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Hong XiuQuan posted:Now, none of the above examples excuse racism. But it's interesting to see that there's been more discourse on racism because of a patch on Houthi uniforms (while they target in the main Israeli shipping) in the latest few pages than there has been in the rest of the thread. It's not so much the patch they wear as much as the fact that they executed ethnic cleansing across all territory in their control. This thread has produced many many pages' worth of discussion about the atrocious racism of Israeli society from the earliest days of the Nakba to the present day, definitely much more than our discussion of racism in Yemen. One difference is that we all agree that Israeli racism is abominable and its ethnic cleansing inexcusable, but when it comes to Yemen there is a real difference of opinion over whether bigotry and ethnic cleansing are bad or not. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 05:25
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Now, none of the above examples excuse racism. But it's interesting to see that there's been more discourse on racism because of a patch on Houthi uniforms (while they target in the main Israeli shipping) in the latest few pages than there has been in the rest of the thread.  Who has even mention Houthi uniforms or patches? We’ve talked about their ethnic cleansing which is a bit more than just a uniform patch, but not a single peep on a uniform patch.
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Dec 21, 2023 05:45
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Neurolimal posted:There's nothing but upsides to doing this. The US can make a big show by sending a bunch of Western boats to occupy the sea, but that's evidently not reassuring to the insurance companies (and by extension the shipping companies), and it doesn't guarantee the safety of the shipping boats. They cant be everywhere along Yemen's border (especially without risking an international crisis in the event they're attacked) and the boats can't intercept every munition lobbed. Can someone point me to a source or be willing to explain further on this point that the flotilla sent to Yemen is doomed to fail, from like a strategic/military capability perspective? I've been seeing this take a lot and I want to know what it's based on and if there is any precedent or anything
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Dec 21, 2023 08:09
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Autisanal Cheese posted:Can someone point me to a source or be willing to explain further on this point that the flotilla sent to Yemen is doomed to fail, from like a strategic/military capability perspective? I've been seeing this take a lot and I want to know what it's based on and if there is any precedent or anything It is very difficult to degrade Ansar Allah's ability to attack shipping vessels without striking the land these attacks are originating from. Without concrete proof of such degradation, insurers are unlikely to lower premiums that make shipping via the suez unecomical. It's not that the US military is incapable of fighting Ansar Allah, but rather that this is not a problem that can be solved militarily. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 08:15
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I don't see it very controversial take that Israeli actions increase anti-semitism, just like islamic terrorism increases islamophobia. Group psychology is hosed up that way, and I think that it was pretty clear strategy for for example ISIS that they wanted to polarize European societies with their terrorist attacks and that way make European leaders and societies react in rash ways that would further divide European muslim population as a reaction. So ISIS terrorists sure as hell thought that islamophobia and terrorism was linked. But it also should be apparent that terrorism or genocide doesn't in anyway make anti-semitism or islamophobia just or rational. The whole point of understanding group psychology is to understand how irrational it is.
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Dec 21, 2023 08:41
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Glah posted:I don't see it very controversial take that Israeli actions increase anti-semitism, just like islamic terrorism increases islamophobia. Group psychology is hosed up that way, and I think that it was pretty clear strategy for for example ISIS that they wanted to polarize European societies with their terrorist attacks and that way make European leaders and societies react in rash ways that would further divide European muslim population as a reaction. So ISIS terrorists sure as hell thought that islamophobia and terrorism was linked. I don’t think it anyone thinks it is controversial that terrorism or bad acts causes an increase in bigotry in any way, it’s just the implication that this makes it just or fine is the issue.
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Dec 21, 2023 09:07
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Autisanal Cheese posted:Can someone point me to a source or be willing to explain further on this point that the flotilla sent to Yemen is doomed to fail, from like a strategic/military capability perspective? I've been seeing this take a lot and I want to know what it's based on and if there is any precedent or anything They're using dirt-cheap drones for a large number of their attacks, which will be exceedingly difficult to prevent them from using reliably enough to bring those insurance premiums down, and that's before we get into their more conventional long-ranged missiles and artillery and their years of experience in asymmetrical warfare. They just need to keep shipping companies scared enough to rack up unacceptable financial losses, which is a really easy military objective even before we get into how relatively weedy this flotilla is if it's supposed to remove an entire country's long-ranged strike capabilities.
