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Unfortunately there's not going to be a quick and easy way to figure out which it is. If there is a manual override I would get to cranking. If it's jammed at all its likely overload. Is the breaker dedicated to the cover? If not turn off everything else. Otherwise either one is equally likely.
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Dec 25, 2023 23:15
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kastein posted:I seem to recall buying a fair number on Amazon for less than that but I might be brain farting. Make sure you buy the correct kind, if you have a plug on neutral capable panel (PON) you'll want the PON breakers for sure but if your panel is not PON capable, you will have to get the pigtail kind.
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Dec 25, 2023 23:17
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Steve French posted:Is there any way to tell from the breaker itself (or does it depend on the model) if it’s tripping due to a ground fault or an overload? Take the breaker cover off. Undo that circuit's neutral and ground wires. Use a multimeter continuity test and see if there's continuity between that circuit's ground and neutral. Now those wires are only supposed to be joined in the main breaker panel. If they have continuity, then those wires are touching in the wall somewhere and you have an arc fault. Now try for a circuit between hot and ground. Those 2 touching would trip a regular breaker. If after those 2 tests you got nothing, it's probably an overloaded circuit. Note that these tests can't tell you where the trip is occurring, only that it has occurred. Finding where is a bunch of legwork.
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Dec 25, 2023 23:44
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Steve French posted:Probably simple question: I don’t have much personal experience with GFCI breakers, just breakers and GFCI outlets. It depends on the model. I believe most have a tell that indicates why they tripped. Eaton ones have a LED that blinks a code indicating why it last tripped.
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Dec 25, 2023 23:51
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Given that the circuit is for a water-related device, I could easily believe that water is getting somewhere it shouldn't, causing the GFCI or breaker to trip. Sounds like a job for whoever installed it.
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Dec 25, 2023 23:53
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H110Hawk posted:Unfortunately there's not going to be a quick and easy way to figure out which it is. If there is a manual override I would get to cranking. If it's jammed at all its likely overload. Is the breaker dedicated to the cover? If not turn off everything else. No manual override that we can find, unfortunately, and no apparent jam. It’ll move a couple inches with each round of breaker tripping, so we did that a couple times to at least get it closed and avoid a safety hazard for the kids. And yeah, the breaker is just for the cover as far as I can tell (labeled as such). kid sinister posted:Take the breaker cover off. Undo that circuit's neutral and ground wires. Use a multimeter continuity test and see if there's continuity between that circuit's ground and neutral. Now those wires are only supposed to be joined in the main breaker panel. If they have continuity, then those wires are touching in the wall somewhere and you have an arc fault. I’m at my in-laws so unfortunately don’t have any of my electrical tools. Don’t have a multimeter available. I doubt there’s a circuit between hot and ground: the breaker only trips when we turn the cover motor on, rather than immediately when resetting it. Shifty Pony posted:It depends on the model. I believe most have a tell that indicates why they tripped. Eaton ones have a LED that blinks a code indicating why it last tripped. Thanks, I’ll take a look at this. TooMuchAbstraction posted:Given that the circuit is for a water-related device, I could easily believe that water is getting somewhere it shouldn't, causing the GFCI or breaker to trip. Sounds like a job for whoever installed it. This was of course my first thought, though the way it’s designed the cover has no wiring going anywhere particularly near the water: the cover spool itself is powered hydraulically, and the hydraulic pump is distanced significantly from the pool and above ground, with buried conduit running from the pump to the remote switch. Could still very well be this, but I didn’t figure as obvious a culprit. Thanks for the input, obviously they’re gonna be calling the installers to get this addressed on not-Christmas, I just wanted to make a last ditch effort to diagnose and fix ourselves today however unlikely given lack of tools, expertise, and familiarity. E: after letting it sit for a while waiting for responses, I went back out to see if there were codes to read after getting it to trip again. Naturally, that time it opened about a third of the way, but confirmed that according to the breaker it’s an overload. Worked well enough to get it open for now. Thanks! Steve French fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Dec 26, 2023 |
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Dec 26, 2023 00:23
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Maybe it's just me, but I would not buy safety-critical items from Amazon. Not only are they full of counterfeits, but they dump all incoming GurgleAs into the same drat bin, so you may think you're buying from a trusted source, but actually you're getting whichever GurgleA is at the top of the bin. You aren't wrong, but so far all the square D stuff I've gotten there has been legit square D, no sign of counterfeit fuckery at all.
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Dec 26, 2023 01:22
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So how bad is a Federal Pioneer Stablok panel/breaker, exactly? I was looking into some things for my parents and recognized the brand as problematic from posts around here.  They've been here for almost since it was a new build (early 2000s) with no issues. My thinking is to advise them to plan to update it if/when they do any major electrical work, but otherwise don't go out of their way. Is that sensible, or am I underestimating the risks?
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Dec 26, 2023 18:58
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Federal Pioneer is not immediately scary. Federal Pacific Electric is the danger one.
