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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXgnqGTOXTE Jerusalem posted:Yet another reason that I cling with increasingly suspicious panic to my beloved physical media. The recent stuff like Sony just straight up deleting shows people have paid access to is such a big part of why piracy will always be about. Add that to factors like Doctor Who not airing on the public ABC channel here in Australia anymore, with it only being available via D+ as they keep raising the price more and more, and.. welll.. yeah 
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Dec 11, 2023 13:37
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Cyberwoman was pretty memorable 
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Dec 11, 2023 13:39
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Rusty's gonna convert the whole show into a musical by the end of the season.
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Dec 11, 2023 13:41
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keep punching joe posted:Cyberwoman was pretty memorable Cyberwoman owns.  "Do you remember... that magical evening where it was just the two of us in a tent... and dogpiss"
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Dec 11, 2023 13:42
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Infinitum posted:Add that to factors like Doctor Who not airing on the public ABC channel here in Australia anymore, with it only being available via D+ as they keep raising the price more and more, and.. welll.. yeah I was actually working for a political party at the time this news came about, and shared it around as 'the weirdest thing that might be politically relevant'. Seriously, any party that stands up for 'Doctor Who on Sunday nights on the ABC' surely wins at least a few votes, that's a more Australian institution than most TV actually made in Australia.
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Dec 11, 2023 13:42
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The ABC should get special first rights to BBC stuff damnit it's tradition   
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Dec 11, 2023 13:44
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jassa posted:I'll admit most of my good memories of Chibnall's run were for Jodie's first couple of seasons... I can't quite articulate it but the show just felt more grounded, less wacky for the sake of wacky. The cinematography and new composer felt really refreshing, and went a long way toward that. Jodie too, for that matter. The plots could still be nonsensical, but I legitimately enjoyed the possibilities created by the Timeless Child stuff. Huge swaths of the Doctor's past she didn't know about? The revelation she wasn't actually Gallifreyan? Her running into unknown previous versions of herself? Heck yes, give me more of that! I think he took some of it in the wrong directions, but at least he was trying to take the Doctor's lore in some interesting new directions. Honestly, I don't think his miss-to-hit ratio is all that different to any other post-2005 showrunner (even including Flux). I would say most of my big criticisms of Chibnall are ultimately about him as a producer and hype man for the show, rather than as a writer. I think he's a so-so writer but there were good ideas in his stuff. I'm not sure I ultimately want Doctor Who to be "grounded", but I enjoyed a lot of his first season: and I conceptually enjoyed a lot of the Timeless Child stuff. I felt he wasn't good at emotionally selling the stuff he was doing (a RTD speciality) nor mostly making the intricate mysteries interesting in their unweaving (something Moffat did well). But I think overall the issue was that he did things like let the Christmas slot go, produce really dire publicity for the show, and generally did not seem able to put the kind of energy into it that we're now seeing. Part of that is him struggling against the BBC! But part of it is genuinely his ability to stick the landing and get truly memorable stuff out of his crew and actors. I think it was a mistake to do a near-total change of production staff because it felt like a degree of institutional memory of how to make Doctor Who on time on budget well had gone. Moffat struggled with this too - but Chibnall's Who felt like a decline in nearly all ways. Which was gutting because I was with it for a long time and really wanted it to succeed.
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Dec 11, 2023 13:46
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lines posted:But I think overall the issue was that he did things like let the Christmas slot go, produce really dire publicity for the show, and generally did not seem able to put the kind of energy into it that we're now seeing. Part of that is him struggling against the BBC! But part of it is genuinely his ability to stick the landing and get truly memorable stuff out of his crew and actors. I think it was a mistake to do a near-total change of production staff because it felt like a degree of institutional memory of how to make Doctor Who on time on budget well had gone. Moffat struggled with this too - but Chibnall's Who felt like a decline in nearly all ways. Which was gutting because I was with it for a long time and really wanted it to succeed. I think a big part of all this was when he alienated the staff over at The Mill, the SFX house that had handled all the digital work on the show since its revival. (Though I can't remember why, I'd have to look it up.) They're back now that RTD is back. ...or maybe they departed under Moffat, but I swear it was Chibnall.
