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Flesh Forge posted:in teams this is emphatically not true at all, you are essentially always able to be hitting 16 targets and almost all sets have a 16 target large radius AOE with a cooldown of below 5 seconds. they also lowered the level req for power picks so this will be available at 28 at the latest. At the damage cap the tanker can hit 16 targets with a maximum damage cap of 400% for 6400% maximum damage on an attack. A brute can hit 10 targets at a theoretical damage cap of 700%, for 7000% damage on that same attack (against a lower number of targets). Brutes passively get ~190% damage from Rage so if you assume zero other damage buffs the brute does (10*2.90)=2900% damage while the Tank does (16*1.0)=1600% damage. There's a brief range of external damage buffs where the Tank does more damage than the Brute (Roughly 300%-400%) but outside of that range the Brute does mathematically more damage with the same attack. But none of that is taking procs on enhances into account so maybe that changes things up (they are definitely a better value for tankers than brutes). And the Brute has the capacity to scale beyond that point with enough buffs/insps, while the tank does not. Also maybe 300-400% is about where most teams end up, I have no idea (But both are so strong that this effectively does not matter in practice) e: The tanker is unequivocally better for farming because the increased target cap (as far as I have been told anyway - my farmer is a brute) also affects how many enemies can run up into melee range of you meaning that you get bigger/faster pulls for clearing groups faster, but in group content you have several players for enemies to run into melee range of so there's effectively no cap. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 20:27
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nah the aggro cap is the same for everyone, the behavior of things running up to you is the large -range debuff attached to explicit Taunt effects (e.g. the Taunt power and damage/debuff auras). These have the same target caps for both the tanker and brute versions (i.e. 10 targets for toggled auras) and I'm pretty sure they perform the same. Differences in enemy behavior between tank and brute I would chalk up to anecdote. In a team the number of targets matters a great deal unless you have a truly magical team where multiple people can kill all the minions and lieuts in a single attack. There are certainly going to be some team combinations where having 6 more max targets doesn't help, but I've played a lot of tanks and brutes and have never run into one where it felt like it.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:24
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If you had not tried water/rad blaster I suggest giving it shot. It is actually really fun! Double build up is sooooooo nice.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:38
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Flesh Forge posted:nah the aggro cap is the same for everyone, the behavior of things running up to you is the large -range debuff attached to explicit Taunt effects (e.g. the Taunt power and damage/debuff auras). These have the same target caps for both the tanker and brute versions (i.e. 10 targets for toggled auras) and I'm pretty sure they perform the same. Differences in enemy behavior between tank and brute I would chalk up to anecdote. I'm reasonably certain it's only Taunt itself that has -Range on it. Auras don't.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:43
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Post yer dm/shield scrapper build!
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Jun 9, 2023 21:44
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I don't definitively know how it works so I'm not saying you're wrong, but there has to be more to it than a -range debuff on taunt auras. I can turn my taunt auras off and stand in one group while another group shoots at me:  (There are more than 10 enemies adjacent to me in this picture, so enemies from the far group are stationary) Then enemies from the far group trickle in one-by-one as I kill the nearby enemies once I get down below 10 in melee range:  (There are 7 living enemies adjacent to me in this picture and 3 more running toward me) This same behavior happens on my other ATs like Sentinel and Scrapper. Everything I know about it is just an assumption from interacting with it in this way so I'm sure some of it is wrong, and I don't have a Tanker myself to test if they get bigger pulls with. I asked in the help channel once if Tankers could pull more enemies at once this way and was told yes, but the help channel is often wrong so 
deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 21:49
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deep dish peat moss posted:At the damage cap the tanker can hit 16 targets with a maximum damage cap of 400% for 6400% maximum damage on an attack. A brute can hit 10 targets at a theoretical damage cap of 700%, for 7000% damage on that same attack (against a lower number of targets). Your percentages are off, to say the least. To use an actual real example, let's use Fire Sword Circle and slot it with 3 level 50 IOs and 3 standard damage procs; this is roughly ED capped damage, and the procs have an average-ish 62% proc rate. On a Tanker, this averages out to be 308.6 damage x 16 targets = 4908.8. On a Brute with their realistic 80% Fury cap, this averages out to be 442.4 damage x 10 targets = 4424. This gap trades some blows with lower target cap powers like Pendulum or most melee cones, but the realistic increase of arc/radius boosts means Tanks are actually hitting their maximum use case scenarios more often than Brutes are, and in teaming scenarios Fury winds up eating a lot of the difference in "room to expand" for the two -- assuming a power is at 100% damage slotting, Brutes have 340% of damage buff leeway, while Tanks have 300%. The total numbers wind up being similar at the absolute damage cap, but the 5-6 extra targets, potential for more targets that procs can hit, and AOE boost to hit the targets to begin with puts Tanks solidly ahead in a theoretical sense. Practically, the arc/radius increases also apply to things like your APP sets for enormous ranged AOEs, as well as aura toggles being larger or Darkest Night having a 38ft(!!!) debuff. Combined with inherently higher armor set values and higher base HP, it's a bit of a blowout besides Brute having a much easier earlier leveling experience and a better time with single target, but... so do Scrappers. So do Stalkers. So do Blasters. You can trade blows in some departments on damage with a tank, sure, but you're still worse off on a Brute for the actual tanking