Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

Tbh a lot of the Old Testament can be a bit rough--dry, confusing, or hard to follow. Not that the New Testament is necessarily easy reading but all the Gospels and Letters are more or less written for you, the reader, as the intended audience. If that makes sense? There are certainly more intelligent ways to frame this than I'm doing.

There are different purposes and target audiences for various books and the books in the New are generally more approachable

# ? Dec 20, 2023 19:09

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 13:31

Chinook: Apr 11, 2006; SHODAI

Pellisworth posted:

There are different purposes and target audiences for various books and the books in the New are generally more approachable

Yeah, I think considering the target audience for the old testament (or any number of scriptures) helps with some of the concerns that come up. What were these people able to respond to? How might the truth be couched in a way that they can accept it and work with it?

The way that got done might make some of the specific details less palatable for a different audience.

# ? Dec 20, 2023 19:19

Nuclear Pizza: Feb 25, 2006

Prurient Squid posted:

I'm going to try to be patient and curious with the books of the Bible that appear to me to be problematic. If I'm going to truly be honest with myself I don't really understand what's being said a lot of the time. After I finish my full readthrough I can check back in with some of the material that I found challenging and see how it's been dealt with by scholars.

The Church Fathers have written extensively on the books of the Bible. They will stand you in good stead.

# ? Dec 20, 2023 22:45

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Chinook posted:

Yeah, I think considering the target audience for the old testament (or any number of scriptures) helps with some of the concerns that come up. What were these people able to respond to? How might the truth be couched in a way that they can accept it and work with it?

The way that got done might make some of the specific details less palatable for a different audience.

This is super important. I've talked about this before but I'm phoneposting so gently caress it can't find it so typing it again.

There's a lot of rules in the OT that seem monstrous by our standards, but when you dig into the passages, it becomes clear that although they are monstrous if applied today, they were quite progressive for the time.

The most infamous example is how the OT is a-ok with going to war, capturing women, and taking them home as wives. A literal war crime today. However, what the law does is give the woman an official place in the man's household and oblige the man to do certain things to ensure her well-being. At the time that was handed down, these women had no standing and no rights, and were treated horribly even by the standards of the time.

A lot of the rules are like this. They don't go as far as any modern person knows they should but they were a significant improvement for the time.

Also, a lot of the purity and purification rules and rituals need to be understood in light of a culture that doesn't have germ theory. There's a bunch that with our modern scientific understanding we see as silly but at a time when none of that was understood, they were doing the best they could.

# ? Dec 20, 2023 23:02

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Nuclear Pizza posted:

The Church Fathers have written extensively on the books of the Bible. They will stand you in good stead.

It might even be a good idea to read it alongside commentary etc. by the church fathers instead of doing solo sola scriptura. Some priests may specifically warn you about this. There are highly differing views on this by denomination, of course.

# ? Dec 20, 2023 23:12

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

Yeah, for a contrasting view, I was raised and still practice in an environment that's somewhat suspicious of a printed Bible with annotations, and does not specifically recognize the Church Fathers.

My personal approach is liberalized from each of these, read the book and accompany it with context, but pick whoever you'd like to provide that context.

# ? Dec 20, 2023 23:15

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

Azathoth posted:

This is super important. I've talked about this before but I'm phoneposting so gently caress it can't find it so typing it again.

There's a lot of rules in the OT that seem monstrous by our standards, but when you dig into the passages, it becomes clear that although they are monstrous if applied today, they were quite progressive for the time.

The most infamous example is how the OT is a-ok with going to war, capturing women, and taking them home as wives. A literal war crime today. However, what the law does is give the woman an official place in the man's household and oblige the man to do certain things to ensure her well-being. At the time that was handed down, these women had no standing and no rights, and were treated horribly even by the standards of the time.

A lot of the rules are like this. They don't go as far as any modern person knows they should but they were a significant improvement for the time.

Also, a lot of the purity and purification rules and rituals need to be understood in light of a culture that doesn't have germ theory. There's a bunch that with our modern scientific understanding we see as silly but at a time when none of that was understood, they were doing the best they could.

Yeah, that's specifically why I called out literalists, because a fair number of them seem to think those tribal social rules should still be applied today.

# ? Dec 21, 2023 00:26

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Liquid Communism posted:

Yeah, that's specifically why I called out literalists, because a fair number of them seem to think those tribal social rules should still be applied today.

