|
Kith posted:the gameplay of hots ruled because you could win the entire campaign w/ nothing but FTFY Also I love how Jimmy takes his saved girl outside naked, even though the planet is supposed to be toxic nightmare.
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 09:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:38 |
|
|
everyone's just been leaving their visors open, it's fine ... mostly fine
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 11:25
|
|
|
Killing off Tychus was a dumb decision: the dude was like, the only character added to WoL that was worth keeping, except for the mechanic. He was funny! He was a logical guy for newcomers to relate to because he'd been on ice and missed the entirety of the first game! He had a neat conflict! It's pretty telling that they brought him back in non-canon form like, twice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 12:06
|
|
|
Tychus' mission never sat well with me. Mengsk had this one asset on ice that he could use against Raynor, and he spent it on... killing someone else that Tychus had no connection to. As an emotional beat it works fine, but the logic behind it only really works if Raynor has been trying to cure/save Kerrigan this entire time, which he hasn't even in this version of his story where he loves and misses her. Mengsk already had access to Moebius, who were the ones driving gathering the artifact. Why add the risk factor of Raynor, to the point of spending the one thing you could really use to destroy or control him? Still, there's an angle where it does work, and it ties in with the earlier talk about Mengsk not being very present despite the story nominally being about him. Mengsk doesn't actually see Raynor as a threat. He's a convenient scapegoat, someone he can point at to explain why restrictions are getting tighter and conscription is getting raised, someone he can paint as responsible any time something goes wrong within the Dominion. But Mengsk isn't actually worried about him. Raynor can't seriously challenge his rule. Even when Raynor hijacks a major broadcast to reveal all of Mengsk's lies, his control of the sector isn't threatened. So Mengsk thaws off Tychus to point Raynor against the enemy Mengsk actually is worried about. Send a non-Dominion force around collecting the artifacts and pissing off the Protoss, so that Raynor makes the extra enemies rather than him. This angle works better with the failing drunk version of Raynor than the passionate revolutionary, but it does work, I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 12:25
|
|
|
I didn't really see this as a huge twist, tbh, maybe because of just how well they foreshadowed it. Tychus had plenty of time to kill Jim if that was his mission. If he's not there to kill Jim, then he's possibly just a spy in general, except he apparently never gives the Dominion any worthwhile intel... and even participates in a covert op to publicly embarrass Mengsk! So he's got a much deeper mission. And he's seemingly very fixated on Kerrigan, and her relationship with Jim... Actually pretty good foreshadowing tbh.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 13:03
|
|
|
there are lines in Heart of the Swarm about Kerrigan's perspective as a zerg that support the idea she was being partly influenced. to be honest it's not a big deal to have Kerrigan simply be in two minds about being a zerg Starcraft and RTS games in general have form for not having characters interact much: the Confederate leaders are nameless and faceless, the Overmind and Tassadar show up only in Act 2... furthermore, the game isn't about Mengsk and he's not the one calling the shots - Narud is. Mengsk is of course happy to go along with it but the overarching plan is the Dark Voice's
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 13:34
|
|
|
Congrats on finishing WoL! It must have been a real behemoth to SSLP, and I'm looking forward to the rest of it. All In is a mission I'm of two minds on. It's such a huge difficulty spike from the rest of the campaign. On the one hand, this is very cool: It makes for a more cinematic experience that really pushes you to your limits. It drives home just what an insanely herculean feat you're trying to pull off, and it really does feel like you're trying to kick down the doors of the Heart of the Swarm.™ My main gripe is that it's difficult to the extent that it kind of warps the rest of the campaign around it. Especially on Brutal, a lot of the decisions you make when it comes to both research and unit upgrades comes down to "What will help me the most on All In?" because it's a huge pain to play with a sub-optimal approach. So it feels like there's less room for experimentation or focusing on the units you think are cool. Although I guess you can always just turn down the difficulty specifically for All In. The good news is that they did learn from that, as we'll see with the upgrade systems in HotS and LotV.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 15:18
|
|
|
I figured that Mengsk is just one of the only major characters in SC who has any awareness of dramatic conventions. He knew that if anyone could somehow beat the million to one odds of making a successful attack on the heart of the Zerg swarm, it was Raynor… so why not throw in some extra insurance in the form of Tychus to hedge his bets with the plan to make sure Kerrigan died?
