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Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice

Please do not doxx me like that.

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Al!
Apr 2, 2010

:coolspot::coolspot::coolspot::coolspot::coolspot:

man after man

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

Hatebag posted:

les budgets terribles?!

in the mid 90s the project finally bore fruit, creating a new perfect soldier for a new age of war. they were grifting snake, lowest bidder snake and vaporware snake

mawarannahr
May 21, 2019

Commerce Department Announces Industrial Base Survey of American Semiconductor Supply Chain

www.commerce.gov posted:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Thursday, December 21, 2023

Commerce takes action to bolster the U.S. semiconductor supply chain and protect U.S. national security

Today, the U.S. Department of Commerce announced it will launch a new survey in January 2024 that will serve as a foundation for continued analysis of the capabilities and challenges of the broader U.S. semiconductor supply chain and national defense industrial base. The intent of the survey is to identify how U.S. companies are sourcing current-generation and mature-node semiconductors, also known as legacy chips. This analysis will inform U.S. policy to bolster the semiconductor supply chain, promote a level playing field for legacy chip production, and reduce national security risks posed by the People’s Republic of China (PRC).

“Legacy chips are essential to supporting critical U.S. industries, like telecommunications, automotive and the defense industrial base. Addressing non-market actions by foreign governments that threaten the U.S. legacy chip supply chain is a matter of national security,”said Secretary Gina Raimondo. “Over the last few years, we’ve seen potential signs of concerning practices from the PRC to expand their firms’ legacy chip production and make it harder for U.S. companies to compete. To get ahead of these concerns, the Department of Commerce is taking proactive measures to assess the U.S. semiconductor supply chain by collecting data from U.S. companies on the sourcing of their legacy chips. Government alone cannot create and sustain a robust supply chain – we need industry at the table. This survey will empower the Department with the data we need to inform our next steps in building strong, diverse, and resilient semiconductor supply chains.”

The Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) within Commerce will launch the survey, which focuses on the use and sourcing of PRC-manufactured legacy chips in the supply chains of critical U.S. industries. The survey is a response to findings in a Congressionally-mandated report also released this week, which assesses the capabilities of the U.S. microelectronics industrial base to support U.S. national defense. That report was prepared pursuant to Section 9904 of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year (FY) 2021.

Companies headquartered in the U.S. account for approximately half of global semiconductor revenue but face intense competition supported by increasing subsidies from foreign governments. The 9904 report recommends that the United States promotes a level playing field for semiconductor manufacturing in the United States through support for domestic fabrication, assembly, test, and package capabilities, continued protection of U.S. technology through export controls, and further assessment of potential non-market behavior. BIS completed the data collection in May 2023 and developed the 9904 report and recommendations in coordination with the CHIPS Program Office.The full study directed under Section 9904 is available on BIS’s website.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=yoYZf-lBF_U

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Also I dunno what we're talking about here with the Bradley being "retired from active service." BAE just started delivering rebuilt M2 and M3A4s in the last couple years and there are still a couple thousand in service. They keep trying to replace them with other poo poo but the other poo poo ends up being worse and getting cancelled (hello GCV program).

Now they're doing this poo poo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM30_Mechanized_Infantry_Combat_Vehicle

optionally manned fighting vehicle lomarf

"optionally manned" is the biggest loving grift yet

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020
Kojima can't come up with weapon projects as imaginative as the F35 and LCS.

Hatebag
Jun 17, 2008


Cerebral Bore posted:

in the mid 90s the project finally bore fruit, creating a new perfect soldier for a new age of war. they were grifting snake, lowest bidder snake and vaporware snake

super boondoggle method!?

poisonpill
Nov 8, 2009

The only way to get huge fast is to insult a passing witch and hope she curses you with Beast-strength.


