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mlmp08 posted:This is good news for Russia, because building replacement ships means good paying jobs. (It was built in Gdansk, Poland)
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Dec 27, 2023 19:30
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Voyager I posted:Not relating to any specific incident, but it is kinda wild that treating the common soldier like absolute dogshit, well beyond the baseline levels of mistreatment common to the era, has been a facet of Russian culture across multiple centuries and systems of government. Russians have internalized the first noble truth of the Buddha but never decided to work beyond that.
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Dec 27, 2023 19:34
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Arishtat posted:drat. I am no overhead intel analyst but the damage done to the shore structures is consistent with a Very Large Bang such as one caused by an ammunition explosion. That's a fuckin huge crater beside where the white warehouse used to be. Wonder what they had stacked up there.... Would explain why it took a couple hours after the ship was hit for the big bang if it was stuff on the pier that the fire spread to.
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Dec 27, 2023 19:34
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OddObserver posted:(It was built in Gdansk, Poland) Doesn't matter, by losing an old ship made in Poland, this creates demand for Russian workers to get paid good wages by Russia to build new ships. This is good news for Russia!
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Dec 27, 2023 19:49
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The Door Frame posted:The "special military operation" has been going on for nearly 2 years and Russia has occupied Crimea for almost a decade. Launching another conventional missile at another Russian ship in the Black Sea is an escalation of what? It's providing the non export version which is BS tbh, it's just another missile with longer range.
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Dec 27, 2023 19:53
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It seems like we all listen to Lions Lead by Donkeys, so the question remains - how far back does it go?What was it like to be a common soldier of the Grand Duchy of Moscow?
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Dec 28, 2023 04:48
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Voyager I posted:It seems like we all listen to Lions Lead by Donkeys, so the question remains - how far back does it go?What was it like to be a common soldier of the Grand Duchy of Moscow? it was so bad that noone has signed up for that outfit in hundreds of years.
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Dec 28, 2023 05:35
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That sounds like a Question for the Legion
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Dec 28, 2023 05:36
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Newsweek is speculating that the uptick in losses among Russian jets might have something to do with the kind of aircraft Ukraine is now operating. https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-f16-russia-fighter-jets-crimea-su34-1855709 quote:A U.S. source told Newsweek on Wednesday that it was likely Ukraine had indeed received the first of the promised F-16s
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Dec 28, 2023 18:00
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psydude posted:Newsweek is speculating that the uptick in losses among Russian jets might have something to do with the kind of aircraft Ukraine is now operating. Maybe if a whole mess of other stuff was exploding also. I would expect that radars getting disappeared at a frightening rate would be the better sign, since the Ukrainians haven't had a real proper launch vehicle for HARMs.
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Dec 28, 2023 18:22
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CoffeeQaddaffi posted:Maybe if a whole mess of other stuff was exploding also. I would expect that radars getting disappeared at a frightening rate would be the better sign, since the Ukrainians haven't had a real proper launch vehicle for HARMs. The proper launch vehicle is attached just above the wrist
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Dec 28, 2023 19:19
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CoffeeQaddaffi posted:Maybe if a whole mess of other stuff was exploding also. I would expect that radars getting disappeared at a frightening rate would be the better sign, since the Ukrainians haven't had a real proper launch vehicle for HARMs. This. Also a Ukrainian air force spokesman denied that F-16s are operating in country: https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1740091716735258797
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Dec 28, 2023 20:45