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Dec 26, 2023 19:06
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you're right, it's not immediate. definitely avoid adding circuits to that thing though. a kitchen reno with 4-6 new circuits would justify a subpanel next to it but anything more just go for total replacement
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Dec 26, 2023 19:56
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I feel like the most amazing thing here is 48 slots in a 125A panel. That thing is huge. It looks like Federal Pioneer suffer from much of the same problems with Federal Pacific? It really seems like Stab-Lok is just not to be trusted at all. Google seems to indicate even modern replacement Stab-Lok brand breakers fail UL tests. It's surprisingly hard to google the differences. The fact that FPE and FPE have the same acronyms and have been gobbled up multiple time by conglomerates. I'm surprised they were sold for new construction in the 2000's. https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/Federal_Pioneer_Panel_Safety.php
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Dec 26, 2023 21:56
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So, fun advice: If your replacement GFCI just keeps tripping over and over, consider checking if the extension cord in the outlet downstream hasn't fallen into a bucket of water.
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Dec 27, 2023 05:34
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Federal Pioneer is not immediately scary. Federal Pacific Electric is the danger one.
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Dec 27, 2023 06:32
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:So, fun advice: If your replacement GFCI just keeps tripping over and over, consider checking if the extension cord in the outlet downstream hasn't fallen into a bucket of water. One Weird Trick that Big Water Bucket doesn't want you to know!
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Dec 27, 2023 08:02
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Edit: wrong Home thread
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Dec 27, 2023 16:49
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Thanks y'all! They're already pretty safety-minded so they should be good to keep on keeping on until a major electrical change is needed.H110Hawk posted:I feel like the most amazing thing here is 48 slots in a 125A panel. That thing is huge. They live in what was a development so I assume they had a few shipping containers of these panels sitting around so just kept using them. That and, as I understand it, code in Ontario lags the USA broadly speaking. I know the kitchen and bath here are on splits not GFCI, which I find wild for a post-2000 build.
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Dec 27, 2023 17:30
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Blackbeer posted:I'd try to keep things low as that's where the gap on the dw is. Makes things easier on you too. Thanks again all for the advice. I finally had a chance to work on it and realized where the dishwasher box is going to go is between the same studs as the current hole. Seems like I can just fish the romex through a new hole in the sink cabinet drywall without having to do much else and save me the trouble of the conduit.
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Jan 1, 2024 06:16
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i’ve got a 20a circuit in my garage that used to be a dedicated line for a pellet stove, but is currently powering a refrigerator. the previous owner for some reason also wired the indoor garage light outlets on the ceiling and the outdoor light fixture to this same circuit. i am about to replace some damaged drywall and since ive got the wall open next to the outdoor light and i have no outlets on this side of the garage and wondering if i can 1) add 2 outlets on this circuit 2) gfci one/both or if i have to gfci further up i don’t have an issue actually doing stuff like this just want to be safe. Faustian Bargain fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jan 1, 2024 |
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Jan 1, 2024 23:12
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Yeah adding some extra outlets on a no longer dedicated appliance branch circuit is totally fine. Go to the first outlet in the chain (fridge probably?) and replace it with a GFCI outlet. Make sure the hot and neutral wires feeding the rest of the stuff are fed from the LOAD terminals on the GFCI outlet. Once setup, test the outlet. Everything should be stone dead including your fridge.
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Jan 1, 2024 23:31
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thanks! i’m off to get supplies. one thing i didn’t mention that im fixing while im up here is the switch outlet driving the indoor lights comes through the ceiling, into a metal junction box to conduit to outlets for the lights. whoever did this was too lazy to just do it in the attic.
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Jan 1, 2024 23:50
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Faustian Bargain posted:thanks! i’m off to get supplies. one thing i didn’t mention that im fixing while im up here is the switch outlet driving the indoor lights comes through the ceiling, into a metal junction box to conduit to outlets for the lights. whoever did this was too lazy to just do it in the attic. I mean, that's super common. Assuming they used the right wire it's just an aesthetic/effort thing.
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Jan 2, 2024 00:07
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Faustian Bargain posted:i’ve got a 20a circuit in my garage that used to be a dedicated line for a pellet stove, but is currently powering a refrigerator. the previous owner for some reason also wired the indoor garage light outlets on the ceiling and the outdoor light fixture to this same circuit. Make sure that the wiring to the lights is actually 12awg, and that the switch is rated for 20A. For some reason people just think "oh it is lighting I'll use 14awg" ignoring that a short can absolutely occur in a lighting fixture and that the 20A breaker could let 40A of current go down that 14awg for a solid minute.