Why is every branch so reticent to move to unmanned stuff? Like drones, robots, etc.? It seems like trying to make it so that it could either have a crew or be empty will get you the worst of both worlds and please don’t just say grift

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

poisonpill posted:

Why is every branch so reticent to move to unmanned stuff? Like drones, robots, etc.? It seems like trying to make it so that it could either have a crew or be empty will get you the worst of both worlds and please don’t just say grift

latency is still an unsolved problem

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

poisonpill posted:

Why is every branch so reticent to move to unmanned stuff? Like drones, robots, etc.? It seems like trying to make it so that it could either have a crew or be empty will get you the worst of both worlds and please don’t just say grift

the worst of both worlds in terms of cost and combat performance but the BEST of both worlds in terms of profitability and maintaining the status quo of Western military doctrine and force composition which pleases entrenched politicians and military leaders' sensibilities

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Just imagine a room full of mid-level officers, procurement officials, and analysts looking at the Ukraine war and going "looks like drones are the future"

then the most senior guy in the room who is probably (depending on branch) an ex-armor, surface warfare, naval aviator, or tactical fighter pilot speaks up:

"alright flunkies, pull up the brief for the next IFV/tank/fighter jet/bomber/warship procurement program. scroll to the bottom. insert the following: 'also it's a drone.'"

and then everyone nods and goes "great plan sir, very innovative."

and if there's already a guy in the room from lockheed or bae or whatever at this point they've popped a full chub under the conference table

uber_stoat
Jan 21, 2001



Pillbug

it's fun watching the government stirring like a drunken sleeping giant, hangover head pounding, slowly realizing just how hosed it is.

Retromancer
Aug 21, 2007

Every time I see Goatse, I think of Maureen. That's the last thing I saw. Before I blacked out. The sight of that man's anus.

"Son, you're going to be a super soldier after we inject you with the genes of America's greatest soldier, Michael Flynn."

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

Hatebag posted:

super boondoggle method!?

a revolutionary new nuclear weapons launch platform. when deployed it can fire an atomic warhead from any terrain at any target in the world within a mere 240 hours as long as it isn't raining anywhere in its flight path and as long as the maintenance crew remembered to oil all 2468 proprietary actuators with a special blend of lubricants, rosewater and lemur piss

my god... colonel, how long do we have to stop them?

time is running out. we expect them to have a 1:50 scale mock-up ready as early as 2035

2035?!?

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice

poisonpill posted:

Why is every branch so reticent to move to unmanned stuff? Like drones, robots, etc.? It seems like trying to make it so that it could either have a crew or be empty will get you the worst of both worlds and please don’t just say grift

I don’t think they are, there seems to be a huge amount of unmanned stuff already deployed and probably a bunch in development that we don’t know about yet. It just hasn’t started showing up in action movies much yet so it isn’t in the public consciousness for the most part.

Red Metal
Oct 23, 2012

Let me tell you about Homestuck

Fun Shoe

stephenthinkpad posted:

Kojima can't come up with weapon projects as imaginative as the F35 and LCS.

kojima's flaw was thinking the people building weapons actually wanted to make something other than money

Hatebag
Jun 17, 2008


Cerebral Bore posted:

a revolutionary new nuclear weapons launch platform. when deployed it can fire an atomic warhead from any terrain at any target in the world within a mere 240 hours as long as it isn't raining anywhere in its flight path and as long as the maintenance crew remembered to oil all 2468 proprietary actuators with a special blend of lubricants, rosewater and lemur piss

my god... colonel, how long do we have to stop them?

time is running out. we expect them to have a 1:50 scale mock-up ready as early as 2035

2035?!?


the dramatic conclusion: a shirtless fistfight on top of a bunch of usb drives containing powerpoint presentations about metal gear

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

You can read the writing on the wall with these programs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_combat_aircraft

Western military leaders and industry look at drones and they basically think of a current-gen manned combat aircraft but with a couple benefits:
1) maybe itll be cheaper because we won't have to put a cockpit and all its associated gear on the plane?
2) we wont have to care if it gets shot down because no pilot, thatll be popular with politicians i bet?
3) maybe it can do some sick macross zero poo poo because we dont have to worry about human g-tolerance anymore???