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So if Ukraine wants to field F-16s, I'm under the impression that the following criteria have to be met. 1. An appropriate airfield, as in a runway that can handle the takeoff and landing lengths required. 2. A tarmac that's sufficiently sturdy to accommodate them. 3. Hangar facilities for storage and maintenance of the F-16s (likely hardened). 4. Storage for fuel and munitions (same as above). 5. The facilities to maintain all of the above to the standards required to operate F-16 which are more demanding than legacy Soviet airframes (equipment to clean/maintain/emergency repair runways). 6. Extensive security around the perimeter of the airfield to prevent spies from relaying times/positions of airframes, or saboteurs from possibly attacking them on the ground (think a TOW or Mortar) 7. A large enough exclusion zone around the airfield to prevent the above. All of which are significant investments in time, manpower, and money, and likely very easily spotted by the Russians through various surveillance means. So given the number of appropriate airfields there are within a useful distance of the front. . . what are they going to need to keep those airfields safe? I'm guessing you're going to want a Patriot battery to protect against ballistic/"hypersonic" missiles. A selection of Soviet legacy S-Launchers to protect against regular cruise missiles, and a few Gepards and MANPADS to take out any drones that want to make a visit. I assume that any airfield that they decide to use is going to be instantly missile/drone spammed as soon as it becomes obvious it's "the one" or maybe as soon as the airframes arrive. So what does Ukraine do? a. Prepare a number of airfields to try and spread out the potential damage? (but this requires even more anti-missile/drone defenses) b. Ready a decoy airfield to soak up the missiles? (a ton of time and effort to sacrifice a working airfield and waste some Russian missiles) c. Just accept that stopping the Russians from knocking out the actual airfield is going to cost a lot of missiles/Gepard rounds? d. Do they operate from one airfield that they try and protect, but makes quite clear to Russia where they are? e. Switch between a few airfields somewhat often? f. Or have the F-16s broken up into as many groups as possible to attempt to prevent an "all your eggs in one basket scenario", but sacrifice defense? A friend and I have been going back and forth on this, and I'm of the opinion that Ukraine does the, "this is our airfield, we're using this one, we're going to try and make an impenetrable air defense ring around it and possibly harden the facilities as much as possible", while my friend thinks that they're going to go with a multi-shell-game sort of setup with the F-16s being in groups and constantly moving between airfields, almost never taking off and landing at the same one. I'm thinking of some of the USAF goons talking about airfield upkeep the Cold War Thread, and how that would require too much effort to keep going at enough locations to make the shell game a viable option (or believable to the Russians). On the other hand it seems that Ukraine has been getting pretty good at air defense (think Kiev), and protecting one airfield against attacks is a lot easier than an entire capitol city.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:37
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Blistex posted:So if Ukraine wants to field F-16s, I'm under the impression that the following criteria have to be met. I won't pretend to know doctrine or real details, but I can speak to a few things. An "appropriate airfield" for an F-16 is not that difficult, and Ukraine assuredly has multiple. It's not like every takeoff will be maximum permitted takeoff weight from a high airport on a hot day - typical operation will not require insane runway lengths. Similarly, while military aircraft can have relatively high ground pressures, they're not ruinously so. The term of art here is "ACN"/"PCN" - aircraft/pavement classification number - but I couldn't find exact values for the F-16 or Ukrainian airports in a brief googling. (I couldn't find one for the Su-27 either, and while it has slightly larger wheels it also outmasses the F-16 by like 1.5, so I suspect it has generally similar ground pressures.) https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2312/afdpdf/NW_244_30NOV2023.pdf You can see it here after "RWY 16-34 [...]", PCN 60 F/A/W/T for McChord AFB. Big commercial operators have to care about those values too, so there are definitely reasonably high PCNs in operation out there. All that to say you can't operate F-16s off of turf but you can operate them off of plenty of international and regional airports and I'm sure their explicitly military airbases have reasonable tarmac. As for storage and maintenance, every airbase already has Jet-A. I don't know how hairy it is getting hydrazine out there or how often it has to be recharged on the F-16, but if you're also getting munitions out there those feel like very similar problems to me. Couldn't say about the doctrinal stuff, but my guess would be they'll tend to be concentrated (but possibly moving around regularly as in your e) since a) Russia has not demonstrated a strong ability to strike airfields b) easier to defend them all in one place and losing western equipment is very bad for Ukraine and something they try to avoid.
