jigsaw" of the Doctors past. He is also now "a billion years old" and so that's one more thing to not have to worry about, good. It's brilliant and I appreciate that he's undoing a lot of stray and stale plot threads and knots with a wave of the Toymakers hand. It also calls back to The Mind Robber and the idea of a Land of Fiction outside the rules of our mathematically correct universe, so there's more canon precedent. I'm also very impressed that RTD has been able bring the godawful Timeless Child into the story logic of Doctor Who and leaving Gallifrey as a stepping stone in the Doctors story. A classy move. It's a masterclass of retconning. Incidentally I watched it with my 7 year old (who has seen The Mind Robber) and they loved it too and cannot wait for the new season to start.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:46
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Dec 11, 2023 01:58
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HD DAD posted:I don’t like that read either. However in 30 years time, I get the feeling that Tennant will be held in the same regard as Tom Baker as “everyone’s Doctor”. The Smith-Capaldi-Whittaker run will probably be our version of the Davison-Baker-McCoy era, in terms of cultural memory. Yeah  But that's the Passage and Vagaries of Time, and I can live with that. I loved 5, 6 and 7, and I was only actually alive for one of them. And I only truly fell in love with them via audio plays. But hey, I'm back on board. Doctor Who forever! Run fast, laugh hard, be kind
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Dec 11, 2023 02:00
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 Chibnall was begging for another Time War but RTD integrated into Who canon without breaking a sweat. ...also wanted to add I used to dislike a lot of RTD writing pre Moffat and sometimes whinged about it here but Moffats era gave me a lot of the kind of Who I wanted to see and while that was happening I read a lot of Tardis Eruditorium by Elizabeth Sandifer which prompted me to rethink how I saw the show. So I enjoy these specials and The Giggle in particular. If you haven't read Tardis Eruditorium I recommend this entry on The Mind Robber as relevant to what RTD has done here.
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Dec 11, 2023 02:09
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Kind of shocked that since this story deals with the first televised video, they had the restraint not to show some monitor or screen somewhere with the Magpie logo
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Dec 11, 2023 02:10
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Magpie logo
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Dec 11, 2023 02:14
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LividLiquid posted:Second black Doctor. With the combination of writing and performance, Jo Martin absolutely upstaged Jodie Whittaker (made her revealed Doctor seem more like the actual character than Jodie ever got a chance to be). And frankly, assuming Tennant returns to the main series instead of potentially guesting on a UNIT spin-off once or twice, I expect the same thing we just saw: a great actor and popular Doctor being eclipsed by Gatwa's ridiculous charm. As I said to my mother on Saturday, he hasn't even really switched on the charm yet. He was operating at about a six. I'm prepared to see how things go. Jodie got screwed over by the writing during her tenure, not because Chibnall wanted to sabotage the first woman to play the Doctor. I don't think RTD wants to sabotage Gatwa and if Tennant doesn't return I don't see how the bigeneration undermines things any more than happens with any multidoctor story (Three and Two sparring while One treats them like children; Five getting to be the hapless straight-man against Two and Three; Eleven getting a whole new Doctor added played by John Hurt on top of Ten). Between streaming and other media, all the Doctors exist at the same time anyway.
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Dec 11, 2023 02:19
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The irony is that the prophecy from Trial of the Time Lord is now sort of true. The Doctor did split around his 12th regeneration.
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Dec 11, 2023 02:19
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LividLiquid posted:The what, now? Ever since The Idiot’s Lantern, the show has tossed in Magpie Electric logos for TVs and such as easter eggs. Actually, looking at the wiki, it’s been in tons of stuff I didn’t catch before. Big Mean Jerk fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 02:23
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Narsham posted:not because Chibnall wanted to sabotage . . . I don't think RTD wants to sabotage If I accidentally shoot you in the face, I still have to take you to the hospital and you get to be mad at me even though I didn't intend to do it. I can't just throw my hands up and be like, "I didn't mean to shoot you, therefore you are not shot." Big Mean Jerk posted:Ever since The Idiot’s Lantern, the show has tossed in Magpie Electric logos for TVs and such as easter eggs.
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Dec 11, 2023 02:29
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Pops Mgee posted:I just realized we're going to have to watch Tennant bite it a second time. Huh…
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Dec 11, 2023 02:39
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LividLiquid posted:I'm with you on just going with it because Gatwa is already perfect, but I have to say, it really doesn't matter whether somebody intended to do damage if they did that damage. The only people for whom Gatwa has been actually undermined by this were already bad faith bigots looking for excuses not to accepting him. Anyway on the subject of Magpie what I was really surprised by was that there was no homage to the original opening sequence. Since there was so much fixation on television cameras and image reproduction, the feedback television loop that created the original Doctor Who opening could have fit in pretty seamlessly.
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Dec 11, 2023 02:50
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