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Ensign Expendable posted:The best part of that poster is the term "rapid fire revolver" since the guy writing it definitely didn't learn any new Russian vocabulary since before the invention of the submachine gun. As someone who has fired a Nagant revolver my comment on it being rapid fire is: lol, lmao even.
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Dec 14, 2023 21:10
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Cyrano4747 posted:As someone who has fired a Nagant revolver my comment on it being rapid fire is: lol, lmao even. I assume they meant the leaflet called an SMG "rapid fire revolver" for lack of a better term
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Dec 14, 2023 22:17
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Xakura posted:I assume they meant the leaflet called an SMG "rapid fire revolver" for lack of a better term Right. The correct term for SMG in Russian was pistolet-pulemyot, or pistol-machinegun. Since the weapon was rare in pre-revolution and even pre-Winter War Russian & Soviet armies, the translator didn't know the word so they must have looked into contemporary Finnish term for LMG, "fast rifle" and then changed this into "fast revolver", not even "fast pistol" for some reason.
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Dec 14, 2023 23:17
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Here is a website on the Iraqi surrender leaflets mentioned up-thread.
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Dec 14, 2023 23:42
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Do soldiers get prizes for seizing intact equipment? I know in the age of sail grabbing an enemy ship got a pay out for the ship, if joe and his friends manage to seize an intact tank or some cannons do they get a pay out?
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Dec 14, 2023 23:58
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Nenonen posted:Right. The correct term for SMG in Russian was pistolet-pulemyot, or pistol-machinegun. Since the weapon was rare in pre-revolution and even pre-Winter War Russian & Soviet armies, the translator didn't know the word so they must have looked into contemporary Finnish term for LMG, "fast rifle" and then changed this into "fast revolver", not even "fast pistol" for some reason. Ahhhhh ok that makes sense.
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Dec 15, 2023 05:36
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Alchenar posted:And then there's the cannibalism. Christ that just reminds me of the book on Singapore I have thats all "this group of survivors was lost at sea for weeks" or whatever and they go through horrifying conditions and madness and cannibalism and everything else all to land right back in Malaya and get captured by the Japanese they attempted to flee from.
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Dec 15, 2023 06:11
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Cyrano4747 posted:If someone wanted to escape it would be as easy as waiting for a break in the traffic and making a run for it. Maybe some eager 18 year old who hasn't gotten a chance to shoot a German yet takes a shot at them, but more likely no one even notices. And this happened! I know more than a few people who's grandfathers return from the war tl;dr'd down to "he surrendered to the Allies, got processed as a POW for a bit, and then sneaked off one night and walked home." Especially early on when the POW enclosures were a lot more primitive - if they existed at all - this was pretty doable. That is pretty much exactly what happened with my grandfather, who was in the Wehrmacht at the time. As he told it, he'd deserted from the eastern front at the end of '44 and spent most of '45 trying to head westwards. At some point he was overtaken and captured by the Red Army, but at that point the provision for POWs was pretty much just sitting them down in some field while a handful of bored soldiers more or less kept an eye on them. It was so unstructured that at some point he basically just kinda got up and wandered off, afterwards managing to walk the rest of the way home.
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Dec 15, 2023 10:21
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POW discussions are an excellent excuse to post Spike Milligan's description of the attack on Dijbel Mahdi, April 9 1943, which he watched from his artillery observation post.quote:I got some water from Maunders, then dashed up to my remote control in time to pass fire orders. It was 13.59 hours. At 14.00 the barrage went over followed by the infantry attack. From the crest I watched the P.B.I. going forward, down the slopes of Djbel Mahdi, across the valley and up the slope opposite. And then, a couple of weeks later, they've moved on to Medjez-el-Bab and are much further forward than any heavy gun battery ever expected to be... quote:That morning Lt Beauman-Smythe is reccying our area for a better position (like Bexhill I tell him), when four Germans with hands aloft come out of a dugout. ‘Kamerad,’ the spokesman says. Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy skepticism about soldiers' war dits, but this one is definitely too good to check.
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Dec 15, 2023 10:21
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Greg12 posted:I enjoy that the Norwegians put the disarmed former combatants to work removing the landmines that they had planted back when they were armed combatants. Kriegsmarine POWs got put to work clearing naval mines around Kiel in '45-46. That command is where Doenitz's lawyer got plucked from during the Nuremberg trials.
