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Chillgamesh posted:It's just weird to me because the camera pans all the way around the vehicle and when it's looking in through the rear hatch you can see daylight shining through the hatch in the front but nowhere else. The front of the tank looks kind of hosed up, though, maybe that's where the impact happened? the puncture from a shaped charge is only going be like fist sized. its a jet of super heated metal that is very tightly focused. The burning damage inside is from something else cooking after.
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Dec 12, 2023 01:45
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It's wild to think that anyone could survive being exposed to that. Goddamn you couldn't get me into an APC in an environment like Gaza.
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Dec 12, 2023 01:47
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Chillgamesh posted:It's wild to think that anyone could survive being exposed to that. Goddamn you couldn't get me into an APC in an environment like Gaza. Survival rates are pretty high compared to what you'd expect, but the survivors don't all come out healthy.
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Dec 12, 2023 01:49
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Chillgamesh posted:What kind of hit does this? The chassis of the vehicle seems mostly intact but the thing is thoroughly scorched inside and out. I'd guess "a disabling hit, couldn't be recovered so the order was given to destroy it and bail"
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Dec 12, 2023 01:51
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V. Illych L. posted:i personally don't want to see people get blown up, corpses etc. i very much appreciate al saqr relaying arab media to us, but i really would prefer it if one at least has to click through to a website or tweet to be exposed to it this hasn't happened in any of the videos he's announced tone-neutrally, nor has he even linked these videos, much less embedded them.
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Dec 12, 2023 01:54
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looks like houthis (ansarallah) may of nagged another ship
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Dec 12, 2023 01:55
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Ansarallah building nothing but salvage corvettes
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Dec 12, 2023 01:58
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Strep Vote posted:Maybe just say "no combat footage" except in sick music videos released by the resistance? I truly hate labeling blown up tanks as gore, it verges on newspeak and does legwork for the zionists you don't even see the blown-up tank! just the red triangle & a still shot of a fireball.
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Dec 12, 2023 01:58
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ing about rockets and property damage.
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Jel Shaker posted:power washing a loose finger you found in the trunk down the drain because it’s more hassle than it’s worth to post it to the family and all that goddamned admin I forget which ISAF country this is, but someone had a military funeral, then they found part of his hand or foot or something, and then the bereaved family was asked if they wanted another funeral or something. Maybe I'm confusing this with a 9/11 family?
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Dec 12, 2023 01:59
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Willa Rogers posted:this hasn't happened in any of the videos he's announced tone-neutrally, nor has he even linked these videos, much less embedded them. he's this guy V. Illych L. posted:it seems clear that atrocities were perpetrated by the palestinian side so i honestly don't know what his game is
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Dec 12, 2023 02:01
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vil is terminally eurocommunist
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Dec 12, 2023 02:02
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Al! posted:he's this guy he's the narc 
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Dec 12, 2023 02:04
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let's do progressive stack but for war footage
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Dec 12, 2023 02:05
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Post-penetration damage inside an armoured vehicle depends on the interior volume, really. See, armour is incredibly resilient (duh). Therefore, anything that defeats armour is, by the nature of the problem in physics, going to defeat it in a small area, either physically (armour piercing projectile) or chemically (shaped charge creates a metal slug that penetrates the armour). The exception to this was HESH, but NATO is no longer able to make it, so lol. In any case, whatever defeats armour, because armour is resilient, is also going to be incredibly energetic. In all cases, it's also going to be extremely hot, just from friction. So you have a very small, very energetic area. In a tank, because armour (which is resilient to keep things like this out) is both heavy and expensive, pretty much everything in the space behind the armour is compressed into as small a volume as possible. Fuel, beside ammunition, beside people, beside the engine. Damaging any one of those may end the mission of the tank. So, anything that penetrates the armour, even if it's a comparatively small idk, "beam", is going to collide with important things. However, armoured personnel carriers are the exception, because they have a big volume of air, it's where the people sit. So they can penetrate and the area that is damaged is confined to what the penetrator or energy from the HEAT comes in contact with, without setting off fuel, or ammunition, or any of the other things in a typical crew compartment. I don't know if I'm explaining this problem in a relatable way, but you're looking at a diameter of about 40mm for a typical penetrating rod before being eroded by the armour, and about the same for the jet of a HEAT charge, again before being eroded by armour, so it really depends on what that hits along the way.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:09