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Dec 21, 2023 12:12
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Will try to sum up what I have been trying to explain here and step away for the day. The Houthis have conducted a program of ethnic cleansing against indigenous ethnic minorities: quote:10 October 2022 quote:26 January 2022 In the specific case of the ethnic cleansing that was conducted against the indigenous Yemeni Jewish population, there is a difference of opinion over whether or not this was a seriously bad thing for the Houthi state to be doing. The disagreement is not over whether antisemitism is historically explainable, or whether Israel's crimes have profoundly exacerbated it, the disagreement is a moral one, over whether the perpetrators of ethnic cleansing did something evil or not - whether they should be "booed" for committing ethnic cleansing: moths posted:Israel is doing monstrous things while proclaiming that WE ARE JEWS. JEWS ARE DOING THIS. Their neighbors react with the idea that they don't like Jews, and the instigating post was like "Boo these men, they're antisemitic." My opinion is, ethnic cleansing is always a despicable, heinous crime against humanity. That's why Israel's genocide needs to be halted immediately. If the Houthi campaign makes it happen faster, that's obviously good, but it does not change that they are also proud perpetrators of ethnic cleansing themselves. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 12:24
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Can we change the name of this thread to the Yemen History Thread?
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Dec 21, 2023 12:28
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Darth Walrus posted:They're using dirt-cheap drones for a large number of their attacks, which will be exceedingly difficult to prevent them from using reliably enough to bring those insurance premiums down, and that's before we get into their more conventional long-ranged missiles and artillery and their years of experience in asymmetrical warfare. They just need to keep shipping companies scared enough to rack up unacceptable financial losses, which is a really easy military objective even before we get into how relatively weedy this flotilla is if it's supposed to remove an entire country's long-ranged strike capabilities. I think the only issue with the idea that the Houthi can cause unacceptable financial losses in a short time frame is that we already saw someone do this to influence things related to Israel, and they kept the Suez Canal completely closed for eight years straight. Nothing going through, instead of just ships deciding not to go through. That was apparently not unacceptable financial losses, at a time when the Suez Canal absolutely handled a large amount of world trade. Bel Shazar posted:Can we change the name of this thread to the Yemen History Thread? The long, long ago history of 'last year'. Darth Walrus posted:Global supply chains are both more crucial and brittle than they were in the Sixties and Seventies, thanks to so many industries moving to just-in-time manufacturing rather than retaining their robust post-WWII defences against supply disruptions. The Suez Canal being completely shut down for eight years starting now would cause orders of magnitude more chaos and economic anguish than it did then. I... never said it wouldn't? My point was that the Suez Canal isn't even shut down yet and only some traffic has been rerouted, so we might be counting our chickens before they hatch, unacceptable financial losses-wise. Even eight years of it in the 60s-70s wasn't enough to get people to make Israel stop and they were directly causing its closure back then. We might be in the long-haul before it really starts to cause significant pressure on Israel itself. Kchama fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 12:30
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Kchama posted:I think the only issue with the idea that the Houthi can cause unacceptable financial losses in a short time frame is that we already saw someone do this to influence things related to Israel, and they kept the Suez Canal completely closed for eight years straight. Nothing going through, instead of just ships deciding not to go through. That was apparently not unacceptable financial losses, at a time when the Suez Canal absolutely handled a large amount of world trade. Global supply chains are both more crucial and brittle than they were in the Sixties and Seventies, thanks to so many industries moving to just-in-time manufacturing rather than retaining their robust post-WWII defences against supply disruptions. The Suez Canal being completely shut down for eight years starting now would cause orders of magnitude more chaos and economic anguish than it did then.
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Dec 21, 2023 12:35
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Darth Walrus posted:Global supply chains are both more crucial and brittle than they were in the Sixties and Seventies, thanks to so many industries moving to just-in-time manufacturing rather than retaining their robust post-WWII defences against supply disruptions. The Suez Canal being completely shut down for eight years starting now would cause orders of magnitude more chaos and economic anguish than it did then. Yeah, nowadays EU common markets are much more interlinked with Asian markets than they were half a century ago, and the amount of sea traffic has also increased, so the about 10 days shorter journey is very important for efficiency of European supply chains.