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 15:58
|
|
|
aniviron posted:I agree with you that this is the substance of the plot, but I don't think it's what the writer wants to think it's about. The title is Wings of Liberty after all, not This One Weird Trick to Save Your Ex. I think they probably had a very confused writing process with a lot of different ideas mixed up in it. The rebellion angle was definitely a part, but even the text of the game admits it's not what the game is about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:Tychus' mission never sat well with me. Mengsk had this one asset on ice that he could use against Raynor, and he spent it on... killing someone else that Tychus had no connection to. As an emotional beat it works fine, but the logic behind it only really works if Raynor has been trying to cure/save Kerrigan this entire time, which he hasn't even in this version of his story where he loves and misses her. Mengsk already had access to Moebius, who were the ones driving gathering the artifact. Why add the risk factor of Raynor, to the point of spending the one thing you could really use to destroy or control him? I always figured there were more agents out there like Tychus, but we never saw them. Mengsk throws people out on various missions like this because sending a thousand coerced agents out is still cheaper by far than even one more capital ship, so he's got a bunch of useful idiots and assholes doing their thing. Tychus gets sent to Raynor because it's entertainingly personal, and also Jimmy seems to get caught up in dumb bullshit plenty. Or shoves himself into it. Why not?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 18:42
|
|
|
BisbyWorl posted:Also Mengsk knows Tychus failed, knows exactly where Kerrigan and Jim are right now, and still has half of the fleet on hand. But I'm sure that won't immediately bite Jim in the rear end. It absolutely does, according to one of the books.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
JackSplater posted:It absolutely does, according to one of the books. In fact a lot of the narrative problematics we made evident in this thread would be reduced if we wrer to consider the side material like novels, comics and so. But HOW MANY bought such material? Not a lot, I'd say...
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:01
|
|
|
Hell, at least it’s not as bad as putting literally all of the setup for a WoW expansion in one book. Somehow, Garrosh escaped.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 20:09
|
|
|
Good job on finishing this leg of the LP! I'll be honest and say that Heart of the Swarm is probably my favorite part of Starcraft 2. Yes, the plot is incredibly silly, but the gameplay is a lot of fun and definitely fits the power fantasy. Without going into too much detail, Kerrigan is the final form of the hero unit progression system introduced by Warcraft 3, and it is glorious in motion. Bloody Pom fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Dec 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
gohuskies posted:I think they probably had a very confused writing process with a lot of different ideas mixed up in it. The rebellion angle was definitely a part, but even the text of the game admits it's not what the game is about. Part of the narrative's flaw is that Raynor isn't far enough down the hole, I think. He's too noble and too committed to helping people when he should be more focused on getting revenge on Mengsk, as implied by the first cutscene. Maybe the Spectre vs Ghost plotline alongside Tychus' artifact hunt should have been the first leg of the story. Cast Jim as in a much darker and more morally ambiguous place, then have the Zerg Invasion force him back out to the fringes, where helping people and some distance from what he was doing starts to swing him back to the side of the angels. Then we get Zeratul's intel about the coming apocalypse and Kerrigan that forces him to give up his vendetta because saving lives, and the universe, like he did before Fenix died, is what really matters to him. A branching finale where you have to choose between saving Kerrigan and exposing Mengsk would have REALLY paid off that conflict. You don't even need to hugely change Heart of the Swarm for that, I don't think. It just leaves Kerrigan is a different starting place and with a different model. I think you could make it work.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2023 22:28
|
|
|