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Dec 15, 2023 11:26
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US Foreign Policy posted:I guess thats where I breakdown on the mental picture from 'You're leading a dozen guys back to the rear' to 'The entire city of Hot Springs, Arkansas in the form of angry men just shwed up and need somewhere to go I think one thing that you’re neglecting is emotional state and morale. You seem to think here that the surrendering troops are fighting fit and angry. By the time you get to unit sized surrenders the units are either demoralized and uninterested in fighting for let’s call it ideological reasons (end of war Germany, either time, surrender of Baltic soldiers of the red army, etc), or they’re starving, cold/hot, tired, wet/dehydrated and also disinterested in or incapable of fighting. Or they’re out of munitions to keep fighting with. In any case they’re probably not that angry (the angry guys decided to hoof it or go out in a blaze of glory) and even if they get angry after surrendering they’re not really able to do much about it.
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Dec 15, 2023 12:41
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vuk83 posted:Also the Danish Not just a great movie, but the English title is also a great pun.
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Dec 15, 2023 13:43
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think one thing that you’re neglecting is emotional state and morale. You seem to think here that the surrendering troops are fighting fit and angry. By the time you get to unit sized surrenders the units are either demoralized and uninterested in fighting for let’s call it ideological reasons (end of war Germany, either time, surrender of Baltic soldiers of the red army, etc), or they’re starving, cold/hot, tired, wet/dehydrated and also disinterested in or incapable of fighting. Or they’re out of munitions to keep fighting with. In any case they’re probably not that angry (the angry guys decided to hoof it or go out in a blaze of glory) and even if they get angry after surrendering they’re not really able to do much about it. Also, you know that your conduct has a direct impact on your comrades who have been taken prisoner. If your nations prisoners get a reputation for being violent and attempting to escape at every turn you're increasing the chances you or your mates just get shot out of hand.
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Dec 15, 2023 15:34
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"Taking everyone's guns" is also probably Step Zero of becoming a prisoner and while soldiers without guns can certainly cause problems, it's difficult for them to Do War. Even if you leave them bayonets for housekeeping purposes.
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Dec 15, 2023 16:05
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Nessus posted:"Taking everyone's guns" is also probably Step Zero of becoming a prisoner and while soldiers without guns can certainly cause problems, it's difficult for them to Do War. Even if you leave them bayonets for housekeeping purposes. Even though we took the Iraqis weapons and crushed them there were a few people in my unit who tried to hang onto one as a souvenir. (Dumb jarheads are dumb jarheads, etc.) At least one nice AK was disassembled and stuffed into the air duct - the big orange hose assembly - on an AAV in the hopes that it could be retrieved when they got home and were reunited with their vehicle. Of course, the vehicles were sent back on MPS ships and went to a different port, so presumably some crewman in a different part of the country found a surprise at work one day.
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Dec 15, 2023 16:29
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Nenonen posted:Makes you wonder what a defecting tanker is going to do with 10k rubles Are you kidding? You can get three beers and a slice of pizza in Stockholm for that!
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Dec 15, 2023 16:39
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Cessna posted:Even though we took the Iraqis weapons and crushed them there were a few people in my unit who tried to hang onto one as a souvenir. (Dumb jarheads are dumb jarheads, etc.) At least one nice AK was disassembled and stuffed into the air duct - the big orange hose assembly - on an AAV in the hopes that it could be retrieved when they got home and were reunited with their vehicle. Of course, the vehicles were sent back on MPS ships and went to a different port, so presumably some crewman in a different part of the country found a surprise at work one day. I’m just imagining a nature documentary about marines hiding AKs for the winter, like squirrels.
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Dec 15, 2023 16:49
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Marine with their cheeks all puffed out from crayons for the winter holding the AK to their mouth, turning it in different directions.
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Dec 15, 2023 21:12
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MikeCrotch posted:Also, you know that your conduct has a direct impact on your comrades who have been taken prisoner. If your nations prisoners get a reputation for being violent and attempting to escape at every turn you're increasing the chances you or your mates just get shot out of hand. Another way to think of it is that if your city-sized contingent of guys couldn't break through the enemy forces in the area and get back to friendly lines starting from a prepared position and holding guns, vehicles, and ammunition, how well do you think they're going to do after leaving their positions and stockpiled supplies, surrendering all of their communication gear, all heavy weapons, most of their personal weapons, all fighting vehicles, and all or most transport vehicles, especially since friendly lines have probably moved even further back than they were when you surrendered.