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Dec 21, 2023 12:42
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As long as the risk is 'we will fly a helicopter out and try to hijack you' rather than Iran's 'we will flood the gulf with mines and fling missiles at anything that passes' the threat is probably manageable.
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Dec 21, 2023 12:47
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Alchenar posted:As long as the risk is 'we will fly a helicopter out and try to hijack you' rather than Iran's 'we will flood the gulf with mines and fling missiles at anything that passes' the threat is probably manageable. poo poo, they could hijack a couple of ships, sail them into the canal and Evergiven them intentionally at any point. We all saw how long it took to dislodge one ship, what happens if you have two?
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Dec 21, 2023 13:29
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Young Freud posted:poo poo, they could hijack a couple of ships, sail them into the canal and Evergiven them intentionally at any point. We all saw how long it took to dislodge one ship, what happens if you have two? No you can't do that, that's not how shipping works.
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Dec 21, 2023 13:32
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Young Freud posted:poo poo, they could hijack a couple of ships, sail them into the canal and Evergiven them intentionally at any point. We all saw how long it took to dislodge one ship, what happens if you have two? I’ll repost my screenshot of marine traffic from last night. It’s a very long way from the coast of Yemen to the Suez Canal. This isn’t plausible. 
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Dec 21, 2023 13:37
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Alchenar posted:No you can't do that, that's not how shipping works. Perhaps not, but you can sink a few ships right in the Bab al-Mandab Strait and that would create some big loving problems for global logistics
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Dec 21, 2023 14:37
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Failed Imagineer posted:Perhaps not, but you can sink a few ships right in the Bab al-Mandab Strait and that would create some big loving problems for global logistics You do that and you cross the line from 'annoying but nobody wants to escalate the situation' to 'the world watches and claps while a US air group flattens you'.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:44
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Alchenar posted:You do that and you cross the line from 'annoying but nobody wants to escalate the situation' to 'the world watches and claps while a US air group flattens you'. Would be interested to see if Yemen can get any flatter tbh
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Dec 21, 2023 14:49
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Failed Imagineer posted:Would be interested to see if Yemen can get any flatter tbh this is the whole thing. what leverage does the US even have when theyve been bombing Yemen since the Obama admin?
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Dec 21, 2023 14:50
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Alchenar posted:You do that and you cross the line from 'annoying but nobody wants to escalate the situation' to 'the world watches and claps while a US air group flattens you'.
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Dec 21, 2023 14:53
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The Al Jazeera live blog (not sure how to link from it properly) has details of the IDFs attacks on cemeteries in Gaza. Guess they’ve run out of hospitals, refugee camps, schools, and places of worship. Now they are literally maiming the dead.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:04
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Failed Imagineer posted:Would be interested to see if Yemen can get any flatter tbh Would rather not thank you. Also... like the US could put them into the negative values for flatness if they had enough motivation.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:30
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hadji murad posted:The Al Jazeera live blog (not sure how to link from it properly) has details of the IDFs attacks on cemeteries in Gaza. The IDF released these images of a secret Hamas base under a mausoleum.    