GodFish posted:Wow, I've beaten WoL like 4 times and never seen that dialog at all. I am 99% sure it only shows in Brutal. Also excellent part 1 to the LP, I really enjoyed it. To elaborate a bit more on my position as someone who didn't play SC1 for this bit. I essentially went through the campaign believing, especially post the overmind reveal that being zerged *did* something to your mind that meant you didn't see things in the same way as a normal human. That whatever the gently caress the hybrids or the Xel'naga or whatever were doing meant that the zerg simply didn't have free will, or whatever their free will was, was compromised by some sort of overriding objective. So Kerrigan is essentially a victim of that as well. That being said, Kerrigan obviously displays intelligence and a conception of self, so there's an extent to which whoever she was previously must still exist and be driving, if not the ultimate objective, then the execution of that objective. So hearing this line essentially confirmed everything I'd thought and it worked. It would loving suck to go through the entire WoL campaign and get told at the end of it, "Actually Kerrigan was just a complete poo poo the entire time and everything you did was pointless because she regrets nothing." Anyway Heart of the Swarm is coming up, I'm sure the geniuses at Blizzard will write an excellent story about someone coming to terms with what they did when they weren't in their right mind and spend a really good amount of story time examining how culpable Kerrigan is in those circumstances. They could even explore the concept of what control of the Zerg even looks like. Whether one can even claim to be Queen of the swarm to begin with. It'll be great! Right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 00:48
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:It would loving suck to go through the entire WoL campaign and get told at the end of it, "Actually Kerrigan was just a complete poo poo the entire time and everything you did was pointless because she regrets nothing." what are you talking about, that would absolutely rule
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 01:39
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:what are you talking about, that would absolutely rule We'll talk about the start of Heart of the Swarm when it happens, but the situation I hoped for was that Raynor is obsessed and in love with Kerrigan, has been thinking about her for years, goes on this arduous quest to turn her human again at great cost, the whole WoL thing. Then when she's human and he goes to profess his love to her, she doesn't get it at all. "Uhhhhh... you mean you've been in love with me all this time, since way back then? Jim, we hooked up like once or twice. I mean, you're a nice guy, don't take this the wrong way, but it was just a fling." The love is completely one-sided, he's nostalgic for and trying to recreate a relationship that never actually existed, etc. That would be a great start to Heart of the Swarm.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 01:56
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:To elaborate a bit more on my position as someone who didn't play SC1 for this bit. (...) So hearing this line essentially confirmed everything I'd thought and it worked. The ones where the reviewer led off with something like "I never played SC1" or "it's been a long time since I thought about Starcraft..." seemed to mostly enjoy the storyline, with only some minor nitpicks. The ones where the reviewer started with something like "I grew up loving Brood War and have eagerly waited to see where things went" had a lot more issues with the storyline.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 02:17
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:what are you talking about, that would absolutely rule I mean okay, look, if the writing was completely incredible and we had another full campaign with Jim Raynor reckoning with this decision that he made to save someone who was utterly reprehensible, then yeah, I could see it working. But if we assume the tone of what Wings of Liberty's writing wanted, which is essentially a Western, then that decision would be at massive odds with basically the entire tone of the game and would suck.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 02:20
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:I mean okay, look, if the writing was completely incredible and we had another full campaign with Jim Raynor reckoning with this decision that he made to save someone who was utterly reprehensible, then yeah, I could see it working. If the WoL ending cutscene ended with human Kerrigan saying "you rear end in a top hat, I wanted to stay queen of the Zerg! Screw you!" then I agree, that would be at odds with the tone of WoL and not be a good decision. I think they ended it reasonably well for the story that they told. But Heart of the Swarm is a new campaign that focuses on the Zerg. The opening of Heart could take Kerrigan's feelings about who she is now, what she's done, and what she wants next in a lot of different directions from here and still potentially work, IMO.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 02:28
|
|
|
When you take into account Kerrigan's early life (kidnapped, family murdered, brain scrambled like all Ghosts), years spent as a state-owned killer, her subsequent betrayal by Mengsk, and then getting her suppressed childhood memories unlocked after getting Zerged... is it any wonder that she'd be firmly on the side of 'actually gently caress humanity' after her free will was restored? That kind of boiling hatred isn't just going to go away because one smooth-talking colonial marshal was nice to you for a few months. And it doesn't seem like the Zerg are big on therapy. Bloody Pom fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Dec 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 02:43
