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Kchama posted:Their just trying to justify their piracy. They don't give a poo poo about Gazans. And if it helps people does that matter? Even if they don't care but it helps to drive things to negotiation as it were. Also, how are you certain of the lack of care?
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Dec 20, 2023 10:58
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Kchama posted:Their just trying to justify their piracy. They don't give a poo poo about Gazans. Ansar Allah's actions make zero sense whatsoever if they do not care enormously about the Palestinian genocide
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Dec 20, 2023 11:00
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Why would they not care? It's not hard to do
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Dec 20, 2023 11:31
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Josef bugman posted:And if it helps people does that matter? Even if they don't care but it helps to drive things to negotiation as it were. Also, how are you certain of the lack of care? Is it helping people? Like people just seem to be assuming that it'd a good thing, but what good has actually come from it? A big flaming stink posted:Ansar Allah's actions make zero sense whatsoever if they do not care enormously about the Palestinian genocide People like to say they're doing things for good, non-self-interested reasons all the time, even when they blatantly aren't. The fact that they're joining forces with Somali pirates to do hijackings points towards it not being particularly pointed towards helping Gazans in reality but posturing to look good (and also steal some poo poo). Not everyone who claims to be in the good fight is actually in the good fight. Maybe I'm just cynical from seeing... literally the same sort of poo poo happening elsewhere and being used to justify crimes. I have little trust for them. Oh dear me posted:Why would they not care? It's not hard to do It's easy to say you care, even when you don't. Their actions don't seem to point to a particular care about actually striking at Israel and more just hitting things in general. Unless Liberia is a well-known Israel ally. Not to mention these attacks aren't like, new or anything. They've been doing them for quite a while. They've ramped them up recently, but it just seems like they've seen an opportunity to strike while everyone is distracted.
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Dec 20, 2023 11:52
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I can believe that the group whose slogan includes the lines "Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews" is concerned that the wrong side is being genocided. I don't think they're likely to be satisfied with just Israel stopping the offensive though, particularly given the cynical and indiscriminate nature of their piracy.
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Dec 20, 2023 11:58
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Kchama posted:Is it helping people? Like people just seem to be assuming that it'd a good thing, but what good has actually come from it? I'd give the credit for the British PM calling for an immediate ceasefire at least in part to Ansar Allah. Their tactics and the subsequent decision by BP to reroute, causing untold projected losses, certainly had to have played into this sudden change of position by Sunak.
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Dec 20, 2023 12:09
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Kchama posted:Is it helping people? Like people just seem to be assuming that it'd a good thing, but what good has actually come from it? It appears to have meant that there is more pressure put on creating a ceasefire. Not certainly ofc, but costing people money is a good way to encourage negotiation.
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Dec 20, 2023 12:13
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Kchama posted:Their just trying to justify their piracy. They don't give a poo poo about Gazans. How can you claim to know the motivations of these people with such certainty?
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Dec 20, 2023 12:29
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aBagorn posted:I'd give the credit for the British PM calling for an immediate ceasefire at least in part to Ansar Allah. Their tactics and the subsequent decision by BP to reroute, causing untold projected losses, certainly had to have played into this sudden change of position by Sunak. Malaysia just closed their ports to all ships with an Israeli flag. I doubt this happens if the Houthis didn't step up first. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/20/malaysia-bans-israeli-affiliated-and-israel-bound-ships-from-its-ports quote:Malaysia has banned all Israeli-flagged cargo ships from docking at its ports in what it said was a response to the war in Gaza, accusing Israel of violating international law through the “massacre and brutality against Palestinians”.
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Dec 20, 2023 12:54
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That's awesome
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Dec 20, 2023 12:59
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Frankly I'm very confused how this idea that Ansarallah are engaged in something as simple as piracy came about. They certainly aren't quiet about the blatant political goal they are engaged in! To say nothing of the sheer lunacy of the idea that getting into a pissing match with every regional power as well as freaking america is done with profit as the goal.
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Dec 20, 2023 13:11
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And havn't they only taken one container ship so far? Seems like a pretty effective way to make the West actually try and stop the genocide, gently caress with their pocket books.
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Dec 20, 2023 13:45
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aBagorn posted:I'd give the credit for the British PM calling for an immediate ceasefire at least in part to Ansar Allah. Their tactics and the subsequent decision by BP to reroute, causing untold projected losses, certainly had to have played into this sudden change of position by Sunak. Cameron's position is actually 'more nuanced'. https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/1736364658204737558 Cameron himself has always been fairly pro-Palestinian as far as Western politicians go, despite his very numerous faults, so I don't think there's really been a noticeable shift there.
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Dec 20, 2023 13:55
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.....ok I'll freely admit I haven't been paying attention to UK politics lately but I'm pretty sure the pig fucker isn't the prime Minister?
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Dec 20, 2023 13:58
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A big flaming stink posted:.....ok I'll freely admit I haven't been paying attention to UK politics lately but I'm pretty sure the pig fucker isn't the prime Minister? Hasn't been for, hmm, over seven years.
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Dec 20, 2023 14:06
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He was recently appointed foreign secretary so he represents the UK government's official line.
