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On the other hand, iconoclast actions like allying with the Eldar or overthrowing corrupt nobles is something the heroes of the early Imperium would have done. And that regime was both nicer and ended in disaster!
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Dec 10, 2023 22:41
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Buschmaki posted:The guy working within the framework of the Imperium, but just "nicer", is NOT good. Whatever could you mean ? It even says "benevolentia" on the tin. Surely it's for the best to maintain the status quo with mere words and sound Reasons rather than crude violence and blind dogma, yes ? I"m sorry, that was just a blood vessel popping in my eye, don't worry. What were we saying ?
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Dec 10, 2023 22:41
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I always find it weird when writers put an Imperial hive world in the Expanse. Surely if it's a hive planet it would have gotten that way before Imperial compliance, given that the Imperium only showed up in the Expanse about 1000 years ago?
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Dec 10, 2023 22:43
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Iconoclast is explicitly not about "maintaining the status quo":.
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Dec 10, 2023 22:44
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I mean if robots girly man is an iconoclast where does that leave anyone else?
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Dec 10, 2023 22:45
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Horrible rear end in a top hat is the hidden fourth alignment, and it rocks. I've seen (although not taken) dialogue choices for: -Sticking a gun in a man's face at a fancy party as you flirtatiously tell his wife that her beauty is worth killing for -Opening fire on a crowd of your own citizens because you don't want to have to wait in a queue
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Dec 10, 2023 22:45
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Arglebargle III posted:I always find it weird when writers put an Imperial hive world in the Expanse. Surely if it's a hive planet it would have gotten that way before Imperial compliance, given that the Imperium only showed up in the Expanse about 1000 years ago? you've seen how fast people can assemble a huge pile of poo poo in minecraft hive spires work the same way
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Dec 10, 2023 22:46
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deep dish peat moss posted:The Iconoclast options are definitely not all operating within the framework of the imperium. One example is on Janus, an Iconoclast can hand the planet over to the Aeldari to prevent further bloodshed. A lot of Iconoclast options are basically "gently caress the space police", whereas the Heretic options are generally "slaughter people because you love to see suffering". Which arguably isn't exactly entirely in line with 40k lore, because most of the iconoclast options are pretty heretical. "Heretic" options are just plain aligning yourself with the chaos gods, not necessarily going against the whims of the Imperium. Xeno lover, that's even worse.
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Dec 10, 2023 22:49
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deep dish peat moss posted:The Iconoclast options are definitely not all operating within the framework of the imperium. One example is on Janus, an Iconoclast can hand the planet over to the Aeldari to prevent further bloodshed. A lot of Iconoclast options are basically "gently caress the space police", whereas the Heretic options are generally "slaughter people because you love to see suffering". Which arguably isn't exactly entirely in line with 40k lore, because most of the iconoclast options are pretty heretical. "Heretic" options are just plain aligning yourself with the chaos gods, not necessarily going against the whims of the Imperium. Yeah, a good way it demonstrates this is at the top of that screen there is a "puritan" side that is only dogmatic and an "radical" side that is both iconoclast and heresy. In Dark Heresy and the Inquisitor games radicals are a mix of people trying to make the imperium less fascist and people who have totally given themselves over to chaos, while puritans assume the former will end up becoming the latter eventually if they're not heretics hiding just how far gone they are. Maybe heresy should be renamed as chaos? Like I think most xeno friendly options end up iconoclast? There's a good line from Jae where she's like "yeah sure I work with xenos but I know where the line to being a traitor is and I've never crossed it" if you're pretty open about being cool with xenotech which gives a good way to distinguish between heretical and iconoclast.