Yeah? They keep kosher?

# ? Dec 21, 2023 02:24

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

I mean obviously they pick and choose. The literalism is typically bullshit.

# ? Dec 21, 2023 02:26

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Ohtori Akio posted:

I mean obviously they pick and choose. The literalism is typically bullshit.

Oh I know, but now I'm wondering if any of these guys DO try to keep some semblance of kosher, lol

# ? Dec 21, 2023 02:27

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

Nessus posted:

Oh I know, but now I'm wondering if any of these guys DO try to keep some semblance of kosher, lol

There are some fringe Christian movements that attempt this yeah. From one end, Jewish people who convert to Christianity often want to keep major cultural trappings of Jewish identity; that's how Messianic congregations work to an extent. From the other, you have Protestant sects who reject major elements of Pauline and mainstream theology and see themselves very firmly as a continuation of Torah religion.

It's weird stuff.

# ? Dec 21, 2023 02:31

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

A Year of Biblical Womanhood by Rachel Held Evans covers what it would actually look like (spoiler alert: it's pretty nuts)

# ? Dec 21, 2023 02:45

Civilized Fishbot: Apr 3, 2011

Liquid Communism posted:

Yeah, that's specifically why I called out literalists, because a fair number of them seem to think those tribal social rules should still be applied today.

The idea that the laws laid out in the Torah are beautiful and worth applying today is also core to Orthodox and Conservative Judaism.

It's been frustrating to see the past 2 pages of discussion along the lines that my religion's holy scripture sucks compared to Christianity's. But I get it - they're older books from a culture more distant from that of the modern West. I suggest that the solution to culture shock is to more deeply immerse yourself in that culture and better understand its traditions and manners of expression - that is to say, yes read the Church Fathers they're very wise and interesting, but also read Jewish commentaries to understand how people can find joy and value not just in superseding these laws but even in following them.

Sefaria.com is an amazing repository for Jewish texts - it's heavily interlinked so you can open any part of one text and find where that verse or paragraph is referenced in any other text. For example, if you go to the page for Deuteronomy 21:18 and open "related texts" you can see 134 commentaries and 12 links to the Talmud. You can explore all day! One of the Talmud links will take you to Sanhedrin 68b, which starts a multi-page argument ending in the conclusion that the law is 100% binding but also has no possible situation where it could arise because of other principles embedded in Jewish law, and the law exists in order to disturb you into studying Torah. '

Does this reflect the actual intent with which the Deuteronomist composed the verse, probably not, but it shows how these passages can be engaged in a way that's both spiritually valuable and sane in its real-world conclusions, without having to say "yeah this is savage but later religious revelations made it inert anyway."

# ? Dec 21, 2023 02:55

Ohtori Akio: Jul 15, 2022

In the context of a Christianity that adheres to Paul's ideas at all, full and literal application of the Torah writings is very specifically not necessary, and that is the context in which literalism is being criticized here. Those same Christian literalists would also evangelize observant Orthodox Jews, because the point isn't reverence for Torah, it is a particular movement of social reaction and conservative identity.

# ? Dec 21, 2023 03:39

NomChompsky: Sep 17, 2008

mawarannahr posted:

It might even be a good idea to read it alongside commentary etc. by the church fathers instead of doing solo sola scriptura. Some priests may specifically warn you about this. There are highly differing views on this by denomination, of course.

This is good advice, every time I read a book in the bible I immediately read the introductory essays in The Oxford Study Bible to get the historical perspective, timeframe, and broader context as well as generally accepted scholarly views on it.

# ? Dec 21, 2023 04:06

Prurient Squid: Jul 21, 2008; Tiddy cat Buddha improving your day.

I often wondered how Jews cope with having to follow the 613 Mitzvot. Then I actually read them. One of them is "don't eat worms".

# ? Dec 21, 2023 09:12

Prurient Squid: Jul 21, 2008; Tiddy cat Buddha improving your day.

I have been posting about the five books of moses in a very blunt way without any attempt at tact. I see now that this is probably uncomfortable for Jewish readers and I'm teachable on this point. I'm willing to take accountability and acknowledge that I should treat the text with greater nuance.

# ? Dec 21, 2023 09:26

Civilized Fishbot: Apr 3, 2011