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Platystemon posted:
saintonan posted:richwhitesuburbs.jpg A few of them aren't even that. Rexburg, ID is a farm town of about 40,000 that's also the site of BYU-Idaho. And Windsor, Wyoming doesn't even exist. It's the name of a series of LGBTQ romance novels.
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Dec 12, 2023 20:34
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NDP posted:A few of them aren't even that. Rexburg, ID is a farm town of about 40,000 that's also the site of BYU-Idaho. And Windsor, Wyoming doesn't even exist. It's the name of a series of LGBTQ romance novels. That is Windsor, Colorado. Very rude of you to assume that all parallelogram states are the same.
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Dec 12, 2023 20:36
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Groda posted:Lake in the Hills, IL is absolutely full of money. My friends used to take PPL lessons at their municipal airport. The truly wealthy don’t allow students to burn leaded gas in their presence.
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Dec 12, 2023 21:06
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FreudianSlippers posted:I feel like a town needs to have at least 100k people to even count as a small city and not counting as a proper city until you hit one million. Well, then the US only has 10 cities period, because the city vs metro area distinction is dumb. Like Memphis and San Francisco would not count as "proper cities" because neither clears 1 million, technically. The only 10 cities in the US formally clearing 1m people are: New York City, NY (Population: 8,622,357) Los Angeles, CA (Population: 4,085,014) Chicago, IL (Population: 2,670,406) Houston, TX (Population: 2,378,146) Phoenix, AZ (Population: 1,743,469) Philadelphia, PA (Population: 1,590,402) San Antonio, TX (Population: 1,579,504) San Diego, CA (Population: 1,469,490) Dallas, TX (Population: 1,400,337) San Jose, CA (Population: 1,036,242) 100k seems like a reasonable cutoff though for those types of statistics, or if you wanted to really do a better job then I guess 1m people within a 10 mile radius of "downtown" would sound fairly reasonable too and work the vast majority of the time better than municipal boundaries. It’s an issue in a lot of places of course, like the city of Brussels is exaggeratedly tiny (188k people) in statistics as compared to its actual in reality size (2 million), since it is subdivided into a bunch of fake "different" cities like Schaerbeek and Ixelles. E: I looked around and can’t think of a city I consider a real city that has under 100k people in the municipal population. Brussels so far has the worst discrepancy between actual population and the "official" population. It’s probably hard to come up with a country that does a worse job on municipal boundaries than Belgium, though. Saladman fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 22:14
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Cities are nebulous and the city proper measurements never capture anything useful. Technically, the second biggest city in Japan is Yokohama, not Osaka, but that's an absurd thing to assert if you actually look at them. China gets even crazier, the city boundaries in some places are enormous and encompass villages a hundred kilometers away that have zero connection to the city in question. Chongqing is the classic there but Chengdu was like that, Beijing is, a bunch are. I agree anything with a metro area under a million is a piddly lil village and not a real city though.
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Dec 12, 2023 22:22
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That's why you just always look at metro areas and not cities as defined by city limits.
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Dec 12, 2023 22:23
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a lot of cities in the US could really stand to be consolidated (cleveland is a good example) to at least the county level but i don't think that's far enough all cities should new yorkify. if the county is remotely urban and adjacent: merge that poo poo. it even goes for nyc too. it is time to merge westchester and nassau counties into the city
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Dec 12, 2023 22:27
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:a lot of cities in the US could really stand to be consolidated (cleveland is a good example) to at least the county level It still gets tricky. Is Hoboken part of NYC? Newark? It seems wild to include Staten Island but not Hoboken. Grand Fromage posted:China gets even crazier, the city boundaries in some places are enormous and encompass villages a hundred kilometers away that have zero connection to the city in question. Chongqing is the classic there but Chengdu was like that, Beijing is, a bunch are. Google doesn't even try to show the municipal boundaries of most Chinese cities when I type the city name into Google Maps. Metro area of at least 1m seems fair, although then people go wild with the idea and you get crazy things, like the official Greater Luxembourg region has 11.6 million people ("Grande Région"; https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_R%C3%A9gion). Luxemburgo não é um pais pequeno? VVVV: "It's ultimately subjective, but I would estimate the metro population to be 1.5 million at most." That's fair, you know way more about it than I do. 188k vs. 1.5m is still a huge discrepancy though! Saladman fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 23:01