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Dec 11, 2023 13:51
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RTD is a man who knows what he wants in his television shows and what he wants is endless musical numbers.
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Dec 11, 2023 13:52
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Infinitum posted:I'm far and away more a fan of modern nuWho than I am of the OG serials, but I always remember seeing an episode of Paradise Towers with the creepy loving robot in the pool and it scaring the absolute poo poo out of me Oh hey Daily Motion to the rescue. Behold the sequence that scared the poo poo out of me as a kid. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xoq5p?start=204 I would have been around 4-5 at the time and learning to swim, so the thought of MURDERBOT IN POOL probably a big factor MikeJF posted:The ABC should get special first rights to BBC stuff damnit it's tradition What good is a King if we don't even get Doctor Who out of it?
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Dec 11, 2023 13:53
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One of the reasons I was leery of Chibnall taking over was because his writing up to that point under RTD and Moffat had been him doing very "lite" or "value-brand" versions of the type of stories they were writing, but missing the spark that made those work. RTD, as has been discussed ad nauseum in prior threads, has a tendency to write big over-the-top grandiose stuff that doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny but it doesn't matter because he usually hits incredible emotional beats that just make everything work... except when he doesn't! Moffat could put together intricate puzzle-boxes that rewarded paying attention and usually tied off loose ends or used those left over to tell additional stories when you pulled on the strands, though as he wrote more he got more self indulgent. Chibnall would try to ape both of those types of stories, more often RTD than Moffat, but the most successful of them usually worked out to be "fine" at best, kind of poo poo at worst, and normally fairly bland/unmemorable. The shining light in terms of his writing was that he'd written Broadchurch for ITV and the first season of that was incredible, but I think the benefit of hindsight showed that this was a "Season 5" situation like Moffat had with Doctor Who, where Chibnall had been working over season 1 of Broadchurch in his mind for years if not decades and it represented what may have been the peak of his skills for writing an entire season. What Chibnall did have going for him, I felt, was that his shows are cast VERY well, which might be down to having a good casting director but I think is more likely a result of the people he works with genuinely liking him and enjoying working with him. As also previously mentioned, he had a lot of very positive ideas about representation and engaging with social issues in the show, and in the hands of a stronger writer I think the clear potential of the show was there for everybody to see... we just unfortunately weren't getting it. I think those aspirational ideas were also at odds with what I do feel (perhaps unfairly) is one of the clearly distinct writing elements he does bring to Doctor Who in particular, which was an interest in "cosmic powered beings". It's kinda ironic given RTD's own clever use of characters like The Toymaker, the Not Things from Wild Blue Yonder, and his penchant for off-the-cuff references to cosmic horrors like The Could-Have-Been King or The Nightmare Child, but Chibnall seemed to really like the idea of beings from outside of our universe, Eternals, Time as a concept personified etc but they just felt kind of jammed in with everything else going on. I don't envy the job he had taking over the show after RTD revived it and Moffat built it out into an even bigger thing internationally, and it wasn't like there was really anybody else waiting in the wings who seemed a more likely replacement. Mark Gatiss maybe, but his writing for Who has its own issues, plus I think seeing the stress it put Moffat under scared him off the idea if it was ever even really seriously considered. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 14:00
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think a big part of all this was when he alienated the staff over at The Mill, the SFX house that had handled all the digital work on the show since its revival. (Though I can't remember why, I'd have to look it up.) They're back now that RTD is back. They transitioned from The Mill to Milk VFX during Moffat but that was a friendly transition, the Mill closed their TV division in 2013 and a bunch of the Mill team founded Milk, it was the same people working on the show under both. Then Who went to DNeg with Chibnall. (Also for all that those were just the main external ones but there was a lot of in-house and also various things would get shopped around to other places when needed, I think?) I will say I liked a lot of the Chibnall-era VFX design better, especially the weird poo poo. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 14:00
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think a big part of all this was when he alienated the staff over at The Mill, the SFX house that had handled all the digital work on the show since its revival. (Though I can't remember why, I'd have to look it up.) They're back now that RTD is back. I've found stuff that suggests they stopped in 2013, so quite some time ago, in part because the BBC didn't commission a series that year. I do think somewhat the rot set in around that Season 7a/7b mark - Who is just a show that if it's not running every year loses momentum somewhat. To a degree Chibnall just inherited a train that was already slowing down but didn't seem to know how to get it moving again.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:02
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Jerusalem posted:Chibnall seemed to really like the idea of beings from outside of our universe, Eternals, Time as a concept personified etc but they just felt kind of jammed in with everything else going on. That's just another case of him cribbing though; it's Neil Gaiman by way of the NAs.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:04