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Dec 21, 2023 15:32
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This certainly doesn't seem all that sustainable for the Israeli economy: https://x.com/ajenglish/status/1737826643186499771?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Dec 21, 2023 15:49
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Autisanal Cheese posted:Can someone point me to a source or be willing to explain further on this point that the flotilla sent to Yemen is doomed to fail, from like a strategic/military capability perspective? I've been seeing this take a lot and I want to know what it's based on and if there is any precedent or anything The last 50 years of American intervention. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 21, 2023 16:43
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Google Jeb Bush posted:We could probably use fewer incendiary / smug one-liners hereabouts, especially in an environment where there's legit a good bit to discuss about piracy, shipping lanes, historical respones, and so on. What is your statement actually adding to the discussion? An implication that the US will start a new war, that you do not elaborate upon, and an expression of irritation/anger? In a thread where the rules broadly discourage low-effort rageposting, because we're extremely aware that this topic can easily degenerate into endless angry screaming? Maybe let's not do this thing. fuckin nerd (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 21, 2023 16:51
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Autisanal Cheese posted:Can someone point me to a source or be willing to explain further on this point that the flotilla sent to Yemen is doomed to fail, from like a strategic/military capability perspective? I've been seeing this take a lot and I want to know what it's based on and if there is any precedent or anything A US/Saudi/UAE coalition bombed the poo poo out of Houthi territory for nearly a decade, killing ~400k people (85k children from starvation) and obviously failed to degrade their military capacity by that much. The missiles they're using don't really require a lot of infrastructure. Unless we want to bomb every barn / home / cave in Houthi territory (much of which is pretty rural), it's not clear how it's even possible to stop them militarily without invading. We're not going to invade them. The Houthis are significantly more popular among the gulf Arab populations than their own monarchs - MBS and MBZ are widely - and correctly - seen as sycophants in thrall to US interests. Starting a land war with the only group of Arabs doing anything material to support Palestinians runs the risk of rage boiling over. These Arab royal families are ginormous, there's always the risk that your hates-the-Americans-more-than-you cousin might see which way the winds are blowing and decide that he'd like to be the king now. Edit: I'll try to dig up the polls I'm basing this off of (was a reference in some Foreign Affairs article, don't have my login at work), but what's astounding about this is that the Houthis - who aren't just Shia but are Zaydi Muslims, a minority sect of Shias - are more popular in these Sunni states than their own Sunni leaders. I hate to keep repeating "if you don't know any Muslims..." but for those of you who don't: That's astonishing. There's an incredible amount of animosity between Sunnis and Shias. Gnumonic fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 17:12
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Kchama posted:What pass has Israel gotten here for hate-crimes?
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Dec 21, 2023 17:38
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Halloween Jack posted:At various points we've spent pages debating Israeli claims that turned out to be ridiculous fabrications, all the while accepting the eggheaded proposition that someone lying constantly and blatantly is no reason to automatically disbelieve the next ridiculous lie. So much wailing and gnashing of teeth over whether Israel bombed a particular civilian target while they're definitely bombing a dozen other civilian targets.That's effectively giving them a pass and acting as the "compatible Left" for Israel (to the extent that debates on Internet forums make any difference in a war). No it isn't. Discussing the facts of something isn't 'giving it a pass.' It is in fact important to understand what is and isn't accurate so you're not making the mistake of going "(x) is bad so I'll believe any claim about them no matter what." This goes in both directions. The reason there is more discussion about one thing than another is because there's literally no controversy over the other. Everyone is on the same page. Short of posting Israel Bad over and over nonstop, there isn't any way people can be more on the same side. Like even if people end up discussing a lie, discussing that lie can help bring up information useful for convincing someone it is a lie. War is not a sports game. Understanding the facts is important. Even if you support a side you should still be aware of the consequences and costs of their actions because even if the most noble, just and heroic war in existence was still a horrific act of butchery and history has spent way too long whitewashing the winners for us to continue to do so if we can avoid it.
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Dec 21, 2023 18:46
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Speaking of facts, wapo says probably no base at al-Shifa https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/ of course that leaves a whole bunch of other hospitals israel bombed....