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Saladman posted:It’s an issue in a lot of places of course, like the city of Brussels is exaggeratedly tiny (188k people) in statistics as compared to its actual in reality size (2 million), since it is subdivided into a bunch of fake "different" cities like Schaerbeek and Ixelles. Brussels is the exception within Belgium, though. There was a massive wave of municipal mergers in 1977 that reduced the number of municipalities from 2,663 to 589. The main reason this never happened in the Brussels area is, as is often the case in Belgium, related to language and politics. Constitutionally, Dutch speakers are vastly overrepresented at the legislative and (especially) executive levels in the Brussels-Capital Region (partly to compensate for the fact that francophones are overrepresented federally). Hence, there is a fear among francophones that a consolidation of the city would lead to a loss of local power for them. That's how you end up with the current absurd situation where you have 19 different municipalities within the Brussels-Capital Region, even though morphologically they form a continuous urban area. I would disagree that the 'actual' population of Brussels is 2 million, though. I live 20-25 km from that city and do not identify with it in the slightest, and I rarely go there. Despite the fact that so many people from the surrounding area work there (as I did for half a decade), the sociological reach of Brussels is more limited than you would assume for a city of its relative size. Once again, the main reasons for this are historical and linguistic. Brussels is hemmed in on three sides by medium-sized Flemish cities (Leuven, Mechelen, and Aalst), which act as regional centers for the surrounding population. The metro area does extend beyond the borders of the Brussels-Capital Region proper, but not by much, and mostly to the south into Walloon Brabant, where there are no linguistic barriers or significantly-sized cities. It's ultimately subjective, but I would estimate the metro population to be 1.5 million at most. 
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Dec 12, 2023 23:04
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Saladman posted:It’s an issue in a lot of places of course, like the city of Brussels is exaggeratedly tiny (188k people) in statistics as compared to its actual in reality size (2 million), since it is subdivided into a bunch of fake "different" cities like Schaerbeek and Ixelles.
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Dec 12, 2023 23:05
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Saladman posted:It still gets tricky. Is Hoboken part of NYC? Newark? It seems wild to include Staten Island but not Hoboken. I think a fair solution to this is to merge everything from ft lee to bayonne into nyc and then sink staten island
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Dec 12, 2023 23:07
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I'm Indonesian East Timor and East Timorese West Timor.
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Dec 12, 2023 23:36
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Saladman posted:VVVV: "It's ultimately subjective, but I would estimate the metro population to be 1.5 million at most." You actually seem to know quite a lot about it for a foreigner. You must have lived all over Europe, with a predilection for linguistically divided countries
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Dec 12, 2023 23:40
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Platystemon posted:
There's like two places on this list that I've ever heard of and only one that sounds cool to live in (Lexington, purely for the historical value).
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Dec 12, 2023 23:51
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Saladman posted:It still gets tricky. Is Hoboken part of NYC? Newark? It seems wild to include Staten Island but not Hoboken. That at least has the understandable (although still bizarre) logic of how no city crosses state lines. Many cities right on state borders have a corresponding immediately adjacent city right in the other state. More confusing are the other communities right outside the city but still in New York state in Westchester and Nassau, because they're all tightly linked into the city, and there's not that much separating the city from like Mount Vernon or Yonkers. And it's mostly just because the people there decided not to be annexed at some point. And that's kind of a problem everywhere around the world. But I think one of the worst deals is the city of Las Vegas, or rather lack thereof.  Those are all separate municipal entities with their own separate, disunited governments, except for the strategically unincorporated communities, which legally have no local government. Neither god nor man wanted Las Vegas to be a city.
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Dec 13, 2023 00:37
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You're absolutely right. We need to add a prefix to indicate population density. i demand to know the units here
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Dec 13, 2023 01:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is Windsor, Colorado. My mistake. I should wear my glasses more often.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:14
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SlothfulCobra posted:But I think one of the worst deals is the city of Las Vegas, or rather lack thereof. No, this is incorrect. Most of those divisions don't actually have any government powers and only exist as advisory zoning boards. There are four actual municipal governments on that map that actually do things (Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, Henderson, and Boulder City); everything else is essentially just an advisory zoning board. All of the typical functions of a local government are exclusively or mainly at the county level, except that sometimes the cities have their own separate, smaller versions of prestige things like police or parks departments. But for the ~50% of people who don't live in an incorporated city, they still have local government, just at the county level only.
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Dec 13, 2023 02:15
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redleader posted:i demand to know the units here People per m² I’d assume.
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Dec 13, 2023 02:18
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Most of the famous parts of Las Vegas aren't in Las Vegas but in Paradise so that the mob would have to pay slightly less taxes on their casinos. Sadly the Cosa Nostra no longer owns Vegas and it has been taken over by multinational corporations which are like organized crime but without the cool parts.