Just take a step back and think about that. You're starting from the design assumptions of a current-gen manned combat aircraft - that it's going to be carry 500lb+ bombs, that it's going to be able to fight 1:1 with a manned tactical fighter, that you're going to have a fleet of them measured in hundreds or mayyybe thousands. You're ultimately talking about a system that you expect to procure as if it was a tactical combat aircraft.

Then look at like a Shahed-136 or -238. There's a reason the US hasn't procured something like that: doctrinally, it's a threat to all the power players in the MIC. Suddenly you're talking about an intermediate-range strategic strike weapon that doesn't need hugely expensive cutting edge stealth technology that can only be fabricated by the lockmart and grumman keebler elves or the pratt & whitney and GE supercruise whisperers, that doesn't need aerial refueling, that doesn't need aircraft carriers, hell you're calling into question whether you even need expensive and highly trained (and prestigious) pilots to deliver air strikes at all.

It's generally just a true observation that doctrinal concepts that threaten the prestige of the entrenched military leadership are killed in the crib unless there are outside forces that strong-arm the military into accepting them; it's just even more true now that there's also this massive and highly profitable sole-source arms industry whose cozy margins are also threatened by new ideas.

DR FRASIER KRANG
Feb 4, 2005

"Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?
we need fewer Dick Joneses and more Bob Mortons

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020
I think Pentagon wants drone for the simply rule #1 reason, does it look more scifi?

The problem is the cooler and more scifi looking drones are big drones, that's not where the direction is going in the actual war.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

The Oldest Man posted:

You can read the writing on the wall with these programs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_combat_aircraft

Western military leaders and industry look at drones and they basically think of a current-gen manned combat aircraft but with a couple benefits:
1) maybe itll be cheaper because we won't have to put a cockpit and all its associated gear on the plane?
2) we wont have to care if it gets shot down because no pilot, thatll be popular with politicians i bet?
3) maybe it can do some sick macross zero poo poo because we dont have to worry about human g-tolerance anymore???

Just take a step back and think about that. You're starting from the design assumptions of a current-gen manned combat aircraft - that it's going to be carry 500lb+ bombs, that it's going to be able to fight 1:1 with a manned tactical fighter, that you're going to have a fleet of them measured in hundreds or mayyybe thousands. You're ultimately talking about a system that you expect to procure as if it was a tactical combat aircraft.

Then look at like a Shahed-136 or -238. There's a reason the US hasn't procured something like that: doctrinally, it's a threat to all the power players in the MIC. Suddenly you're talking about an intermediate-range strategic strike weapon that doesn't need hugely expensive cutting edge stealth technology that can only be fabricated by the lockmart and grumman keebler elves or the pratt & whitney and GE supercruise whisperers, that doesn't need aerial refueling, that doesn't need aircraft carriers, hell you're calling into question whether you even need expensive and highly trained (and prestigious) pilots to deliver air strikes at all.

It's generally just a true observation that doctrinal concepts that threaten the prestige of the entrenched military leadership are killed in the crib unless there are outside forces that strong-arm the military into accepting them; it's just even more true now that there's also this massive and highly profitable sole-source arms industry whose cozy margins are also threatened by new ideas.

I would quibble that the US does actually procure similar loitering munitions, the switchblade jumps to mind, but they’re stuck in doctrinal niches because of the organizational threat that changing doctrine to enhance their usage would pose.

So they’re seen as a way to enhance the existing force structure rather than something demanding a restructuring to adapt to using.

sum
Nov 15, 2010

poisonpill posted:

Why is every branch so reticent to move to unmanned stuff? Like drones, robots, etc.? It seems like trying to make it so that it could either have a crew or be empty will get you the worst of both worlds and please don’t just say grift

For unmanned ground vehicles I think the basic problem is that they're just a bad idea. Aerial drones are a different story but the Russia-Ukraine war has shown that you really need extremely large volumes of very cheap disposable drones (e.g., the Shahed 136, DJI Mavics, Aliexpress quadcopters with PG-7s strapped to them etc.), which goes against the entire MIC ethos of building small amounts of extremely expensive stuff.

