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Current day native americans are caught in a weird struggle of how much in this world they even really have a "claim" to. Many live on, or otherwise have some kind of stake in, Reservations which are weird as institutions, and have an uncertain amount of control over the land that they ostensibly own, often having their legal ownership and ostensible sovereignty overridden or infringed upon. It is eternally negotiable whether they will be stripped of even what little they have, or whether they can assert some kind of claim to something that they hold culturally valuable, and there are very real material consequences to the consequences of any of those negotiations on top of whatever ostensible religious or cultural heritage they are protecting. And for things like human remains being reclaimed, often they are much more recent and more documented individuals so there's more direct respect to the deceased in question. Which is worlds apart from out in Europe, people who live just like the rest of the population with no different legal status or property at stake, making up new interpretations of ancient societies irrespective of the actual scholarship on the subject, and laying claim to cultural heritage that they don't really have a greater connection to compared to others. I don't think that there's been all that much about native groups trying to lay claim to the ruins of the Mississippian mound-builders who to all evidence died out long before European contact.
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Dec 18, 2023 23:10
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Yeah SlothfulCobra has it pretty good. There are very real and impactful legal and material issues at play that impact Native American groups basically whenever any archaeological work is done in the US. cheetah7071 posted:it becomes moral the very second they pass out of living memory This is difficult for me to parse. What do we mean by moral? Whose morals? Whose living memory? How are you defining living memory? Edit: What exactly are you doing? Is it infrastructure? Is the infrastructure helping the descendant community? Is the descendant community even aware that you are doing the project? Etc etc Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 01:31
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Kill everyone who knew about the grave other than you, bing bong so simple
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Dec 20, 2023 01:37
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Grave excavation and interpretation has an unpleasant history in Europe also and is heavily implicated in a bunch of 19th-20th century race science type stuff. Germanic skulls look like this, but Slav skulls look like this. I get that neo druids are largely idiots and easy to pick on, but tbh I think it is better to be ambivalent about the whole practice. Also to let the dead lie if somebody cares about them, whoever they are or whatever their claimed connection to the dead. Digging up dead people is a weird thing to do. It can be extremely informative, but it’s definitely weird.
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Dec 20, 2023 02:49
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If you didn't want to be dug up you should've stayed alive.
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Dec 20, 2023 02:52
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Grand Fromage posted:If you didn't want to be dug up you should've stayed alive.
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Dec 20, 2023 02:55
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skasion posted:Grave excavation and interpretation has an unpleasant history in Europe also and is heavily implicated in a bunch of 19th-20th century race science type stuff. Germanic skulls look like this, but Slav skulls look like this. I get that neo druids are largely idiots and easy to pick on, but tbh I think it is better to be ambivalent about the whole practice. Also to let the dead lie if somebody cares about them, whoever they are or whatever their claimed connection to the dead. Digging up dead people is a weird thing to do. It can be extremely informative, but it’s definitely weird. Better evacuate every major city on the planet then. They’re all built on an ancient human burial ground and you might offend the genius loci of Rome. Byblos, you’ve been warned.
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Dec 20, 2023 08:59
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Benagain posted:Kill everyone who knew about the grave other than you, bing bong so simple thats what genghis khan apparently did and it worked great
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Dec 20, 2023 09:59
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Call that the long Khan
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Dec 20, 2023 14:39
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bob dobbs is dead posted:thats what genghis khan apparently did and it worked great New History of Yuan posted:Later on, the Lord of Western Xia (Li Xian) sent up a petition begging leave to surrender; he presented as tribute golden Buddhas, young boys and girls, camels and horses, and golden and silver wares, all according to the Nine Nines tradition. The Emperor (Chinggis Khan) assented, granting the Lord of Western Xia the name of [Shidou'erhu], which means "speaker of truth". The Lord of Western Xia asked for an additional month before coming to appear at court, and Chinggis sent [Tuolunche'erbi] to reassure and instruct him. By this time, the Emperor was already so indisposed that he no longer appeared in public, and he secretly instructed those who were with him, "After I die, do not announce the mourning right away; wait until the Lord of Western Xia arrives and then kill him."
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Dec 20, 2023 16:00
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bob dobbs is dead posted:thats what genghis khan apparently did and it worked great It's probably hard to kill the people who know where they buried you when you're dead and in a box in the ground, unless he somehow set up some remote kill-switch on a time delay (unlikely) or was perhaps some kind of vampire (possible?).
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Dec 20, 2023 18:01
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Mad Hamish posted:It's probably hard to kill the people who know where they buried you when you're dead and in a box in the ground, unless he somehow set up some remote kill-switch on a time delay (unlikely) or was perhaps some kind of vampire (possible?).
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Dec 20, 2023 18:23
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Nessus posted:I assume he trusted his family, which seems to have been born out The man had like 400 kids and all of them had 400 kids. Word would've gotten out. Probably only his closest friends and advisors knew and were in charge of killing anyone else who knew.