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Dec 15, 2023 21:18
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Xiahou Dun posted:I’m just imagining a nature documentary about marines hiding AKs for the winter, like squirrels. Sound. https://i.imgur.com/dvQcxZ2.mp4
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Dec 15, 2023 21:42
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Defenestrategy posted:Do soldiers get prizes for seizing intact equipment? I know in the age of sail grabbing an enemy ship got a pay out for the ship, if joe and his friends manage to seize an intact tank or some cannons do they get a pay out? Not cash prizes, but coming back with a tank would get you an Order of Glory in the Red Army. I read about a guy who got an Order of the Red Star by siphoning gas from knocked out Panthers so his unit could get their repair trucks running again and fix some T-34s as well. Many award orders list captured equipment as a part of the accomplishments.
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Dec 16, 2023 00:02
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Ensign Expendable posted:Not cash prizes, but coming back with a tank would get you an Order of Glory in the Red Army. I read about a guy who got an Order of the Red Star by siphoning gas from knocked out Panthers so his unit could get their repair trucks running again and fix some T-34s as well. Many award orders list captured equipment as a part of the accomplishments. There's a virgin/chat meme to be made about German tankers being unable to conduct basic offensive operations for lack of gas and Soviet tankers drinking the (petroleum) blood of their fallen enemies to continue the march on Berlin.
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Dec 16, 2023 01:13
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That was radar juice
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Dec 16, 2023 01:26
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FMguru posted:As a naval officer I abhor the implication that the Royal Navy is a haven for cannibalism. It is well known that we now have the problem relatively under control, and that it is the R.A.F. who now suffer the largest casualties in this area. And what do you think the Argylls ate in Aden? Arabs? Yours etc. Captain B. J. Smethwick in a white wine sauce with shallots, mushrooms and garlic Posts you can hear
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Dec 16, 2023 22:43
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Fortunately you don't need to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deoNAOfkXxc
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Dec 16, 2023 23:58
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MikeCrotch posted:Also, you know that your conduct has a direct impact on your comrades who have been taken prisoner. If your nations prisoners get a reputation for being violent and attempting to escape at every turn you're increasing the chances you or your mates just get shot out of hand. I did like Barthas' anecdote about walking into a German bunker and finding 50 Germans with their hands in the air next to a dead officer who'd been hit in the head with a shovel. The other officer managed to shoot Barthas' captain though during the surrender. (They both survived the incident IIRC)
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Dec 17, 2023 03:03
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In Meeting the Enemy, a German officer describes how after two days lost in North Africa without food or water, he and his friend were ready to either rejoin the Germans or surrender to the British, whatever came first. He approached a small British camp at night with his hands up, and walked all the way up to their fire without being noticed. He cleared his throat to get their attention, and one of the Brits scrambled for a rifle so they could "capture" him.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:05
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(cross-post from the cold war thread in TFR since I figured this thread might enjoy this sort of nerdery too)TheFluff posted:Here's a fun holiday watch: the Swedish tank museum Arsenalen, under its director Stefan Karlsson, lifts the power pack out of one of its strv 103's to replace a starter motor on the piston engine: TheFluff fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 06:45
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Today I learned about cycloramas, which could be considered an early form of VR. They're giant paintings (the one in the link is roughly 40 feet by 400 feet) that were painted to be hung in a dome where people would look at them from an observation platform in the center, giving a view like you're in the middle of a frozen scene of action. The perspective was done to fit the expected shape of the room, and the floor would often have some shrubbery, rocks, tents, guns, and mannequin bodies near the edges to enhance the 3d effect. Battle scenes were a popular subject, and they came into vogue in the US at the right time for a lot of Civil war battle scenes. The particular one that came up is interesting for US military history, because it depicted what was a Union victory originally, then was modified first to depict the Confederates more gallantly, then to present the fight as a confederate victory, then to use the modern 'Confederate Flag' instead of historically correct ones, and eventually even to tie-in with Gone With the Wind (they made one of the 'body on the ground' mannequins look like Rhett Butler). It's now been restored to its original state and has an exhibit on the history of how it was modified over time. I hadn't seen this in any of the Milhist thread versions (though I haven't read all of the old ones), and I thought people here would find it interesting. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/atlanta-famed-cyclorama-tell-truth-civil-war-once-again-180970715/
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Dec 20, 2023 20:27
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Lmao never noticed this detail in this illustration of the conquest of Egypt by Cambyses II (AKA "𐎣𐎲𐎢𐎪𐎡𐎹 da Pimp"). HURRY UP PRIVATE FIROUZ! WE NEED MORE KITTENS AND WE NEED THEM PRONTO! MOVE! MOVE! MOVE!