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Dec 10, 2023 22:57
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Brendan Rodgers posted:Someone smarter than me please tell me how to build a melee officer that buffs frontliners, I'm getting mad analysis paralysis looking at this character creator. Especially since respec is apparently only for skillpoints and stuff and not the origin/homeworld stuff? I think I figured this out now by making a Hive World Noble Officer, but I'm sure I made a bunch of mistakes still.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:05
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Buschmaki posted:The guy working within the framework of the Imperium, but just "nicer", is NOT good.  the imperium can be reformed and salvaged in a way that chaos simply can't you're not really recognizing someone's humanity when you try to figure out what God they'd be the best sacrifice to
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Dec 10, 2023 23:11
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Black Griffon posted:How does dual wielding work in the game? If I equip another sword in Abelard's off-hand, it it just another weapon in my hand? Does it penalize attacks with my main weapon? there are ways to use both weapons but you have to pursue them if you don't have those talents you're better off mixing and matching for armor penetration vs damage types and special abilities for instance, the crude handaxe you find in the tutorial is excellent as a secondary melee weapon when you want to make a target Bleed, something your sword doesn't do
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Dec 10, 2023 23:14
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Bussamove posted:Yeah if you really want to get down to it any option not Dogmatic is either Heretical or Diet Heresy With Half the Calories because of what an awful, stagnant theocracy the Imperium is. You just get to get way with it and not have Argenta put a bolter round in you because you’re a Rogue Trader and that Warrant carries a lot of weight. at some point I'm going to end up having to kill the good sister and i've made peace with that i had her take Ignorance is Strength so her Knowledge of the Warp and Xenos is at -175
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Dec 10, 2023 23:18
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Arglebargle III posted:I always find it weird when writers put an Imperial hive world in the Expanse. Surely if it's a hive planet it would have gotten that way before Imperial compliance, given that the Imperium only showed up in the Expanse about 1000 years ago? it has been a hive world since Old Night or whenever it got settled
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Dec 10, 2023 23:20
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Blockhouse posted:Iconoclast is explicitly not about "maintaining the status quo":. Do highlight one Iconoclast choice that changes anything about the Empire or its' peoples' conditions in any way whatsoever. Bonus points if it's not just the Rogue Trader feeling good and even handed about themselves, squared. "OK you can keep doing... pretty much what we've all been doing all around in general. But NO guns or organizing, you gotta keep my cops and you gotta keep doing... whatever y'alls have been doing for ever on MY ship. It's just for the best. Aren't I the great conciliator or what ?!" EDIT : Like, NOT outright murdering anyone who strays from the status quo is not the same thing as challending it is not even the same thing as acting towards its change, yanno ? Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 23:22
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40k has room for everyone and everything, even Objectively Good people and xenos things.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:23
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Kobal2 posted:Do highlight one Iconoclast choice that changes anything about the Empire or its' peoples' conditions in any way whatsoever. Bonus points if it's not just the Rogue Trader feeling good and even handed about themselves, squared. On Janus as an Iconoclast you will Kill the Imperium-backed human governor and hand governance of the entire planet over to the Aeldari and the Human rebels that work with them. There are also multiple examples before that where you essentially free someone from the Imperium and allow them to live by different laws on your ship. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 23:25
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Except Tau. Get ‘em outta here.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:25
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Relevant Tangent posted:
Got real bad news for you about the Astronomicon, chief. Also, servitors and machine-spirits, if you want to go a little more mundane. At least the power Chaos-worshippers get from blood sacrifice is reasonably direct, efficient, and well-understood. The Imperium is so dysfunctional that if its agents kill you and everyone on your planet, there's a decent chance it was because an Administratum clerk made a spelling mistake three thousand years ago.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:28
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deep dish peat moss posted:On Janus as an Iconoclast you will Kill the Imperium-backed human governor and hand governance of the entire planet over to the Aeldari and the Human rebels that work with them. I'm not there yet, admittedly
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Dec 10, 2023 23:28
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Darth Walrus posted:The Imperium is so dysfunctional that if its agents kill you and everyone on your planet, there's a decent chance it was because an Administratum clerk made a spelling mistake three thousand years ago. [Dogmatic] Which just goes to show the importance of proper spelling, formatting, source citing and generally filling forms The Way Things Ought To Be Done ! It's like you're taking the entirely wrong conclusion from this educational anecdote. I don't get it. You think the Imperium can spare you and everyone on your planet ?! You're not made of Necropaste, trooper ! I mean, OK, yes, but
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Dec 10, 2023 23:32
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sebmojo posted:'fell on him like the wrath of the Emperor', to quote the extremely 40k inflected Gideon the Ninth I wasn’t really into Warhammer stuff at all until I read Gideon the Ninth, and now I’m waiting to have time to play this with some nice anticipation
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Dec 10, 2023 23:32
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I think a key thing about the Iconoclast debate is that Iconoclast is generally (at least as far as I've made it) not about making things better in the Imperium but rather going "Wait a sec the Imperium sucks, let's just do our own thing instead" and being more of a archetypical Good-Guy than the "Good-Guy" the imperium wants you to be. You're not going to make subjects' lives in the Imperium overall better but you are going to make sure subjects that you have (or take) authority over are no longer beholden to the Imperium's autocratic rules whenever you have a say in it. Which improves their situation by proxy, but doesn't make the Imperium itself any less fascist. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 23:36
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The imperium does in fact suck.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:37
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My favorite example of benevolentia in this game is that there's a colony upgrade that's basically "guys stop being dicks to the servators" You're still lobotomizing dudes without painkillers, pumping them full of steroids and crudely stapling power tools to them to be slaves for the rest of their short life, But there's no reason to be rude about it.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:39
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Relevant Tangent posted:
Chaos is egalitarian, there is an avenue for people of every socio-economic class, gender, and even species tp succeed and reach the top
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Dec 10, 2023 23:40
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Don't make me tap the *There are no good guys in 40K* sign again
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Dec 10, 2023 23:44
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Soyperium: Oooooooo the government that allows the priesthood to have an army because they cant have "men under arms" so they recruit a bunch of orphans to be "brides of the emperor" is good (gender roles, much?) Chados: Dont care who you are, if you kill millions of people who had it coming cause theyre imperial citizens you get to live forever as a cool daemon
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Dec 10, 2023 23:45
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I'm the third mysterious thing.