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Dec 28, 2023 22:42
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Re F-16s, how would Ukraine ensure that Russia can't just destroy the jets with missile strikes? Are hardened hangars a feasible/usual/recommended answer for this? Does Ukraine have such hangars? Or would it be something completely different, maybe just a bunch of SAMs (which could include Patriots) and/or switching up the airfields they use for the F-16s? Thinking about it, it seems Ukraine's existing planes haven't suffered massively so far from Russian missile attacks. Not sure exactly why, but my impression is Russia hasn't really tried to destroy the Ukrainian jets on the fields since these older jets can't do that much damage anyway. But this calculus could change when F-16s come online
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Dec 28, 2023 22:58
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Surround the airfield with as much air defense equipment to cover it. Hardened hangars are nice, but not invulnerable. Every F-16 destroyed will be another reason governments will hesitate to give further equipment. So losing them as opposed to Leopards is orders of magnitude worse optics wise.
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Dec 28, 2023 23:01
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jaete posted:Re F-16s, how would Ukraine ensure that Russia can't just destroy the jets with missile strikes? Are hardened hangars a feasible/usual/recommended answer for this? Does Ukraine have such hangars? Or would it be something completely different, maybe just a bunch of SAMs (which could include Patriots) and/or switching up the airfields they use for the F-16s? Russia prefers to blow up civilians rather than bother with silly things like fighter jets
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Dec 28, 2023 23:04
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jaete posted:Not sure exactly why, but my impression is Russia hasn't really tried to destroy the Ukrainian jets on the fields since these older jets can't do that much damage anyway. But this calculus could change when F-16s come online I'm pretty sure they would have destroyed the su24s that have been blowing up generals' hotels, ships and submarines at dock and army and fleet level HQs, if they were able to.
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Dec 28, 2023 23:19
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Voyager I posted:It seems like we all listen to Lions Lead by Donkeys, so the question remains - how far back does it go?What was it like to be a common soldier of the Grand Duchy of Moscow? The military of the Russian Czardom after Ivan the Terrible mostly employed a hereditary class of arquebusiers known as Streltsy and a feudal cavalry known as the landed army (Поместное войско). At least in theory, the peasants farmed and the nobles fought. Peter the Great disbanded this model (which, to be fair, was militarily terribly outdated by this point) and established an army of peasant levies who were conscripted for life. Initially commoners were eligible for promotions into the officer corps, but Catherine the Great abolished this (you'll notice that all Russian rulers termed "the great" were pretty consistently terrible to their subjects). In imperial Russia the nobility led and the peasants had to both farm and fight. You can put Nikolay Patruchev's description of the FSB as Russia's "new nobility" into this context. jaete posted:Re F-16s, how would Ukraine ensure that Russia can't just destroy the jets with missile strikes? Russia would probably love to destroy the Su-24s capable of launching Storm Shadows, but they don't seem to be able to get to them. I don't see any reason why the F-16s are any easier to take out.
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Dec 28, 2023 23:38
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jaete posted:Re F-16s, how would Ukraine ensure that Russia can't just destroy the jets with missile strikes? Are hardened hangars a feasible/usual/recommended answer for this? Does Ukraine have such hangars? Or would it be something completely different, maybe just a bunch of SAMs (which could include Patriots) and/or switching up the airfields they use for the F-16s? Part of it would just be not parking the jets in the exact same spot every day. Russia's ability to rapidly target distant targets is not great. If they are operating on 4 day old satellite images of the airbase by the time they launch their cruise missiles then dispersing the aircraft around the base and regularly moving them offers a decent measure of protection. Airbases are usually big and Russia doesn't have the capability to saturate one in the way that the US has been able to. They cant fire off 150 Tomahawks to comprehensively flatten an airbase. That said, its pretty safe to say that any base that hosts their F-16's will have long and short range SAM's covering it, search radar, aircraft on alert in addition to dispersal, camouflage, decoys etc. All the things they have been doing to protect their high value military assets throughout the war.