part. Which is to say: HC probably went a little too hard on buffing Tankers, but, you're also right in that this really doesn't matter to most people. deep dish peat moss posted:4) Some people will tell you that there's a 45% softcap for defense and you should ignore these people. The 45% 'softcap' is the point where even-level minions only have a 5% chance to hit you. You will most likely never fight even-level enemies at 50, and most of your time will be spent fighting non-minions. The only true "cap" to defense is 95%, and the higher your defense is the more valuable each point becomes. Adding 1% Melee Defense when you already have 90% reduces the damage you take by 10% overall and this is especially potent because Defense does not have diminishing returns, a flat 1% from a set bonus is always a flat 1%. Also every single part of this is incorrect. The 45% softcap is nomenclature in relation to the native acc bonuses enemies get for rank and relative level and works for standard +4 AVs. It's mildly misleading because enemies can have native acc bonuses on attacks, tohit buffs, or other ways to debuff your defenses. But in any case, 95% isn't a cap for anything, and the actual AT caps are much higher. The effective defense you need to get hit 5% of the time is just an arms race in terms of how much +tohit enemies have. In incarnate content, enemies natively have higher tohit and the soft cap raises there to 59%. It's especially hosed in HM ITF where the Romans have swords that debuff def, and run stacking massive tohit buffs, so there's no set value and most players just stack Barrier Destiny and pray.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:50
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I wish there was a better source of numbers for this game because I took my percentages off the homecoming wiki  I will concede on Tankers vs Brutes. But also, what 80% fury cap for brutes? My brute hovers pretty consistently at 95% fury with the +fury ATO proc. Do people not use that usually?Nonexistence posted:Post yer dm/shield scrapper build! I haven't even dived into optimizing this build yet but it has felt absurdly strong anyway, I just lazily stacked sets for +positional defense (Haven't done hardmodes on it though)  The only non-standard thing I did with Incarnates is Diamagnetic interface because I felt like my damage was high enough already and -tohit/-regen is a nice debuff proc for this character. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 21:56
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John Murdoch posted:I'm reasonably certain it's only Taunt itself that has -Range on it. Auras don't. I checked this and you're right, only the Taunt power has the -range debuff. The amount has been changed since the last time I looked at it, Tanker gets a full -100% and Brute gets -75%.The radii are the same but I'm pretty sure the Tanker version gets increased by Gauntlet (+50%). Taunt's target caps are the same between Tanker and Brute.
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Jun 9, 2023 22:22
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Abroham Lincoln posted:Your percentages are off, to say the least. I appreciate this write-up and thank you for it, but I have to ask: do people actually slot their powers like that? I would expect recharge, accuracy, or endurance enhancement rather than 3 procs on top of that damage. FSC ain't cheap!
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Jun 9, 2023 22:31
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deep dish peat moss posted:I wish there was a better source of numbers for this game because I took my percentages off the homecoming wiki It's been a while since I've seriously paid attention on a Brute but iirc it's done in such a way that it can spike higher with the ATO but the bar forcibly tries to gravitate itself around 80%. Why? Who knows!  For information resources, there are guides out there on the HC forums and people generally will help you out on Discords. The wiki is academic in a way that's more reference than a tool for learning. rarbatrol posted:I appreciate this write-up and thank you for it, but I have to ask: do people actually slot their powers like that? I would expect recharge, accuracy, or endurance enhancement rather than 3 procs on top of that damage. FSC ain't cheap! No, not really, it was just purely an example to maximize damage for comparison's sake. Real slotting always depends on the needs of your build, but FSC is a pretty okay spot for procs. If you want to slot heavy on procs, you'd usually need tools to make up for the downsides of not having damage/accuracy/endurance/recharge slotting. You actively want to avoid recharge in a power to maximize proc chances, and powers like Hasten or Ageless Destiny and other recharge set bonuses are easy enough to come by. Accuracy/tohit is tougher, but the Kismet unique IO, Tactics, Focused Accuracy, or some other specifics from sets let you bypass needing to slot it to varying degrees (like from Invuln, Bio, or SS.) And then endurance is much the same as Accuracy, though there's typically more sets that allow you to make up for it outside of slotting the power. Damage is also tough, but taking Musculature Core is a good way to get a bunch of slotted damage, and you can usually spare at least one enhancement dedicated to damage. You could also do a sort of hybrid slotting to partially make up some deficiencies, like taking a proc from a set and then an Acc/Damage from the same set. This works best with the Very Rare and PvP sets, since they both have procs and don't need to be attuned. Using the raw level 50 enhancements, you can slap some Enhancement Boosters on them to cheat out a few extra percents, which does amazing things with Very Rare sets and their high numbers. With a Tanker using Musculature Core, you could do something like this,  And it actually averages out even higher at 405 damage with a slightly more reasonable end cost, too. Abroham Lincoln fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 23:37
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deep dish peat moss posted:I don't definitively know how it works so I'm not saying you're wrong, but there has to be more to it than a -range debuff on taunt auras. I think the way the aggro cap works is that enemies shooting at you aren't actually "aggroed" on you but are essentially making attacks of opportunity since they can see you, but aren't allowed to aggro on you and don't have any other targets available. They won't follow you if you run away and if there were other players around they'd attack them instead. Once you take out the guys in the group surrounding you, you're freeing up space in your aggro cap and that allows the distant targets to aggro on you "for real" and engage their full AI.