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MikeJF posted:The ABC should get special first rights to BBC stuff damnit it's tradition Infinitum posted:What good is a King if we don't even get Doctor Who out of it? I genuinely believe you could at least get a rogue senate seat running on a platform of Australian media independence and local ownership with the argument of this, and 'The Simpsons should be on Channel Ten'. I don't know how you'd enact that platform, but I do think you could get into office with it.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:13
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Obviously this is superb in and of itself, but I'm also quite interested in how much this seems to be continuing the "myths becoming true" theme from The Giggle.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:16
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Holy poo poo I can't believe how great this is 
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Dec 11, 2023 14:30
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lines posted:Obviously this is superb in and of itself, but I'm also quite interested in how much this seems to be continuing the "myths becoming true" theme from The Giggle. As has been speculated, it seems to fit with the logo change. We might be getting something like a repeat of Sly's era - high concept weirdness and (hopefully) sharp criticism of the tories
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Dec 11, 2023 14:32
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Not enough love for The Vlinx which made the Doctor do like a headfake and then the mystery of such a character is never followed up again.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:32
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Barry Foster posted:As has been speculated, it seems to fit with the logo change. We might be getting something like a repeat of Sly's era - high concept weirdness and (hopefully) sharp criticism of the tories Is it finally time to put the Kandyman back on our screens? Much to consider!
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Dec 11, 2023 14:35
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"Listen...I can hear the sound of empires toppling."
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Dec 11, 2023 14:39
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The logo is in fact from the 70s, not the 80s. I hang my head in shame
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Dec 11, 2023 14:41
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lines posted:Is it finally time to put the Kandyman back on our screens? Much to consider! Maybe we'll finally get to see: - The Skaro Degradations - The Horde of Travesties - The Nightmare Child - The Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres
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Dec 11, 2023 14:41
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Just watching a recent interview with Tom Baker and he refers to his character continually as Doctor Who, and the other actors as The Other Doctor Whos
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Dec 11, 2023 14:41
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Open Source Idiom posted:That's just another case of him cribbing though; it's Neil Gaiman by way of the NAs. And he was rubbish at it. His depiction of anything like that was pedestrian and tepid. There's more imagination in the throw away reference's that RTD likes to include than there is in anything Chibnall wrote.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:44
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Silly old Tom It's actually 'Doctors Who'
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Dec 11, 2023 14:45
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Infinitum posted:- The Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres They never explicitly said he was, and of course RTD can do whatever the gently caress he wants, but there's a War Doctor story by Big Finish that I think did a much better job than I thought it would about the Doctor encountering what you can speculate was the Could-Have-Been King. It played up the horror of what an existence of simultaneous lived potential could be, with characters talking about how they had distinct memories and emotional connections to families they never had, spouses they never married, children that never existed, and that they simultaneously grieved for their loss while also being fully aware that they never were. Imagine never having a child but distinctly remembering having a child, knowing they don't exist and never did but absolutely 100% remembering and FEELING that connection that you never had. Plus, not only did you have that child that you never did, but they died in childbirth/lived, they had happy childhoods/miserable childhoods, they grew up to great success/they died horribly and pointlessly, they're estranged from you/remain close and loving... but they also never existed, you never knew them, they never were. Horrifying.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:46
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There was a great example of RTD being able to be really evocative with just a few words in the full script for Wild Blue Yonder that I don't think made it to the screen: https://www.instagram.com/p/C0ZNmSP...F3-8889A2069610
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Dec 11, 2023 14:49
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That's basically The Nearness of You from Astro City by Kurt Busiek.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:49
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keep punching joe posted:Just watching a recent interview with Tom Baker and he refers to his character continually as Doctor Who, and the other actors as The Other Doctor Whos I really wish that we'd had him and Pertwee on the show together at least once. Sadly I'm not sure that the 4:3 aspect ratio would have been able to fit all the ego on screen at the same time.