A typical example of a Western-made tactical drone is something like the Switchblade 300, which costs $60,000 apiece, has a range of 10 km and a warhead basically equivalent to a grenade. For ~$20,000, the Russian MIC can build a Geran-2 with a range of 2500 km and a warhead weighing 50 kilograms. So it's grift.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Trabisnikof posted:

I would quibble that the US does actually procure similar loitering munitions, the switchblade jumps to mind, but they’re stuck in doctrinal niches because of the organizational threat that changing doctrine to enhance their usage would pose.


The switchblade is a tactical munition with a range of about 40km for the latest and largest version, and it's still designed to be man-portable. The Shahed-136 is a strategic munition with a range of 2500 km that weighs almost 500 pounds. These are only similar in that they are drones that are smaller than conventional aircraft.

skooma512
Feb 8, 2012

You couldn't grok my race car, but you dug the roadside blur.

poisonpill posted:

Why is every branch so reticent to move to unmanned stuff? Like drones, robots, etc.? It seems like trying to make it so that it could either have a crew or be empty will get you the worst of both worlds and please don’t just say grift

The Air Force brass are all fighter pilots. You don't get promotions if your cockpit is a trailer at Creech and your controls are from an Xbox.

Justin Tyme
Feb 22, 2011


I keep thinking about the prevalence of cheap quadrotors with RPG-7 warheads ziptied to them and how it's almost inconceivable the US/NATO will ever begin to have anything comparable that somehow costs under 5 figures per unit let alone 4 figures.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

skooma512 posted:

The Air Force brass are all fighter pilots. You don't get promotions if your cockpit is a trailer at Creech and your controls are from an Xbox.

Hey some of them are bomber pilots

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

poisonpill posted:

Why is every branch so reticent to move to unmanned stuff? Like drones, robots, etc.? It seems like trying to make it so that it could either have a crew or be empty will get you the worst of both worlds and please don’t just say grift

a rare case where i get to maniacally shout 'inflation is inflation of wages, not prices' but in the ww3 thread

the ideological foundation of american government since the nixon administration is keep labor costs down no matter what, of course that will bleed into the military via cutting carriers to skeleton crews and unmanned tanks

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Justin Tyme posted:

cheap quadrotors with RPG-7 warheads ziptied to them



This is just US MIC garbagebrain that these are all crude, ersatz improvisational weapons rather than purpose-built, series-production designs because that feeds the Western cope machine that Acksually, these cave-dwelling primitives can't compete with Our Good poo poo. Does this look like an RPG-7 warhead ziptied to a quadcopter to you?

sum
Nov 15, 2010

Like these functionally do the same thing (short-range aerial reconnaissance) but compare the cost:

AeroVironment RQ-11 (US MIC recon drone)


vs.

DJI Mavic Air 3 (commercial quadcopter)

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

The Oldest Man posted:

The switchblade is a tactical munition with a range of about 40km for the latest and largest version, and it's still designed to be man-portable. The Shahed-136 is a strategic munition with a range of 2500 km that weighs almost 500 pounds. These are only similar in that they are drones that are smaller than conventional aircraft.

and they cost the same :v:


but good point, that was not an exact comparison. the recent tomahawks can apparently loiter now, and they're only $2M each. there's also the Aevex Phoenix Ghost and the Raytheon Coyote but details are scant on those

mycomancy
Oct 16, 2016

The Oldest Man posted:



This is just US MIC garbagebrain that these are all crude, ersatz improvisational weapons rather than purpose-built, series-production designs because that feeds the Western cope machine that Acksually, these cave-dwelling primitives can't compete with Our Good poo poo. Does this look like an RPG-7 warhead ziptied to a quadcopter to you?

I think the point of the comment is that even duct taping ordinance to a quadcopter you bought on your phone while taking a dump is more effective than a Switchblade.