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Jun 10, 2023 00:06
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deep dish peat moss posted:4) Some people will tell you that there's a 45% softcap for defense and you should ignore these people. The 45% 'softcap' is the point where even-level minions only have a 5% chance to hit you. You will most likely never fight even-level enemies at 50, and most of your time will be spent fighting non-minions. The only true "cap" to defense is 95%, and the higher your defense is the more valuable each point becomes. Adding 1% Melee Defense when you already have 90% reduces the damage you take by 10% overall and this is especially potent because Defense does not have diminishing returns, a flat 1% from a set bonus is always a flat 1%. I do not believe this is quite true, but I could be wrong, I'm having a hard time finding the hard numbers at the moment. I thought that enemies get an accuracy bonus, not a tohit bonus, up to like +3, then start getting a tohit bonus beyond that. The important thing about accuracy is that it's a multiplier on the hit chance applied after the 5% floor. So if an enemy has a +50% accuracy modifier, the lowest you can get their chance to hit you is 7.5% ((50% tohit - 45% def) x 1.50 accuracy). The real floor is seldom 5% because lots of mobs & powers have accuracy modifiers. At least, that's what I thought was the reason why my log would typically show 7%-10% hit chances generally. I do know that incarnate content mobs are also given a flat tohit bonus to counteract all the def-softcapped players, I forget how high they go. It's possible I'm flat-out wrong here, that's what I've been operating under for years but cannot remember where I first read that or find it now. It may have been many years and patches ago. Edit: Whoops I missed an entire page since that zzMisc fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 02:01
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Chiming in to add that my Dark Melee/Shield Brute is on the low end of dream builds (1 Winter set, 1 Purple set) but can still solo +3/x8 Malta missions and have a blast doing it. I'm pondering trying out an Ice Melee/Ninja stalker, anyone have any opinions on if I'm going to hate it? I love my Savage/SR stalker, and it seems like Ice Melee might be pretty fun.
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Jun 10, 2023 06:04
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Abroham Lincoln posted:It's been a while since I've seriously paid attention on a Brute but iirc it's done in such a way that it can spike higher with the ATO but the bar forcibly tries to gravitate itself around 80%. Why? Who knows! Fury did get adjusted at some point, so that may not be true anymore. Edit: This seems to be what I'm thinking of. Unsurprisingly it went hand in hand with the Tanker buffs. I dunno if those changes would completely bypass the 80% thing, but maintaining closer to 90-95% Fury sounds more like what I experience on my Spines/Dark so The Cheshire Cat posted:I think the way the aggro cap works is that enemies shooting at you aren't actually "aggroed" on you but are essentially making attacks of opportunity since they can see you, but aren't allowed to aggro on you and don't have any other targets available. They won't follow you if you run away and if there were other players around they'd attack them instead. Once you take out the guys in the group surrounding you, you're freeing up space in your aggro cap and that allows the distant targets to aggro on you "for real" and engage their full AI. This is all correct. They only added that whole extended aggro thing fairly recently. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 07:12
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Fearless_Decoy posted:Chiming in to add that my Dark Melee/Shield Brute is on the low end of dream builds (1 Winter set, 1 Purple set) but can still solo +3/x8 Malta missions and have a blast doing it. ninjutsu is okay, ice armor is dramatically better imo
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Jun 10, 2023 13:15
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Flesh Forge posted:ninjutsu is okay, ice armor is dramatically better imo Ninjutsu is one of those sets that didn't really come together.
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Jun 11, 2023 20:00
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I think it works better in its scrapper/sentinel iteration because you lose Hide, Caltrops, and Smoke Flash to get end recovery and a resistance power that turns down knockback and gives you something where you can stack the two resistance IOs that give global defence. And then admittedly kind of just bargain basement Hide.