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Dec 13, 2023 02:26
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The city-county-state divide in the US leads to some of the more egregious mapcrimes in the country. In the modern era, there are few counties that actually capture a useful geographic or political unit. We have deprecated counties that are actually constituent parts of a larger city (NYC with New York, Kings, Queens, Bronx, and Richmond counties). We have consolidated city-counties where the county and city are basically co-extensive (Philadelphia, San Francisco, Jacksonville for some reason). We have a city that seceded from its county and caused the confusing situation where St. Louis is not actually in St. Louis County. We have counties bigger than states; San Bernardino county is larger than New Jersey. We have a state where they just gave up and made every county a square but badly (Iowa). However, like with many things, there is nowhere more guilty than Virginia. Featuring both independent cities (which are equivalent to counties) and counties (which can have their own incorporated towns). Some of the most famous parts of the D.C. area directly across the river from the actual District sit not in an actual city or even an incorporated part of a county, but in what the Census has to define for us as a “Place”. .png)
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Dec 13, 2023 02:37
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Ponsonby Britt posted:No, this is incorrect. Most of those divisions don't actually have any government powers and only exist as advisory zoning boards. There are four actual municipal governments on that map that actually do things (Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, Henderson, and Boulder City); everything else is essentially just an advisory zoning board. All of the typical functions of a local government are exclusively or mainly at the county level, except that sometimes the cities have their own separate, smaller versions of prestige things like police or parks departments. But for the ~50% of people who don't live in an incorporated city, they still have local government, just at the county level only. That is what it means to live in a legally unincorporated place, and county governments are a different thing from local governments and are generally insufficient for most functions and authority you would want for a large amount of people, especially insufficient for ~million people that live unincorporated around the cities of Las Vegas. Maybe Clark County may be different from their unusually high revenue from all the tax/regulation dodgers, or maybe even the unincorporated communities can bring in the state government to get poo poo done, but either way it's a weird workaround to not having actual local governments.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:21
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Swing State Victim posted:We have counties bigger than states; San Bernardino county is larger than New Jersey. We have a state where they just gave up and made every county a square but badly (Iowa). Dishonorable mention to Texas and its two hundred and fifty‐four counties (we love our eight‐bit integers, folks). Loving County, the state’s newest (!) has fifty‐one people, with a further twenty‐two counties having under two thousand residents each. The other effect of these tiny counties is dividing the urban areas badly. The Dallas–Forth Worth region is particularly nonsensical.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:30
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found this while spinning the randomwaffle wheel
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Dec 13, 2023 04:59
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 Post your most egregious municipal borders itt The US badly needs municipal consolidation/border reform
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Dec 13, 2023 05:15
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Platystemon posted:The other effect of these tiny counties is dividing the urban areas badly. The Dallas–Forth Worth region is particularly nonsensical. The DFW Metroplex does at least legitimately have the excuse of being two separate big cities and a whole slurry of separate towns that have all been growing into eachother, but haven't really squished together tightly yet. There's not really full dominance of any one city over the area, and with the growth of the general area, many of those slurried towns have grown big enough to be cities in their own right (but there are still plenty that are clearly tax dodges). And of course, while all the areas are connected, there's big swathes of very low density between the city centers. It's very weird when you try to look at it with the idea of a unitary city in mind.  That also illustrates the reason why I've never found a map of all the metroplex's municipalities at once, because it straddles at least four counties and most maps I've seen don't want to zoom out farther than the county level (or they're things like a street map that just shows neighborhoods with uncertain borders or election district maps). Houston is actually more successful at having a more united unitary city with a lot of extreme low urban density, but also it may demonstrate why you might not want to try doing that. The highways are so wide.
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Dec 13, 2023 06:44
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Grand Fromage posted:Cities are nebulous and the city proper measurements never capture anything useful. Technically, the second biggest city in Japan is Yokohama, not Osaka, but that's an absurd thing to assert if you actually look at them. China gets even crazier, the city boundaries in some places are enormous and encompass villages a hundred kilometers away that have zero connection to the city in question. Chongqing is the classic there but Chengdu was like that, Beijing is, a bunch are. redleader posted:i demand to know the units here Saladman posted:VVVV: "It's ultimately subjective, but I would estimate the metro population to be 1.5 million at most."