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Dec 21, 2023 20:41
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ImpAtom posted:NoThis goes in both directions. The reason there is more discussion about one thing than another is because there's literally no controversy over the other. Everyone is on the same page. Short of posting Israel Bad over and over nonstop, there isn't any way people can be more on the same side. I disagree. The “everyone is on the same page” is quite clearly false. That refrain to that is just centering the debate on the ethical actions of the oppressed rather than the oppressor. It is akin to trying to talk about a systemic racism in the US, saying “well everyone agrees, here, but don’t you know that insert minority population commits more crime? Don’t @ me bro”
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Dec 21, 2023 22:00
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A big flaming stink posted:It is very difficult to degrade Ansar Allah's ability to attack shipping vessels without striking the land these attacks are originating from. Without concrete proof of such degradation, insurers are unlikely to lower premiums that make shipping via the suez unecomical. I would argue that this is a problem that can be solved militarily, but it would require massively more commitment than is currently being done. Autisanal Cheese posted:Can someone point me to a source or be willing to explain further on this point that the flotilla sent to Yemen is doomed to fail, from like a strategic/military capability perspective? I've been seeing this take a lot and I want to know what it's based on and if there is any precedent or anything The fundamental problem here is that the Houthis are using really cheap drones to plink at billion-dollar freighters that are not designed to take any fire. Most of their attacks fail, but that's fine, the cost of a failed attack is a lawnmover engine, some fiberglass, some TNT and an android phone. To prevent this, you either need tons more AA-capable ships, or you need boots on the ground to take control of the coastline near the narrow parts of the strait. Tuna-Fish fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 22:01
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IDF murdered a bunch of civilians in front of their families, then attacked a bunch of the surviving family members, including children https://twitter.com/OHCHR_Palestine/status/1737543509719011784 quote:On 19 December 2023, between 2000 and 2300 hours, IDF reportedly surrounded and raided Al Awda building, also known as the “Annan building”, in Al Remal neighborhood, Gaza City, where three related families were sheltering in addition to Annan family. According to witness accounts circulated by media sources and Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, while in control of the building and the civilians sheltering there, the IDF allegedly separated the men from the women and children, and then shot and killed at least 11 of the men, mostly aged in their late 20’s and early 30’s, in front of their family members. The IDF then allegedly ordered the women and children into a room, and either shot at them or threw a grenade into the room, reportedly seriously injuring some of them, including an infant and a child. OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awdabuilding, although the details and circumstances of the killings are still under verification. IDF has not released any information on the incident. Al-Jazeera article with more info Piell fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 22:38
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Mean Baby posted:I disagree. The “everyone is on the same page” is quite clearly false. That refrain to that is just centering the debate on the ethical actions of the oppressed rather than the oppressor. I'm glad to hear that the Houthi in Yemen were the oppressed and not the oppressors. I'm sure the Jews who once lived there (someone calling them 'antagonized' is funny considering that literally one (1) Jew lives there now thanks to them) The Gazans are quite blatantly the oppressed, but nobody has to pretend they are perfect angels. The battle against the IDF is just even if they do things I completely disagree with to people who aren't the IDF. The world is not black and white. Piell posted:IDF murdered a bunch of civilians in front of their families, then attacked a bunch of the surviving family members, including children Speaking of the reason why the war against the IDF is just! Kchama fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 23:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:
This thread has had Palestinians get called roaches and the penalty is a day off . There are people who agree with Israel's disgusting racism.
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Dec 21, 2023 23:53
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Piell posted:IDF murdered a bunch of civilians in front of their families, then attacked a bunch of the surviving family members, including children When this poo poo happened in Yugoslavia there wasn't any doubt that it was intolerable and we bombed the hell out of those responsible.
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Dec 22, 2023 00:57
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Mischievous Mink posted:This thread has had Palestinians get called roaches and the penalty is a day off . There are people who agree with Israel's disgusting racism. No one in this conversation has even hinted that they think Israel is right in any way, so it seems like we are all currently in agreement. It certainly is wild that that person wasn't dealt with much more harshly, though.
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Dec 22, 2023 01:04
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I was informed yesterday that Taylor Swift is bad because she did not say ceasefire in her Time's person of the year interview. And that since she is the most famous person on the planet, if she called for a cease fire it would do something, and she could boycott Israel. Beyond this being... kind of a silly point (I don't think the military industrial complex gives a poo poo and they have more money than her) it got me thinking, when has boycotts of that sort of thing historically ever been successful? Even if we look at peaceful protests, historically there's almost always had to be violence to actually get positive results.
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Dec 22, 2023 01:36
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LionArcher posted:I was informed yesterday that Taylor Swift is bad because she did not say ceasefire in her Time's person of the year interview. And that since she is the most famous person on the planet, if she called for a cease fire it would do something, and she could boycott Israel. Beyond this being... kind of a silly point (I don't think the military industrial complex gives a poo poo and they have more money than her) it got me thinking, when has boycotts of that sort of thing historically ever been successful? Even if we look at peaceful protests, historically there's almost always had to be violence to actually get positive results. BDS was pretty helpful against South Africa and is effective enough against Israel that AIPAC has worked with many states to make it illegal.
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Dec 22, 2023 01:55
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