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Dec 11, 2023 14:54
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Adder Moray posted:If it were me writing: he dies at some point in the future and regenerates into 15. Because of the Toymaker's presence kinda being unbound by the laws of the universe, he kills 14 here and starts a regeneration that isn't supposed to be happening. So the two regenerations get shunted together and a 15 with 14's future experiences pops out of 14 in 2023. 15 continues onwards while 14 goes on to live whatever life he does until he dies at some point in the future and regenerates into 15. Because of the Toymaker's presence kinda being unbound by the laws of the universe, he kills 14 here and starts a regeneration that isn't supposed to be happening. So the two regenerations get shunted together and a 15 with 14's future experiences pops out of 14 in 2023. 15 continues onwards while 14 goes on to live whatever life he does until he dies at some point in the future and regenerates into 15. Because of the Toymaker's presence kinda being unbound by the laws of the... We all know that they’ll keep whatever ultimately happens to Tenant vague so that they can pull him out for future anniversary specials, no matter how old he physically looks. RTD is already retconning bi-regeneration for the reason why past Doctors have shown up looking way older than they were when they regenerated. Whatever timey-whimey theories there are for Tennant’s essence to go back into Gatwa, the realities of shooting a live action show with real people will give way to the simplicity of branching lives.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:05
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Anyone have any tips for getting the spice girls out of your head?
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Dec 11, 2023 15:06
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Detective No. 27 posted:We all know that they’ll keep whatever ultimately happens to Tenant vague so that they can pull him out for future anniversary specials, no matter how old he physically looks. RTD is already retconning bi-regeneration for the reason why past Doctors have shown up looking way older than they were when they regenerated. RTD extemporising in behind the scenes interviews doesn't mean he's retconning bi-generation into stuff we've already seen. They've either not bothered explaining or come up with adhoc justifications for actors getting older in the past, RTD having a fun idea for this regeneration does not make it compulsory. MikeJF posted:Anyone have any tips for getting the spice girls out of your head? Slam it to the left.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:10
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PriorMarcus posted:And he was rubbish at it. His depiction of anything like that was pedestrian and tepid. There's more imagination in the throw away reference's that RTD likes to include than there is in anything Chibnall wrote. But there was a frog! On a chair! Jerusalem posted:They never explicitly said he was, and of course RTD can do whatever the gently caress he wants, but there's a War Doctor story by Big Finish that I think did a much better job than I thought it would about the Doctor encountering what you can speculate was the Could-Have-Been King. It played up the horror of what an existence of simultaneous lived potential could be, with characters talking about how they had distinct memories and emotional connections to families they never had, spouses they never married, children that never existed, and that they simultaneously grieved for their loss while also being fully aware that they never were. Imagine never having a child but distinctly remembering having a child, knowing they don't exist and never did but absolutely 100% remembering and FEELING that connection that you never had. Plus, not only did you have that child that you never did, but they died in childbirth/lived, they had happy childhoods/miserable childhoods, they grew up to great success/they died horribly and pointlessly, they're estranged from you/remain close and loving... but they also never existed, you never knew them, they never were. Horrifying. Sounds a bit, not a lot, but a bit like Darkseid's Omega Sanction. He condemns you to live out an eternity of false lives, each more painful and humiliating than the last.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:13