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Strep Vote posted:Maybe just say "no combat footage" except in sick music videos released by the resistance? I truly hate labeling blown up tanks as gore, it verges on newspeak and does legwork for the zionists no footage in which people probably die is as I understand it the rule but I didn't read the sad thread. Perhaps speng could take this opportunity to clarify this rule, I know they love rules. Then you GBS or where ever rejects can shut up about how much you want to post videos of people being exploded. Pener Kropoopkin posted:If you're American, Canadian, German, or British: ruin your communities the Trashy Tony way. Sadly nobody has trusted me near a tank to steal
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Dec 12, 2023 02:09
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Strep Vote posted:"shielding" us from stuff shown on mainstream Arab media in the name of our mental health is some patronizing Western bullshit It's this. There's no justification for it and that's fine. The people that run the website personally don't like it, and that's ok. The mods should just say that and let it be dropped.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:10
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Willa Rogers posted:this hasn't happened in any of the videos he's announced tone-neutrally, nor has he even linked these videos, much less embedded them. i'm not accusing him of doing any such thing, but since the discussion is now going as to where the line ought to go i think that's where it ought to go for the reasons posted. i read some of the posting above as approval-in-principle of combat footage including deaths, and i disagree with that Al! posted:he's this guy it may be that i don't have much of a game and am just posting as i see it e. people have a tendency to get carried away when they feel righteous and that makes people stupid. that's bad, imo V. Illych L. has issued a correction as of 02:14 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 02:10
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well then that's not clear at all
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Dec 12, 2023 02:11
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Frosted Flake posted:Post-penetration damage inside an armoured vehicle depends on the interior volume, really. Just to clarify here, a shaped charge penetrates kinetically right? Also, if you or anyone else had anything to say about the effectiveness of spall liners and their impact on the number and type of casualties, I'd be all ears.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:12
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Al! posted:well then that's not clear at all I'm sorry was this brutal takedown not sufficient explanation? Raskolnikov38 posted:vil is terminally eurocommunist
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Dec 12, 2023 02:14
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Karach posted:Ansarallah building nothing but salvage corvettes
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Dec 12, 2023 02:18
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my secret is that i have mostly very mundane mainstream socialist opinions and that makes basically everyone mad at me
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Dec 12, 2023 02:18
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Willa Rogers posted:I watched the video Al-Saqr mentioned (after finding it by using search terms) and like all other hamas videos it stops short of showing bodies or anything else after the red triangle blast. the worst thing ive seen from this since oct 7 was actually regular al-jazeera stream coverage of the al-ahli hospital press conference right after the airstrike there (do not watch it, its not a regular press conference, there's dead babies and kids it's bad  ) it had no warning on their site :| like i really wasn't referring to the source but the overall intake of nasty poo poo happening there and seeing it, just saying to be careful since following it up close is where you'll see all the worst parts
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Dec 12, 2023 02:18
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Weka posted:Just to clarify here, a shaped charge penetrates kinetically right? Yes, it creates a slug of metal from the liner that then acts like an armour piercing shot would. The "jet of plasma" thing is a popular misunderstanding. It's the projectile created out of the liner when the shell detonates that defeats the armour. Good question about spall liners. They were supposed to have made HESH unsuitable for defeating MBTs, but from what I can glean, really, you can think of them as flak jackets built into the vehicle. In a lot of ways they literally are. So they keep out the least energetic fragments, like flak jackets, while there's still a narrower cone where they're totally defeated.   
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Dec 12, 2023 02:19
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Frosted Flake posted:Post-penetration damage inside an armoured vehicle depends on the interior volume, really. Basically, the anti-tank munition mostly does its damage in a very small area because it has to be focused on that area in order to get through armor. An APC can conceivably be struck by one and not instantly catastrophically explode, because it's such a soft target with lots of space between critical subsystems. The "plasma stream" you guys are talking about would lose energy quickly enough that if you aren't right next to where it cuts into the vehicle you can probably get out before the whole thing goes up in flames. Whereas in a proper tank, everything's going to be packed so tightly that a penetrating hit from a HEAT round is virtually guaranteed to destroy something important, if not the entire tank in the process. Am I understanding that right? Chillgamesh has issued a correction as of 02:23 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 02:21
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Frosted Flake posted:Post-penetration damage inside an armoured vehicle depends on the interior volume, really. does a plasma-heated(?) rod create super-heated air in a confined space pretty quickly?