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Jan 2, 2024 00:48
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Faustian Bargain posted:i’ve got a 20a circuit in my garage that used to be a dedicated line for a pellet stove, but is currently powering a refrigerator. the previous owner for some reason also wired the indoor garage light outlets on the ceiling and the outdoor light fixture to this same circuit. How old is your fridge? Older ones like 20 years old can trip a GFCI with false positives.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:01
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kid sinister posted:How old is your fridge? Older ones like 20 years old can trip a GFCI with false positives. I'm on board with this. If it were my house and the fridge outlet was behind the fridge I wouldn't gfi protect that one. Would protect the second (new) one. There's no exception for fridges in garages like there is in kitchens and this would violate any NEC of the last 20 years, but would do it anyways (in my own home). I may be underestimating the risk of being grounded by a cement floor, but I've also cleaned out a rotten freezer before.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:16
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it’s a newer fridge. i actually need to find where that leg comes off. everything else goes into an outlet in the ceiling, then a run to the 2 light outlets in conduit and another run over to the exterior light. i know they are same circuit from flipping the breaker. so i’ll likely be putting the gfci in the ceiling which is not ideal if it trips.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:23
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Faustian Bargain posted:it’s a newer fridge. Just get a GFI breaker then probably. Def don't want the GFI on the ceiling.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:24
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definitely easier than getting out the gfci resetting pole. i’ve never messed with new breakers. will it be a pop out the old and in the new or is it more involved?
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Jan 2, 2024 01:34
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If you do have to put a fridge on a GFCI outlet, they do make GFCIs with alarms so you at least have a chance at saving your food. I recommend them for deep freezers too.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:39
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Ideally you don't want any continuous load like a fridge, lights, or ev charger on a gfci.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:39
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kid sinister posted:If you do have to put a fridge on a GFCI outlet, they do make GFCIs with alarms so you at least have a chance at saving your food. I recommend them for deep freezers too. You have way more than this much worth of stuff in your deep freezer, so just buy one now: https://www.webstaurantstore.com/all-points-72-1151-supco-ta7-battery-powered-temperature-alarm/117721151.html This is the standard-around-here backup alarm for freezers and walk in boxes. Yes, it's expensive. It's because it's not a complete piece of garbage.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:43
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okay, so what’s wrong with just slapping in a gfci outlet off the run where the light is, and then that should protect the outlet further down the run too? then i’m not loving with anything else existing, other than moving the conduited stuff into the attic.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:46
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Faustian Bargain posted:okay, so what’s wrong with just slapping in a gfci outlet off the run where the light is, and then that should protect the outlet further down the run too? Where's the light located? You can't put GFCIs on ceilings.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:48
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Faustian Bargain posted:definitely easier than getting out the gfci resetting pole. i’ve never messed with new breakers. will it be a pop out the old and in the new or is it more involved? It's can be a little more than a pain sometimes. In addition to landing the hot wire to the new breaker, you'll have to locate the associated neutral and land it to the breaker (the breaker will have a pigtail that needs to be connected to the "neutral" bar). You may need to extend the neutral which will require a bit of #12 wire (presumably) and a wire nut or wago. edit: If it's a newer panel it may have a gfi/afi ready bar that the neutral of the breaker connects to instead of a pigtail. The inside door of your breaker panel will say, would assume it's not if it's 10(?) or more years old. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 2, 2024 |
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Jan 2, 2024 01:52
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kid sinister posted:Where's the light located? You can't put GFCIs on ceilings. the interior garage lights are plugged into outlets in the ceiling in the same circuit.
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Jan 2, 2024 01:59
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Blackbeer posted:I'm on board with this. If it were my house and the fridge outlet was behind the fridge I wouldn't gfi protect that one. Would protect the second (new) one. You could also convert the 1 gang to a 2 gang box and just gfci the second one as protection for the downstream stuff and don't gfi the fridge. Or put a standalone gfi in its own box somewhere. Or the breaker as mentioned.
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Jan 2, 2024 02:15
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H110Hawk posted:You could also convert the 1 gang to a 2 gang box and just gfci the second one as protection for the downstream stuff and don't gfi the fridge. Or put a standalone gfi in its own box somewhere. This is the best plan. Any of these options.
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Jan 2, 2024 02:20
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Are wagos a good drop-in sub for wirenuts when fixing a kitchen appliance? I just redid the electrical cable on a 50 year old vitamix, and I didn't have wirenuts, so I just yoloed it with waygos.
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Jan 2, 2024 02:48
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H110Hawk posted:You could also convert the 1 gang to a 2 gang box and just gfci the second one as protection for the downstream stuff and don't gfi the fridge. Or put a standalone gfi in its own box somewhere. babyeatingpsychopath posted:This is the best plan. Any of these options. Faustian Bargain posted:okay, so what’s wrong with just slapping in a gfci outlet off the run where the light is, and then that should protect the outlet further down the run too?
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Jan 2, 2024 03:42
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HolHorsejob posted:Are wagos a good drop-in sub for wirenuts when fixing a kitchen appliance? I just redid the electrical cable on a 50 year old vitamix, and I didn't have wirenuts, so I just yoloed it with waygos. If the gauge of the wire is within the WAGO's specifications it should be fine.
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Jan 2, 2024 04:30
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Faustian Bargain posted:what’s wrong with what i posted here, which i think is the easiest? Mostly I'm just throwing out options for something where we only have a vague idea of what is actually there, how it's wired precisely, etc. Basically you're probably going to be fine whatever you do so long as you don't stick a gfci on the ceiling.
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Jan 2, 2024 04:39
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