|
|
|
Bloody Pom posted:When you take into account Kerrigan's early life (kidnapped, family murdered, brain scrambled like all Ghosts), years spent as a state-owned killer, her subsequent betrayal by Mengsk, and then getting her suppressed childhood memories unlocked after getting Zerged... is it any wonder that she'd be firmly on the side of 'actually gently caress humanity' after her free will was restored? It seems to me like the biggest dividing line between SC1/BW and WOL is the absence of context surrounding Kerrigan's character. In WoL as a vacuum, we only know Kerrigan as Jim's Photo/Memories and the monster in front of us. The game never digs into the society that raised her, the ideals she fought for, the scientific experimentation she was subjected to. Even when they show her betrayal I don't know if someone who didn't play the previous games would really get what it meant for her to take that mission from Mengsk over her own objections AND Jim's warnings and then be left to die. You don't even need to look at the expanded universe materials, all that is in the Terran and Zerg campaigns. When Kerrigan revels in her villainy in Brood War, it felt good for a lot of people because they saw the whole chain that got her there and recognized that she was, if nothing else, FREE. There is an element of empowerment there, the fantasy of striking back at all the evils, personal and systemic, that created everything you don't like about yourself and the world. It also helps that along the way she IS still recognizably human, for all the good and ill that comes with that. She's not some Zerg zombie that's only there to consume and destroy for its own sake, she has recognizable motives, goals and feelings about those things. If you don't have that picture, and you only see Kerrigan in WoL as a good person who didn't deserve to become the monster who's killing billions, then yeah, the ending would certainly work for you. You would be happy that Jim saved her instead of taking the easy road of destroying her.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 04:10
|
|
|
I can't really get into it yet for spoiler reasons, but when you're armed with the context of SC1/BW, her actions at the start of HotS also make a lot more sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 04:22
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:I mean okay, look, if the writing was completely incredible and we had another full campaign with Jim Raynor reckoning with this decision that he made to save someone who was utterly reprehensible, then yeah, I could see it working. Oh, I'm not saying they would do it well, just that I'd take it over a corruption/mind control plot anytime. It's not particularly about Kerrigan being an established character; I wouldn't like it any more if she were an SC2 original. I take your point about the tone, but in my book, more Westerns should end with the douchey cowboy embarassing himself for putting a woman on a pedestal and assuming he knew what she wanted.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 04:36
|
|
|
Bloody Pom posted:That kind of boiling hatred isn't just going to go away because one smooth-talking colonial marshal was nice to you for a few months. And it doesn't seem like the Zerg are big on therapy. Replacing your doubts, fears, traumas and insecurities with brain-tentacles, explody-juice, and groove is a kind of therapy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 04:58
|
|
|
TURN IT UP!
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 05:21
|
|
|
I get the feeling that, much like the Borg, since all Zerg are under the same Hive mind infrastructure, it's probably amazing group therapy. Maybe the zerglings can't relate to you living for over 30 years, but I'll bet ultralisks have a lot to say. They're so big that they struggle with fine motor control. The domination is just them working out their stress
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 05:26
|
|
|
I think where some people's heads are in relation to Kerrigan is that basically, she's like how Gary Oldman's character describes Robocop's decision making in fights in this scene from the remake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-SLhDmaTqI&t=207s She may think she's in control, but she's really not.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 05:53
|
|
|
bladededge posted:Replacing your doubts, fears, traumas and insecurities with brain-tentacles, explody-juice, and groove is a kind of therapy. I know this is an SC2 LP but if you're posting that I can't not put this one out there, especially in the middle of December: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6fhaJebvwE
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 06:45