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Dec 20, 2023 14:18
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A big flaming stink posted:.....ok I'll freely admit I haven't been paying attention to UK politics lately but I'm pretty sure the pig fucker isn't the prime Minister? Sorry, I should have clarified. The current Tory government faces a lot of domestic challenges on the account of being pant-shittingly bad at the whole governing thing. To address this, the last Tory politician with any semblance of likeability was brought on board (through some not super regular procedures) as the foreign secretary. Apart from the reason above, part of why he was chosen for the job was that he also had some amount of goodwill and dare I say expertise when it comes to the I/P conflict. Cameron's messaging from day one was fairly consistent, and Sunak tries not to contradict it. https://www.reuters.com/world/too-many-civilians-killed-israel-hamas-conflict-uk-pm-says-2023-12-18/ quote:Sunak on Monday again said Britain believed Israel had the right to defend itself following the Hamas attack on southern Israel in October that triggered the conflict. So, again, unless I've missed something very recent, I don't think there was a huge shift in policy or rhetoric, especially not due to Houthis' attacks. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 14:32
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I can believe that the group whose slogan includes the lines "Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews" is concerned that the wrong side is being genocided. I don't think they're likely to be satisfied with just Israel stopping the offensive though, particularly given the cynical and indiscriminate nature of their piracy. The Houthis survived intact after a genocidal campaign waged by the Saudis against the Yemeni people backed to the hilt by the United States.
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Dec 20, 2023 14:45
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Sunak’s position hasn’t changed following the BP announcement; if was falsely reported in, iirc, Middle East Eye that he had called for a “permanent ceasefire”, then a false inference was drawn on Twitter that the BP announcement had caused this. He’d already been using the “sustainable” line for some time.
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Dec 20, 2023 14:58
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Groovelord Neato posted:The Houthis survived intact after a genocidal campaign waged by the Saudis against the Yemeni people backed to the hilt by the United States. Your response is accurate but seems irrelevant to the post being quoted. I think just like any political movement there are idealogues who are seriously horrified at the destruction of Gaza and only want to stand against it (and of course hating Israel and Jews isn't new for them), and there are cynics who see an opportunity to execute piracy with some international-ethical pretense and only want to seize it, and most are probably motivated in both ways. But this is just armchair speculating about people I don't know, whose language I don't speak, whose official policy is that I deserve to be cursed. I don't think it really matters what percentage have what motivation. If it puts any pressure on Israel to stop killing Palestinians, that's obviously worth its weight in gold. if it puts innocent people in danger because they're working on a ship that's tangentially connected to an Israeli man, or because they live in Yemen and are collectively punished for Houthi actions, that's bad. If it makes rich people less rich, life goes on. If it endangers the Houthi movement, that's a good thing to happen to anyone who organizes under the banner of "curse the Jews." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 15:25
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A big flaming stink posted:.....ok I'll freely admit I haven't been paying attention to UK politics lately but I'm pretty sure the pig fucker isn't the prime Minister? He's foreign secretary.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:28
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The idea that the Houthis are just cynical, opportunistic pirates requires a complete and total disregard of the events over the past two months and a complete lack of desire to understand them.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:35
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Your response is accurate but seems irrelevant to the post being quoted. I think the group surviving a genocide might find some solidarity with others and be in a position to help. They could've executed this "piracy" at any point but decided now was the time.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:I think the group surviving a genocide might find some solidarity with others and be in a position to help. They could've executed this "piracy" at any point but decided now was the time. There's probably maximum leverage by hitting at a time when people want as few problems to deal with as possible, no? There's some self-interest going on here.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:45
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Groovelord Neato posted:I think the group surviving a genocide might find some solidarity with others and be in a position to help. They could've executed this "piracy" at any point but decided now was the time. Again I am an Internet dude with no relevant experience here, but I am pretty sure that the idea that the Houthis only found solidarity with the Palestinians after 2015, when Yemen underwent its own genocide, is both contradicted by their history and off-course in what it assumes about human psychology. The Houthis have always been in solidarity with Palestine, they've been using the "death to America, death to Israel, curse the Jews" slogan since the American invasion of Iraq. They didn't need to undergo their own genocide to be outraged about Israeli atrocities to the point of ethnoreligious bigotry. If there is one thing we should learn from looking at Israel, having your nation undergo a genocide doesn't make people experience greater solidarity with others in similar crises. Like Art Spiegelman said, "unimaginable suffering doesn't make a person better; it just makes them suffer."