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Dec 21, 2023 06:00
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Book of Song posted:For some time now, although the King of Lâm Ấp, Phạm Dươngmại, had been presenting tribute to Song, he had not ceased attacking or raiding Song territory, while the tribute he did send was meager and crude. Emperor Wen thus sent the Inspector of Jiaozhou, Tan Hezhi, to campaign against him.
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Dec 21, 2023 08:39
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The elephants were going to do that anyway, on account of being elephants. Not good battle animals.
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Dec 21, 2023 08:44
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The elephant-populated parts of India are wretched horse country because they're too wet and the horses' hooves rot out from under them when you try to maintain sizable herds. They still bought horses from foreign importers and used them, because horses are wildly better war animals than elephants.
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Dec 21, 2023 08:47
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Funny how into them the Diadochi were though.
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Dec 21, 2023 09:29
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Punkin Spunkin posted:Funny how into them the Diadochi were though. Funnily, one of the things elephants were great at is scaring horses, especially horses that were unfamiliar with them. They had some shock value but, for example, Ptolemy's infantry defeated and captured them without too much trouble at Gaza.
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Dec 21, 2023 09:33
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First off thank you for everyone's spectacular replies. The photos of the masses of surrendered Germans both illustrates my confusion but kind of answers it nicely. I think I should say movies probably messed me up in thinking POWs are soldiers eager to get out and go back to War. As opposed to 18-20 year olds who are exhausted, miserable, and would like to do anything other than More War. I blame movies showing soldiers as in their mid 30's and full of patriotic angst.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:45
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US Foreign Policy posted:First off thank you for everyone's spectacular replies. The photos of the masses of surrendered Germans both illustrates my confusion but kind of answers it nicely. One thing to note is that it depends a LOT on the soldier. Officers tend to be a bit more gung-ho about escape, for example. There's lots written about it being the duty of an officer to try and escape and therefore tie up enemy resources guarding your annoying rear end. I don't have anything definitive to point at, but if you just flip through accounts of POW escapes in WW2 it's almost always officers, whether we're talking Germans or Americans/Brits. I'll note that here I'm talking about serious escape attempts, not poo poo like German POWs in Nebraska sneaking under the barbed wire, walking to the nearest bar, and then calling the camp for a pick up and making the guards pay their tabs. But yeah, all of that is the romantic exception to the rule. poo poo like The Great Escape did happen, but it wasn't the norm.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:56
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US Foreign Policy posted:First off thank you for everyone's spectacular replies. The photos of the masses of surrendered Germans both illustrates my confusion but kind of answers it nicely. Movies dont generally show the massed surrenders you asked about initially. They show small groups of motivated people, aircrew and similar, who dont feel the battle, or the war, is lost.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:07
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wiegieman posted:The elephant-populated parts of India are wretched horse country because they're too wet and the horses' hooves rot out from under them when you try to maintain sizable herds. They still bought horses from foreign importers and used them, because horses are wildly better war animals than elephants. This was a mild mind-blown moment for me when I learned it (in The Gunpowder Age iirc), coming from how strategy games portray elephants. I think it was meant to be the same in Southeast Asia. Horses were always more desirable even if some societies considered elephants prestigious; in the places that elephants had primacy, it's just that horses straight up had to be continually imported.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:46
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I imagine you could have probably done selective breeding for a more tractable war elephant, but elephant generations are comparable to human generations so, uh, at best it would have been like that story about the forest that they called in to some Scandavian country. "OK, the trees are done, all the mainmasts u need. Come pick them up."
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Dec 21, 2023 16:25
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