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Dec 13, 2023 07:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:doesn't threaten to create cities that snake away for hundreds of kilometers. Saudi Arabian urban planners threaten that with The Line. e: Technically only hundreds of kilometres if we round up from one hundred and seventy, but under it proposed population of nine million (lol), it clears the bar with over fifty thousand residents in each linear kilometre. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 07:37
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Ditocoaf posted:That's why you just always look at metro areas and not cities as defined by city limits. https://www.tomforth.co.uk/circlepopulations/  at least as good as most other methods
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Dec 13, 2023 08:37
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Space Kablooey posted:found this while spinning the randomwaffle wheel Hmm, religious colours are consistent with Europa Universalis 2, but you can tell from the shape of the provinces in Bohemia that it's not the base EU2 map. So it's either a map from a modded EU2 LP or an early EU3 LP where the map creator didn't like Catholicism being made solid yellow and switched it for EU2 gold.
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Dec 13, 2023 11:52
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speaking of games and maps, i'm guessing a decent amount of people in this thread have played diplomacy. do any of the web version have good communities? any other similar games? always had fun playing that with some old college friends, and wouldn't mind going at it again.
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Dec 13, 2023 11:54
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distortion park posted:https://www.tomforth.co.uk/circlepopulations/ Probably a good thing I have no idea how to actually gently caress around with that data, because I really want to automate it where you just mark a spot and then it keeps moving the boundary of the city until the density gets too low, to account for cities that aren't just perfectly circular. Platystemon posted:Saudi Arabian urban planners threaten that with The Line.
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Dec 13, 2023 16:17
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abelwingnut posted:speaking of games and maps, i'm guessing a decent amount of people in this thread have played diplomacy. do any of the web version have good communities? any other similar games? always had fun playing that with some old college friends, and wouldn't mind going at it again. I used to play via the DPJudge (which moved to http://ukdp.diplomatic-pouch.com) but I have no idea what the activity is like these days.
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Dec 13, 2023 19:31
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distortion park posted:https://www.tomforth.co.uk/circlepopulations/ I don't think that's a bad way to do it, but there's no way that that specific example is correct. The entire province of Antwerp only has a population of 1.85m. Doesn't fill me with confidence as to the general accuracy of this tool. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 19:46
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Phlegmish posted:I don't think that's a bad way to do it, but there's no way that that specific example is correct. The entire province of Antwerp only has a population of 1.85m. Doesn't fill me with confidence as to the general accuracy of this tool.
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Dec 13, 2023 19:52
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Phlegmish posted:I don't think that's a bad way to do it, but there's no way that that specific example is correct. The entire province of Antwerp only has a population of 1.85m. Doesn't fill me with confidence as to the general accuracy of this tool. And only then did I actually go to https://www.tomforth.co.uk/circlepopulations/ and found that if you put a 16km circle centered on Antwerp you get a completely reasonable population of 1,049,212 In other words I tracked down where the discrepancy came from and it was the screenshot that was wrong for some reason. Yes, it is a slow day at work, why do you ask?
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Dec 13, 2023 20:55
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Eiba posted:In other words I tracked down where the discrepancy came from and it was the screenshot that was wrong for some reason. Wait, the screenshot says "in 2025." 
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Dec 13, 2023 20:59
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Vavrek posted:Wait, the screenshot says "in 2025." The dataset from that website is a prediction from 2022 if I read it correctly.
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Dec 13, 2023 21:20
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Saladman posted:Well, then the US only has 10 cities period, because the city vs metro area distinction is dumb. Like Memphis and San Francisco would not count as "proper cities" because neither clears 1 million, technically. The only 10 cities in the US formally clearing 1m people are: Technically the city of London has less than 9,000 people in it. It's part of Greater London but that's more like a US county than a city government proper and the individual boroughs have their own municipal goverments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London
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Dec 13, 2023 21:40
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The EU dataset it's based on also comes with this disclaimerquote:Although tests with independent reference data show that GHSL R2022A matches or outperforms other data sources for accuracy in epochs 2018 and 2020 and matches or outperforms also all the other single epochs (1975, 1990, 2000, and 2015) included in the previous release GHSL R2019, the accuracy of the time series and its change rate are lower, especially in the rural domain. According to the JRC internal tests, the anomaly is expected to introduce a positive bias in predicted change rates of built-up surfaces and built-up volumes after the year 2000. The positive bias is especially remarkable in the rural domain as set by the GHS-SMOD R2022A. Previous GHSL R2019 was affected by larger omission errors in rural areas compared to R2022A, therefore generating an underestimation of the change rates in the rural domain Whether or not that applies in this case idk. Anyway it's the approach I like, it's pretty easy to eyeball whatever you yourself consider to count as a specific city and let's you do fun comparisons (for example a lot of UK cities are bigger than much more famous European ones, but have comparatively bad public transport and public realms, e.g. try clicking on Leeds Vs Strasbourg) distortion park fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 21:40
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