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Dec 20, 2023 16:04
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Civilized Fishbot posted:If there is one thing we should learn from looking at Israel, having your nation undergo a genocide doesn't make people experience greater solidarity with others in similar crises. Like Art Spiegelman said, "unimaginable suffering doesn't make a person better; it just makes them suffer." The Irish do.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:15
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hadji murad posted:The Irish do. That isn't the automatic result of the nation experiencing occupation, it's the result of really admirable political and cultural leadership in steering the way the atrocities are remembered. The way English occupation is remembered in Ireland functions to reinforce solidarity with other victims of occupation. The way the Holocaust is remembered in Israel functions to reinforce the apartheid state by reifying Jewish exceptionalism and distrust toward liberal democracy. Neither of these are automatic, they're projects of politicians and idealogues. "The Houthis found solidarity with Palestine because of the genocide in Yemen" is ahistorical - they were outraged by Israel long before 2015. And undergoing a genocide does not automatically produce solidarity with other genocide victims, it requires a whole project to steer the memory of the genocide in that direction. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 16:25
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hadji murad posted:The Irish do. They have whiskey, though.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:26
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I wonder if they felt the same same kind of solidarity with the Jews in Yemen. Or rather, the Jews who used to live in Yemen until the Houthis expelled them.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:27
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Debating the morality of the Houthis is, ultimately, a useful distraction from discussing what’s happening in Gaza.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:34
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Nucleic Acids posted:Debating the morality of the Houthis is, ultimately, a useful distraction from discussing what’s happening in Gaza. If we were in Congress, you'd be right, because there the words have some power, and what gets rhetorical attention corresponds to what gets the attention of the state and the public. This is an Internet web forum. Every debate we have will accomplish nothing productive for anyone. You don't have to worry about getting distracted because by being here we are already distracted.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:40
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Have the Houthis killed anybody? I expect the usuals would be screaming about it if they had. This is all looking a lot like the same hand-wringing over property damage that effective activism provokes.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:46
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The Houthi have been launching attacks against shipping for years now: https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-722979 https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2020/5/17/uk-flagged-tanker-repulses-pirate-attack-in-gulf-of-aden https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/3/4/saudi-coalition-foils-attack-on-oil-tanker-off-yemens-coast One could argue this is an escalation in response but reading about the history of the maritime attacks it seems like they were escalating before Israel decided to crush Gaza. I also don't think that it's doing much of anything in regard to pressuring the West or even that the USN has deployed great resources in response. The coalition sent a total of like 5 warships between all the countries, that's not even the equivalent of a single carrier group. The only nation really feeling the squeeze so far is Egypt given their loss of passage tax, but then they already oppose Israel's actions and probably don't have any more influence to wield anyway. Nucleic Acids posted:Debating the morality of the Houthis is, ultimately, a useful distraction from discussing what’s happening in Gaza. Why do people keep posting like the discussion in D&D drives global coverage or action on the issue? It's not a distraction, it's the more interesting topic to debate and discuss because there is real disagreement! No one here disagrees how atrocious Israel is behaving, and when there is disagreement about single events, they get discussed at length. Updates about the latest horrifying events that everyone agrees are crimes against humanity aren't going to get discussed the same way as an issue people have varied views on. moths posted:Have the Houthis killed anybody? I expect the usuals would be screaming about it if they had. They've taken hostages, which whatever your feelings on the tactic are, is certainly not just property damage.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:46
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So "no." There's no blood on their hands, and they're favorably influencing politics on a global scale. Is that not the most moral use of force out of anyone in this situation?
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Dec 20, 2023 17:02
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Civilized Fishbot posted:If we were in Congress, you'd be right, because there the words have some power, and what gets rhetorical attention corresponds to what gets the attention of the state and the public. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 17:06
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moths posted:So "no." It's simply luck that they haven't killed any crew yet, given they're launching anti ship missiles at civilian vessels. They also have kidnapped civilians which can hardly be described as a bloodless act.
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Dec 20, 2023 17:09
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Kagrenak posted:It's simply luck that they haven't killed any crew yet, given they're launching anti ship missiles at civilian vessels. They also have kidnapped civilians which can hardly be described as a bloodless act. These events, which are not occurring absent the context of geopolitics and history, could also be considered from the perspective of Israel and its western allies, having sown the wind through their decades long genocide of the Palestinians, are now facing the reaping the whirlwind. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 17:18
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Nucleic Acids posted:Debating the morality of the Houthis is, ultimately, a useful distraction from discussing what’s happening in Gaza. the straw hats are the only moral pirates and they support the Palestinian people
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Dec 20, 2023 17:19
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precious
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Nucleic Acids posted:These events, which are not occurring absent the context of geopolitics and history, could also be considered from the perspective of Israel and its western allies, having sown the wind through their decades long genocide of the Palestinians, are now facing the reaping the whirlwind. When I look at it that way, you're right, the random sailors of Norwegian and Japanese vessels are really just reaping what they sowed by doing their job delivering goods which are completely unrelated to Israel or their genocide. Civilians are indeed legitimate targets if their government has supported atrocities, or even looked the other way, thanks for showing me the light. Or maybe... the antisemitic islamist group isn't being that careful at all in targeting only those who are closely related to the conduct of the genocide? Maybe you don't need to carry water for them after all Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 17:46
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Kagrenak posted:When I look at it that way, you're right, the random sailors of Norwegian and Japanese vessels are really just reaping what they sowed by doing their job delivering goods which are completely unrelated to Israel or their genocide. Civilians are indeed legitimate targets if their government has supported atrocities, or even looked the other way, thanks for showing me the light. Israeli shipping is directly tied into the genocide, and putting pressure on non Israeli shipping can potentially lead to pressure for Israel to change its course of action. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 17:51
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