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:I am 99% sure it only shows in Brutal. Nah, I replayed All In on Hard today, and the dialogue played just fine. Fought off Kerrigan with the usual huge mass of Mutalisks in the last minute or so, and the lines played right afterwards.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 07:18
|
|
|
Aces High posted:I get the feeling that, much like the Borg, since all Zerg are under the same Hive mind infrastructure, it's probably amazing group therapy. Maybe the zerglings can't relate to you living for over 30 years, but I'll bet ultralisks have a lot to say. They're so big that they struggle with fine motor control. The Zergian Instrumentality Project
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 13:09
|
|
GunnerJ posted:The Zergian Instrumentality Project I swear to gently caress, if this ends with a giant naked Kerrigan turning everyone to goo…
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 14:31
|
|
|
Regalingualius posted:I swear to gently caress, if this ends with a giant naked Kerrigan turning everyone to goo… Spoiler tag your spoilers, friend. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 14:50
|
|
|
I'm now imagining the "I'm so hosed up scene" with Iszha and Abathur, and I don't want to 
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 15:55
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:Human Kerrigan reaching out to Jimmy from within the Queen of Blades is such a momentously stupid plot point for so many reasons that I refuse to believe it happened. Obviously that dialogue box is just Raynor having some kind of delirious episode. Good news! Because of a bug, it didn't! And it also didn't happen in my game because I triggered the same conditions to avoid hearing it. La la la Tenebrais posted:It woulda been fun if all the zerg got turned into the original alien wildlife they were based on. A pointless amount of modelling effort, but fun. More like the models for those weren't done yet. CommissarMega posted:I'm now imagining the "I'm so hosed up scene" with Iszha and Abathur, and I don't want to Iszha is just relentlessly positive about the whole thing. Abathur is just all "I can fix her" but in the most horrifying way possible.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2023 16:09
|
|
|
Bonus: Terran Unit Quotes Well, poo poo, if Killtrane's doing this then I better get off my rear end and do one on my end.  SCV: https://youtu.be/VY7h8dpia7A Produced:
Marine: https://youtu.be/ATUJSjNJEj4 Produced:
Marauder: https://youtu.be/n3rKPYvPXSU Produced:
Medic: https://youtu.be/cY_FgTLnyuc Produced:
Reaper: https://youtu.be/RI2o7I6E9YM Produced:
Firebat: https://youtu.be/dYfXNvqC024 Produced:
Ghost: https://youtu.be/-0rqtc0Bfv0 The Ghost is very, very obviously voiced by Liam O'Brien. I'm honestly surprised they didn't try to slip in an Illidan reference somewhere. Produced:
Specter: https://youtu.be/tKEe0jPdHi8 Produced:
Vulture: https://youtu.be/mAeUahLElfg One of the biggest changes between games. The guy sounds Absolutely Done with everything now. Produced:
Hellion: https://youtu.be/aiP3eq1CstU Produced:
Goliath: https://youtu.be/X_Uh78j-S1M The new Goliath just... loses something from the original. If that makes sense. Produced:
Diamondback: https://youtu.be/bmhi9iX4uV8 Produced:
Siege Tank: https://youtu.be/2hXXfXP94vQ Produced:
Thor: https://youtu.be/ISzAPpUzLuA Arnold Schwarzenegger in spaaaaaaaaaaaace. Produced:
Predator: https://youtu.be/tWFM9tungeE All:
Viking: https://youtu.be/t55nKXBAMPo Produced:
Medivac: https://youtu.be/avN7vICX208 Produced:
Banshee: https://youtu.be/vK0DUBMuxRY Produced:
Wraith: https://youtu.be/H00V486-H4Q Produced:
Science Vessel: https://youtu.be/fsc8VcqPqDc No longer a Mr. Burns impression 2/10 see me after class. Produced:
Raven: https://youtu.be/ToXE9yNPVd8 Has a more mechanical voice with odd inflections. Produced:
Hercules: https://youtu.be/-Z1Y5CPtafA Produced:
Battlecruiser: https://youtu.be/qNy6lWSYne0 Produced:
Selected:
Jim Raynor: https://youtu.be/ZljYst0sesk Produced: (Hero units have production lines, again as an editor thing)
Tychus Findlay (Marine): https://youtu.be/s3rxYfglcpw Produced:
Tychus Findlay (Odin): https://youtu.be/tvK-fyh-bAE Produced:
Rory Swann: https://youtu.be/Pp3SSM7Tw-I Produced:
Egon Stetmann: https://youtu.be/WoKGGHmETvE Produced:
Selected:
Gabriel Tosh: https://youtu.be/N4HRiEPshMc Produced:
November Terra: https://youtu.be/t9CZKoq_XOA Produced:
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2023 05:06
|
|
|
Ah, so THIS is where the "in the rear with the gear" line was.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2023 05:30
|
|
|
Looking forward to the Zerg unit quote writeup after HotS, in that case.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2023 09:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:38 |
|
|
RIP Tychus, too cool for this game Do Marine suits have a ventilation system or something? I have no idea how Tychus can see if his helmet is filled with cigar smoke
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2023 09:20
|
|