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Dec 10, 2023 23:47
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Eifert Posting posted:My favorite example of benevolentia in this game is that there's a colony upgrade that's basically "guys stop being dicks to the servators" Hey now, it’s not like that at all. Properly maintained a servitor can last for centuries!
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Dec 10, 2023 23:50
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deep dish peat moss posted:You're not going to make subjects' lives in the Imperium overall better but you are going to make sure subjects that you have (or take) authority over are no longer beholden to the Imperium's autocratic rules whenever you have a say in it. Which improves their situation by proxy, but doesn't make the Imperium itself any less fascist. I mean, does it ? Like, it doesn't matter if you give in to each and every union demand (which, so far I don't even know that they even have consequences yet). No matter how "benevolently" you resolve the strike, at the end of the day the strikers (who may or may not be/have been Chaos, I don't know - again, no follow-up yet) are still a clan of "deemed inferior/unspecialized" laborers that will be stacking crates in the lower deck for ever. Their kids too, and so on. They don't have a say in where the ship goes, they're probably not even allowed onland, like... it's "good feels" papering over atrocities. But it doesn't *matter*. Which is GOOD, I mean. That's the point I believe - Owlcat're not doing Disco Elysium, but they're still deconstructing what a good guy is (or feels like they are) within a wider context of ultrafascism. It's all ridiculous, which makes it funny. Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 23:55
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Iconoclast options exist in a wide range beyond solving the strike on your ship.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:03
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is there a way to rotate a grand strategists combat zones
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Dec 11, 2023 00:38
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deep dish peat moss posted:I think a key thing about the Iconoclast debate is that Iconoclast is generally (at least as far as I've made it) not about making things better in the Imperium but rather going "Wait a sec the Imperium sucks, let's just do our own thing instead" and being more of a archetypical Good-Guy than the "Good-Guy" the imperium wants you to be. Yeah, Iconoclast is specifically the "being the best person you can be in the situation" branch. Sometimes it means keeping the status quo because there's no other choice in the interim but moderating it to be less horrific, sometimes it means flipping over the entire script and saying gently caress the status quo, and sometimes it means just treating other people like human beings instead of disposable cogs. Frequently it involves making incredibly dubious leaps of trust in people who really don't deserve it, like extremely suspiciously Chaos-adjacent people who go "i'm not an evil cultist trust me bro", but part of being an iconoclast in this game is trusting and believing people in a setting where trust and believing in people simply doesn't exist in most cases. Even with all of your power and resources, you're still one noble in an incomprehensibly vast Imperium and all you can really do is try to improve the lives of people within your immediate reach. Hereticus in this game is basically straight up ultra-selfish pure evil. It is opposed to the Imperial dogma, but not out of any form of altruism or positivity.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:39
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So it's the Ciaphas Cain option, basically. If with less of the three-level parody.
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Dec 11, 2023 00:43
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at some point it's going to be revealed that one of the factions i was Iconoclastic with are actually genestealers and i can't wait
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Dec 11, 2023 00:44
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For the life of me, I can't find the bar in the shadow section of Footfall. Any advice?
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Dec 11, 2023 00:59
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Nelson Mandingo posted:For the life of me, I can't find the bar in the shadow section of Footfall. Any advice? You have to use your profit factor to build and open the bar.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:01
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Nelson Mandingo posted:For the life of me, I can't find the bar in the shadow section of Footfall. Any advice? The furthest point north on the map.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:02
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Darth Walrus posted:The Imperium is so dysfunctional that if its agents kill you and everyone on your planet, there's a decent chance it was because an Administratum clerk made a spelling mistake three thousand years ago. Relevant Tangent posted:at some point it's going to be revealed that one of the factions i was Iconoclastic with are actually genestealers and i can't wait If the iconoclast ending ended up being “while the crusade against your worlds was being mustered, your domain enjoyed centuries of peace and prosperity. Which promptly ended with the death of your entire line and most of your subjects once the Imperial fleet arrived,” I would not at all be surprised.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:04
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