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Dec 29, 2023 00:31
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I imagine we're also going to see some top notch F-16 decoys parked around the place as well. Does Airfix make 1:1 snap models?
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Dec 29, 2023 00:34
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They aren't operating their legacy MiGs and Sukhois off grass fields--there are still Ukrainian airbases in operation.
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Dec 29, 2023 00:52
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It is possible to use infrared satellite imagery to spot missile launches? How much warning would you get?
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Dec 29, 2023 00:53
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The Lone Badger posted:It is possible to use infrared satellite imagery to spot missile launches? How much warning would you get? 
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Dec 29, 2023 00:58
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That’s what DSP and SBIRS are for https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-Based_Infrared_System https://www.spoc.spaceforce.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/2381746/defense-support-program-satellites
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Dec 29, 2023 01:01
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Everyone who comes to Cheyenne Mountain wants to see the normal cool stuff, the aliens and the Stargate. Nobody ever wants to see the really cool stuff like the missile infrared detection systems or the wooden duck. 
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Dec 29, 2023 01:39
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that aint NSA! we need an NRO octupus patch for when it's appropriate
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Dec 29, 2023 01:44
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:that aint NSA! we need an NRO octupus patch for when it's appropriate asking the exact question that got someone into a lot of trouble is kind of in that wheelhouse tho
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Dec 29, 2023 01:50
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Just start building a field juuuuust within cruise missile range and let it eat a ton of missiles. Better than hitting cities.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:13
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Arc Light posted:the wooden duck. You have my attention
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Dec 29, 2023 02:33
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Crab Dad posted:Just start building a field juuuuust within cruise missile range and let it eat a ton of missiles. Better than hitting cities. Just within air launched range, so maybe you can snag a few SUs as well.
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Dec 29, 2023 03:15
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Can the Ukranian F16s NordVPN into an AWACS/GlobalHawk/Triton and get AMRAAM firing solutions without turning their RADAR on? Cause that would shut down the southern approaches with all the NATO stuff hanging over the sea. Also how good are AMRAAMs against helos?
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Dec 29, 2023 03:24
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Stravag posted:You have my attention A tool of unimaginable power in the wrong hands, locked under a mountain for the good of mankind. Only the most worthy* may lay eyes upon it. *The maintenance crew mostly, and sometimes Navy cats who want to reenlist in the maintenance rowboat. It's a floating buoy in the Cheyenne Mountain Complex water reservoir. Makes it easier to verify the water level because the surface of the water is normally pitch black and smooth as glass.   Way cooler than the aliens, which are definitely also there, source: trust me bro**. **Probably a joke, right? Almost definitely. But the wooden duck sounds like a joke too and it's very very real. So now you'll always wonder. Arc Light fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 03:39
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Arc Light posted:Everyone who comes to Cheyenne Mountain wants to see the normal cool stuff, the aliens and the Stargate. I can neither confirm nor deny that there is a "Stargate Command" placard on a broom closet, which holds... brooms. Sometimes it holds a mop and bucket too.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:04
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Arc Light posted:Everyone who comes to Cheyenne Mountain wants to see the normal cool stuff, the aliens and the Stargate. The industrial and life support stuff is infinitely more interesting than command center stuff.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:16
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Arc Light posted:Everyone who comes to Cheyenne Mountain wants to see the normal cool stuff, the aliens and the Stargate. *sips coffee mug* "you know there's a sperm bank?"
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Dec 29, 2023 04:18
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Alan Smithee posted:*sips coffee mug* Easy there John Arbuckle.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:38
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Alan Smithee posted:*sips coffee mug* Somebody left their sock down there, I see 
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Dec 29, 2023 05:01
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:that aint NSA! we need an NRO octupus patch for when it's appropriate Go post on War Thunder about it.
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Dec 29, 2023 05:49
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Blistex posted:So what does Ukraine do? Probably all of the above and plenty more all at the same time.
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Dec 29, 2023 05:51
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