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Matinee posted:When I think of Chibnall being a "bad writer" for Doctor Who, it's because I find him an unmemorable writer. He doesn't have the setup-reminder-payoff structure or sitcom banter dialogue that Moffat has, or the highly legible heart on sleeve emotions and keenly observed characters that RTD is good at, his words just kind of slide off the brain. I think a lot of people ITT have said something along the lines of "I know I've seen [Chibnall episode], but I couldn't tell you anything that happened in it". lines posted:I would say most of my big criticisms of Chibnall are ultimately about him as a producer and hype man for the show, rather than as a writer. I think he's a so-so writer but there were good ideas in his stuff. I'm not sure I ultimately want Doctor Who to be "grounded", but I enjoyed a lot of his first season: and I conceptually enjoyed a lot of the Timeless Child stuff. I felt he wasn't good at emotionally selling the stuff he was doing (a RTD speciality) nor mostly making the intricate mysteries interesting in their unweaving (something Moffat did well). Jerusalem posted:One of the reasons I was leery of Chibnall taking over was because his writing up to that point under RTD and Moffat had been him doing very "lite" or "value-brand" versions of the type of stories they were writing, but missing the spark that made those work. RTD, as has been discussed ad nauseum in prior threads, has a tendency to write big over-the-top grandiose stuff that doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny but it doesn't matter because he usually hits incredible emotional beats that just make everything work... except when he doesn't! Moffat could put together intricate puzzle-boxes that rewarded paying attention and usually tied off loose ends or used those left over to tell additional stories when you pulled on the strands, though as he wrote more he got more self indulgent. Thank you all, I really appreciate the genuine and detailed responses. I can certainly agree Chibnall was a middling writer, that seems like fairer criticism than what I've heard from others. I'd still rather have more of that than the low-lows which come with RTD scripts. As much as I dislike him, it's undeniable RTD is good at breathing new life back into the show though. MikeJF posted:I will say I liked a lot of the Chibnall-era VFX design better, especially the weird poo poo. Big same. jassa fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 15:18
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PriorMarcus posted:And he was rubbish at it. His depiction of anything like that was pedestrian and tepid. There's more imagination in the throw away reference's that RTD likes to include than there is in anything Chibnall wrote. It's because Rusty, for all his reputation and excesses, genuinely knows when to just leave well enough alone. When you toss out an evocative phrase as a gesture to an infinite universe we aren't yet equipped to comprehend in its entirety, you don't have to follow up; just leave it to the viewer's imagination. And you definitely don't put it on screen because the instant you slap a price-tag limit on how you're going to depict it, it won't live up to anyone's imagination. Big Finish and novelizations get more leeway because the lack of visuals can work in their favor if you're clever enough, but even then there are things best left hinted. The instant you depict a universe as a frog you've outed yourself as a Homestuck and then you're hosed, sonny Jim.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:24
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MikeJF posted:Anyone have any tips for getting the spice girls out of your head? Now I can't see an image of NPH's Toymaker without hearing that song. Seriously though, I quite enjoyed the episode. Also, 15 running around without his pants the whole time and no one saying anything was funny to me.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:30
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MikeJF posted:I will say I liked a lot of the Chibnall-era VFX design better, especially the weird poo poo. The nice thing I can say about the Chibnall era is the show looked great. Both in terms of how everything was designed and how it was shot. Chibnall probably wouldn't have made the catch scene in The Giggle look so boring. But then Chibnall also avoided musical numbers until the very end of his run, so you can see his failings there.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:30
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That Goblin song is absolute shite, it’s perfect. Also I’m pretty sure Baldrick ought to receive a credit for some of those lyrics.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:48
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jassa posted:I'd still rather have more of that than the low-lows which come with RTD scripts. At this point it all comes down to taste, because I just can’t agree with this at all. There’s a lot of variability in the quality of RTD’s original run, but during my current rewatch I’ve realize I’d much rather watch RTD’s “bad” episodes than any of the other showrunners’ bad episodes, and with Chibnall’s run I don’t have much desire to even rewatch the episodes I enjoyed.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:55
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