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Dec 20, 2023 20:28
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bob dobbs is dead posted:thats what genghis khan apparently did and it worked great Supposedly he was buried in a riverbed, like Alaric I.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:28
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we have no idea where he was buried. it worked great might be by a holy mountain, might be in a riverbed, we dont know poo poo
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Dec 20, 2023 21:33
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Better to just pull a Timur and leave a cool tomb that's hella cursed
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Dec 20, 2023 21:52
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Sounds like he was buried near a tree, on the one hand that's probably notable in that part of the world, on the other hand it has been a millenium and I believe trees do eventually go bad.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:04
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PittTheElder posted:Better to just pull a Timur and leave a cool tomb that's hella cursed We can even actually do that now. Just scatter plutonium everywhere. Any future archaeologists than dig up your tomb will die mysteriously, as will any collectors who own one of your artifacts. The only way to stop the deaths is to put everything back. Edit: as a bonus your corpse will be perfectly preserved and undecayed. The Lone Badger fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 22:14
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The actual burial part of the tomb with the terracotta soldiers is still unexcavated cause it's full of mercury
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Dec 20, 2023 22:16
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cheetah7071 posted:The actual burial part of the tomb with the terracotta soldiers is still unexcavated cause it's full of mercury It's China, everything's full of mercury. It's not wanting to destroy the tomb during the excavation. Probably a bit of the Imperial Household Agency style obstruction too, what if the map that's supposed to be in there doesn't have Taiwan on it?
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Dec 20, 2023 22:19
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Grand Fromage posted:It's China, everything's full of mercury. It's not wanting to destroy the tomb during the excavation. Probably a bit of the Imperial Household Agency style obstruction too, what if the map that's supposed to be in there doesn't have Taiwan on it? Just draw it in if it’s that important to you.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:33
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Crab Dad posted:Just draw it in if it’s that important to you. 
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Dec 20, 2023 22:40
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The version I heard had Ghenghis Khan buried somewhere in the steppes, and then a thousand horsemen rode over the site of the grave to stir up the dirt and make it impossible to tell where the excavation had been.
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Dec 21, 2023 04:53
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Maybe I should go track down the linguistics thread, but how is it that our modern day renderings of old Persian names (thinking Xerxes and Cambyses mostly, Cyrus is at least in the ballpark if you know the C is supposed to be /k/, Darius also not terrible) are so off the mark to their contemporary pronunciations? Were they closer in the contemporary forms of Greek? Is there some intermediate language (Aramaic?) where a transliteration game of telephone is happening? E: also god drat it bothers me that English gets all those soft-c's in there. For whatever reason it bothers me most that nearly every time an Anglophone says Cilicia it's the garbage pronunciation (si-lish-uh) and not Kilikia, the form preserved in half a dozen extant languages, including that of the people who live there right now. God drat we suck at pronouncing things. Does that happen in other West European languages too or just in English? PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 07:22
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We have altered the pronunciation. Pray we do not alter it further.
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Dec 21, 2023 08:24
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It's not just English. In Danish Ceasar gets pronounced Cæsar, with the same vowel sound used in words like æble (apple) or kvæde (quince - or compose, as in to compose a song). At least I've yet to hear anyone pronounce it Ssipio Afrisanus.
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Dec 21, 2023 13:49
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I also hate soft C fellow goon. I annoy my family constantly by pronouncing soft Cs as hard Cs
euphronius fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 14:02
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The soft C thing is general Romance thing I think. In Spanish you say César which exhibits the same tendency. Greeks (and through them Persians, Arabs, Turks etc) kept the hard C. The Germans too, which is kind of a weird outlier
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Dec 21, 2023 14:17
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The idea of going to Little Kaisers for dinner is giving me a nice little chuckle.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:23
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Tulip posted:The idea of going to Little Kaisers for dinner is giving me a nice little chuckle. Pitsa pitsa
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Dec 21, 2023 14:27
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With Latin pronunciation it's also a kind of an academic rivalry thing because why wouldn't it be. I learned to always pronounce C as K "as Cicero would've pronounced it  " while people in another university with a more medievalist/Catholic bent may be taught the softer Church Latin C.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:51
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I just pronounce C as ⟨ħ⟩, nobody never argues with me about it
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Dec 21, 2023 15:09
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skasion posted:The soft C thing is general Romance thing I think. In Spanish you say César which exhibits the same tendency. Greeks (and through them Persians, Arabs, Turks etc) kept the hard C. The Germans too, which is kind of a weird outlier Probably because C is a Latin letter and K is a Greek letter.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:27
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So it’s Kick-ero?
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Dec 21, 2023 16:17
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The I is long so like Keek-eh-ro with emphasis on the first syllable
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Dec 21, 2023 16:26
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i pronounce it in the normal way: “commander-in-chief erotic”
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Dec 21, 2023 16:30
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Just cut out the middleman and call him Chickpea.
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Dec 21, 2023 16:57
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FreudianSlippers posted:Just cut out the middleman and call him Chickpea. No, that's cicer. Cicero would be something like Chickpea Guy.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:16
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Zopotantor posted:No, that's cicer. Cicero would be something like Chickpea Guy.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:23
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PittTheElder posted:Maybe I should go track down the linguistics thread, but how is it that our modern day renderings of old Persian names (thinking Xerxes and Cambyses mostly, Cyrus is at least in the ballpark if you know the C is supposed to be /k/, Darius also not terrible) are so off the mark to their contemporary pronunciations? Were they closer in the contemporary forms of Greek? Is there some intermediate language (Aramaic?) where a transliteration game of telephone is happening? Even if you try very hard, it's tough to really accurately preserve the pronunciation of foreign names without distorting them at least a bit, because your tongue just isn't used to making those sounds or putting particular sounds next to each other. To do it consistently takes practice and focus, and for the most part that just hasn't been enough of a priority for people to put in that kind of effort. It's pretty common to even just outright "translate" names into your native language, like when we talk about "Tsar Alexander" or "Frederick the Great". Two thousand years of people badly pronouncing bad pronunciations of foreign names (and having to stick to those bad pronunciations so people will know who they're talking about) and you can wind up pretty far afield.
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