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Jun 11, 2023 20:04
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ninjitsu is sick on blaster after the HC buffs to it and contributed to one of my best pylon times ever
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Jun 12, 2023 21:31
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Yeah Blaster /Nin is a hoot just for getting almost-Seeds of Confusion, super good secondary.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:37
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which of these servers are y'all playing on? Unsure how accurate the OP is since it was last updated three years ago.
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Jun 16, 2023 05:37
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Excelsior
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Jun 16, 2023 06:32
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i play on everlasting because RP people are a bit less concerned with min-maxing but most goons are on excelsior i think yeah
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Jun 16, 2023 06:52
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i should fix the OP up a bit yeah, wow. i think it's still largely accurate aside from saying indom for server. ill give it a once over sometime this week.
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Jun 16, 2023 11:44
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Jazerus posted:i play on everlasting because RP people are a bit less concerned with min-maxing but most goons are on excelsior i think yeah NB there are definitely some people on Excelsior that Care A Lot about your build and will tell you how much it sucks but if you /ignore them everything is just fine
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Jun 16, 2023 14:52
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Ran an all-bear dfb on everlasting tonight. Was a lot of fun, had a couple people way past dfb level join in just for the novelty.
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Jun 19, 2023 07:45
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Bear Patrol lives again
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Jun 19, 2023 13:25
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Rolled a Symphony/Energy dominator and oh that's a lot of fun with large packs. Whoever's not stunned or confused is bouncing around from knockback.
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Jun 29, 2023 09:45
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Howard Beale posted:Rolled a Symphony/Energy dominator and oh that's a lot of fun with large packs. Whoever's not stunned or confused is bouncing around from knockback. Symphony seems like much more of a dom set, yeah. Great control, like no damage - even your pet is just a pint-size version of you echoing the same controls. Which is great for dominators. Not so much for Fallen Trazom over here: 
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Jul 1, 2023 15:01
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That active lately, eh? I was considering coming back to try some of the proliferated sets and new AT mechanics on Homecoming, but if the goon presence is dead then blah.
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Dec 16, 2023 01:26
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McSpanky posted:That active lately, eh? I was considering coming back to try some of the proliferated sets and new AT mechanics on Homecoming, but if the goon presence is dead then blah. Outside of goons the games pretty active with regular Hami and Mothership Raids, and iTrials. Just not many goons.
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Dec 16, 2023 05:07
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Yeah, odds of encountering a terrible team of randos has been pretty low for me so far. I hit up a weekly trial with a different character every day and I've hit maybe two so far? Randos are all you really need to explore the proliferated sets unless you've got some cracked-out build with 40 procs in mind.
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Dec 16, 2023 14:47
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the game is in a tremendously good state and you should play it just based on its own merits tbh, the player base is generally very cool and all the changes have been super good.
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Dec 16, 2023 15:24
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Really the only empty part of the game is if you try to play through the Going Rogue start. Praetoria is basically abandoned.
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Dec 16, 2023 15:53
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I'm on once or twice a week, I'm waiting on Homecoming to actually push out the closed beta stuff they've been working on for months. And months. And months. I poked my head in their Discord back in November and there's a few new interesting things, not sure if I'm allowed to spoil anything or not.
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Dec 17, 2023 00:46
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Hunter Noventa posted:Really the only empty part of the game is if you try to play through the Going Rogue start. Praetoria is basically abandoned. ...just like it used to be.
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Dec 17, 2023 02:17
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Yeah Praetoria has always had that issue because of how disconnected it is from the rest of the game. The storylines are neat to go through once but after you've done them there's not a lot of reason to do it again.
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Dec 17, 2023 02:21
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah Praetoria has always had that issue because of how disconnected it is from the rest of the game. The storylines are neat to go through once but after you've done them there's not a lot of reason to do it again. Redside was a good idea but two years later it was deserted. Praetoria was a mediocre idea and it died after three months.
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Dec 17, 2023 13:37
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Eh it's some pretty neat content in itself to do solo if you start a lot of characters, even if the game isn't really great solo, but yeah the whole forced segregation thing was not smart. I took a lot of Homecoming characters through it for the different badge names and titles and stuff, that's nifty.
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Dec 17, 2023 16:11
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I keep meaning on planning out a Lets Play of all the Praetoria arcs - there's a lot of interesting stuff there and I think the Imperial City Crusader arc is some of the strongest stuff they made. the 15-20 stuff partially holds together but was clearly not heavily looked-over for bugs, but the overall ride from level 1 to 20 is still smooth. It's content that isn't really run often at all because even just duoing it with a second person destroys the xp curve and you out-level contacts like crazy, but I honestly never thought of it as boring content, if that makes sense.
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Dec 17, 2023 17:15
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