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Dec 12, 2023 02:21
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its real dumb to get pissy about al saqr mentioning that videos exist of soldiers being caught in an explosive cloud that could've been fatal. Nothing that I've seen Hamas has released even contains any gore just the vague knowledge that it involves real people. I had classes where we watched combat footage without getting instant turbo PTSD. As always I think al saqr should have thread diplomatic immunity and should be able to post whatever they want without interference. If some d&d tedious concern trolls who want to both sides Hamas and the IDF are bothered they can just put him on ignore.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:22
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I think "Can describe the videos, just dont post images" is good enough. It's a unique situation from a conventional war, because in a normal war you can gauge progress by territory gained, but in this war it's specifically a war of eradication vs. demoralization, and the only side that can confirm military deaths is suppressing them. 100 Russians or Ukrainians getting killed in one day would literally mean nothing, less than nothing if you instead have territory maps to look on. 100 IDF casualties in a day would be a catastrophic, war-halting result.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:28
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not accusing him of doing any such thing, but since the discussion is now going as to where the line ought to go i think that's where it ought to go for the reasons posted. i read some of the posting above as approval-in-principle of combat footage including deaths, and i disagree with that stop being a disingenuous gently caress V. Illych L. posted:i personally don't want to see people get blown up, corpses etc. i very much appreciate al saqr relaying arab media to us, but i really would prefer it if one at least has to click through to a website or tweet to be exposed to it would you rather he linked to the videos than announced that they existed, is that what you're saying? if not, then stop being a disingenuous gently caress.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:29
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^^I think they just meant not wanting a tweet that potentially gets a thumbnail of dead children added to it later, but being fine with the reporting otherwise.Oglethorpe posted:does a plasma-heated(?) rod create super-heated air in a confined space pretty quickly? I think the round on the inside is like being shot point blank by one of those dragon shotgun shells, but with more bigger sparkly burning metal. It quickly slows down and dumps its heat inside the cabin but the heat is probably not the worst aspect. It's being shot point blank with molten metal. For APCs anyway. In a tank it'll cause more boom e: the above applies to not being in the direct line of fire of course Leandros has issued a correction as of 02:38 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 02:31
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FirstnameLastname posted:the worst thing ive seen from this since oct 7 was actually regular al-jazeera stream coverage of the al-ahli hospital press conference right after the airstrike there (do not watch it, its not a regular press conference, there's dead babies and kids it's bad I'm such a wuss I can't even watch the videos of injured children. I can't even read the replies to the Al Qassam videos lest I'm not prepared to see what's in them. I can't watch horror movies. I think it's weird that people play pew-pew video games but I also know they were developed by the DoD to specifically acclimate people to blood & guts so no judgment on those who do. I watch subbed turkish tv more than u.s. tv bc the turkish tv blurs out even tiny bloody scratches on people. It's impossible to convey the degree to which I'm a wussy old who takes to the fainting couch when I see explicit gore, which is why I'm defending al-saqr's tone-neutral announcements.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:36
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Willa Rogers posted:stop being a disingenuous gently caress  concern trolls are so loving tedious (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) FuzzySlippers has issued a correction as of 02:44 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 02:37
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Oglethorpe posted:does a plasma-heated(?) rod create super-heated air in a confined space pretty quickly? it makes a huge pressure front that ends people i think the liner gets through the armor then the shockwave pushing it into the tank is the force that does the damage
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Dec 12, 2023 02:37
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Willa Rogers posted:I'm such a wuss I can't even watch the videos of injured children. I can't even read the replies to the Al Qassam videos lest I'm not prepared to see what's in them. i just said to be careful how much of it he exposed himself to and how often idk what those other people are talking about
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Dec 12, 2023 02:40