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001




switchblade should be the name of the ginsu hellfire variant

what are we even doing

Comrade Merf
Jun 2, 2011

Real hurthling! posted:

switchblade should be the name of the ginsu hellfire variant

what are we even doing

Yeah its been bothering me for years at this point as well.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

the fact that if the us buys a loitering munition it will cost 100x more than if China, Russia, Iran, etc bought it goes beyond the organizational threat to flyboys etc that these munitions pose. the cost is due to the fundamental rot at play in the american economic system.

if we want to buy a manned fighter jet, an unmanned fighter jet, a tank, a truck, a nuclear power plant or a concrete bridge over a creek, they're all going to cost 100x what it does in places not suffering from the same institutionalized grift. replacing the air force chiefs with droneboys instead of flyboys won't be able to change that.

they'll just buy more million dollar loitering munitions to replace the million dollar missiles

err
Apr 11, 2005

I carry my own weight no matter how heavy this shit gets...

uber_stoat posted:

it's fun watching the government stirring like a drunken sleeping giant, hangover head pounding, slowly realizing just how hosed it is.

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020
The largest Switchblade is comparable to the early version of Lancet. They are designed to target tanks, costs about 200k-400k each.

I don't know the Russian side has ever tried something on the scale of the smaller Switchblade.



The FPV """suicide""" drones started this year and its an entire different way of killing people in the trench or light armored vehicles. It costs about 2k each. Has the range of under 10 miles?



The Iranian Shahed 137 has had a pretty old history, I think the earliest design was from Israel. It's not really a new drone design from this war. I don't know why the west can't make any and give to Ukraine.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Trabisnikof posted:

and they cost the same :v:


but good point, that was not an exact comparison. the recent tomahawks can apparently loiter now, and they're only $2M each. there's also the Aevex Phoenix Ghost and the Raytheon Coyote but details are scant on those

Only 100 times as expensive as a Shahed per munition then assuming that you're getting the Burke that's shooting them for free :v:

Trabisnikof posted:

the fact that if the us buys a loitering munition it will cost 100x more than if China, Russia, Iran, etc bought it goes beyond the organizational threat to flyboys etc that these munitions pose. the cost is due to the fundamental rot at play in the american economic system.

if we want to buy a manned fighter jet, an unmanned fighter jet, a tank, a truck, a nuclear power plant or a concrete bridge over a creek, they're all going to cost 100x what it does in places not suffering from the same institutionalized grift. replacing the air force chiefs with droneboys instead of flyboys won't be able to change that.

they'll just buy more million dollar loitering munitions to replace the million dollar missiles

Getting doctrinally pantsed is a result of the rot as much as the out of control cost basis of the military's systems is

stephenthinkpad posted:

The Iranian Shahed 137 has had a pretty old history, I think the earliest design was from Israel. It's not really a new drone design from this war. I don't know why the west can't make any and give to Ukraine.

The whole point here is that the Western MIC is so loving blinkered that it won't even try to adapt until forced to, very likely by a shocking military defeat, and that even once it starts trying it probably won't be able to because its cost basis and industrial capacity are totally hosed too

AmyL
Aug 8, 2013


Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

The Oldest Man posted:


...
The whole point here is that the Western MIC is so loving blinkered that it won't even try to adapt until forced to, very likely by a shocking military defeat, and that even once it starts trying it probably won't be able to because its cost basis and industrial capacity are totally hosed too


quote:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.
’”

JAY ZERO SUM GAME
Oct 18, 2005

Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.


I’m about halfway through Vladislov Zubak’s ‘Collapse’

it is so good, and it’s amazing how unthinkable the end was to everyone, even on the inside

something to think about

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Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

stephenthinkpad posted:

The Iranian Shahed 137 has had a pretty old history, I think the earliest design was from Israel. It's not really a new drone design from this war. I don't know why the west can't make any and give to Ukraine.

making cheap and functional poo poo isn't profitable, and thus, by the magic of the ~free market~, it turns out that having a dozen artisan drones that don't perform any better than the cheapo ones is inherently a better use for the money

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