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Chillgamesh posted:Basically, the anti-tank munition mostly does its damage in a very small area because it has to be focused on that area in order to get through armor. An APC can conceivably be struck by one and not instantly catastrophically explode, because it's such a soft target with lots of space between critical subsystems. The "plasma stream" you guys are talking about would lose energy quickly enough that if you aren't right next to where it cuts into the vehicle you can probably get out before the whole thing goes up in flames. Whereas in a proper tank, everything's going to be packed so tightly that a penetrating hit from a HEAT round is virtually guaranteed to destroy something important, if not the entire tank in the process. Am I understanding that right? Yes, as explained here, Leandros posted:I think the round on the inside is like being shot point blank by one of those dragon shotgun shells, but with more bigger sparkly burning metal. It quickly slows down and dumps its heat inside the cabin but the heat is probably not the worst aspect. It's being shot point blank with molten metal. For APCs anyway. In a tank it'll cause more boom So to tie it into Gradenko's research on Arab militaries, and the WW3 thread's discussion of the Gulf War being the worst thing that happened to NATO, it turns out the US severely overestimated the damage they did to Iraqi tanks in the Persian Gulf War. Specifically, they greatly overestimated the lethality of their armour piercing darts, the ones made of depleted uranium. Understandably, Iraqi crews took off running as soon as their tanks were penetrated, often as soon as they were hit, but the actual damage done to most of them by US tank guns was not as great as imagined - unless they blew up outright. This is actually a problem for the US, because, supposing the overall battle had gone in a different direction, many of them were reparable, many of them had no fatalities and minor-to-moderate wounds among some part - but not all - of the 3 man crew. Planning around the assumption that every shot totally destroyed the enemy (which seemed to be the case because the Iraqis had low morale and were eager to hit the bricks) would lead to problems if, say, a US proxy was armed with NATO tanks and went on an offensive against an opposing force using Soviet pattern tanks.... The US had believed that the energy of the darts piercing the armour would destroy everything behind them, or the uranium would set the air in the crew compartment on fire, or any number of other things, but, being a dense rod of uranium, they created a 20-40mm hole, that destroyed anything behind it, and not much else.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:41
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Weka posted:idk how old you are but Syria disarmed all the militias in Lebanon except Hezbollah and Palestinian resistance orgs in the early 90s. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt and giving them a 50/50 split like the former Soviet Union. Then if they is the case, then you really just have officers and NCOs as professionals and the rest are conscripts. Reservists are still going to be worse, at least the conscripts have more recent training and are in better shape but at the same time. The majority of those conscripts still won’t be useful for combat service just based on how their system works, which has to mean they are going to have to rely on reservists from here on out. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 03:02 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 02:42
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This might help visualize what's happening and how it's still a physical process,  B, would be if it was just an energetic jet caused by the explosives (A is if explosives are not shaped to form a jet at all). As you can see, the effect against armour is only made possible with C, the jet shaping and then propelling a projectile formed from the liner.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:44
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Willa Rogers posted:I'm such a wuss I can't even watch the videos of injured children. I can't even read the replies to the Al Qassam videos lest I'm not prepared to see what's in them. I'm on the same wavelength also that the modern Doom games I consider almost too unpleasant to play from the gore and I don't like watching horror movies. I actually figured out Telegram and have joined? subed? (Telegram is confusing) some axis of resistance related channels that have posted footage and nothing on there has been eye gouging. The fact that it's higher resolution than old combat footage doesn't change that much because war footage when it isn't focused on the gore is always a confusing mess. I actually think far more Westerners should have some knowledge of the reality of war rather than view everything about geopolitical conflict through the lens of games and movies. I don't think gore is at all necessary because that always has a touch of the unreal. Instead, it's just seeing people stumbling around acting in the uncertain stuttery manner of real people that helps you actually understand, not just have knowledge of, that history grinds up real actual thinking people. It's why there is no clean intervention or happy air war. It's all a hosed up mess that is so rarely necessary. Hamas fighting a righteous war is such an incredibly rare occurrence.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:46
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FuzzySlippers posted:Hamas fighting a righteous war is such an incredibly rare occurrence. It's also the only shining sunbeam of hope amind all the gross poo poo the idf is doing to palestine & the u.s./western propaganda. I need my hopium fix, dammit!
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Dec 12, 2023 02:47
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FirstnameLastname posted:it makes a huge pressure front that ends people i think I imagine that the main shockwave does not in fact contribute that much as it is going much faster than the copper, so its gone by the time the armour is penetrated. Could be wrong.
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Dec 12, 2023 02:57
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