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When you don't translate the individual bits separately you end up with Charlemagne
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Dec 21, 2023 20:50
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Eldoop posted:Even if you try very hard, it's tough to really accurately preserve the pronunciation of foreign names without distorting them at least a bit, because your tongue just isn't used to making those sounds or putting particular sounds next to each other. To do it consistently takes practice and focus, and for the most part that just hasn't been enough of a priority for people to put in that kind of effort. It's pretty common to even just outright "translate" names into your native language, like when we talk about "Tsar Alexander" or "Frederick the Great". Two thousand years of people badly pronouncing bad pronunciations of foreign names (and having to stick to those bad pronunciations so people will know who they're talking about) and you can wind up pretty far afield. Also, the English version is the Anglicized form of the Latinized form of the Hellenized version of the original Persian.
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Dec 21, 2023 21:18
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Eldoop posted:Even if you try very hard, it's tough to really accurately preserve the pronunciation of foreign names without distorting them at least a bit, because your tongue just isn't used to making those sounds or putting particular sounds next to each other. To do it consistently takes practice and focus, and for the most part that just hasn't been enough of a priority for people to put in that kind of effort. It's pretty common to even just outright "translate" names into your native language, like when we talk about "Tsar Alexander" or "Frederick the Great". Two thousand years of people badly pronouncing bad pronunciations of foreign names (and having to stick to those bad pronunciations so people will know who they're talking about) and you can wind up pretty far afield. Most European languages translate established regal and biblical names to more familiar ones. Finnish for example translates Charles to Kaarle and George to Yrjö. (Apparently Charles III is now just "Charles III" even in Finnish press and many people think that's trampling over well established precedence and I very much agree.) There are myriad ways to translate John - many languages do Johannes based on the Greek Ioannes, Finns do Juha, Jussi, Hannes etc., Germans say Hans, Johann, Hänsel, Russians say Ivan, Spanish says Juan etc. The best one I've encountered is how Czech does Honza and we had a lot of fun over how many Honzas we had in attendance when I was in Prague in an international party.
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Dec 21, 2023 22:12
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cheetah7071 posted:When you don't translate the individual bits separately you end up with Charlemagne Emperor Big Carl is how history should have been.
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Dec 21, 2023 22:44
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Big Chuck to his friends
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Dec 21, 2023 23:01
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cheetah7071 posted:When you don't translate the individual bits separately you end up with Charlemagne
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Dec 21, 2023 23:33
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Chuck the Big Cheese is right there.
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Dec 22, 2023 02:33
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barbecue at the folks posted:The best one I've encountered is how Czech does Honza and we had a lot of fun over how many Honzas we had in attendance when I was in Prague in an international party. Scarodactyl fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Dec 22, 2023 |
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Dec 22, 2023 03:18
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Gen. Ripper posted:Whitewashing the reputations of maligned Roman emperors seems to be fairly common, but are/were there any "Actually Trajan* sucked and was the worst ever" takes? Vespasian is the probably in the upper tier of Roman Emperors, if there is such a tier list. His last words are known to be "An emperor ought to die standing" then promptly died after a severe case of diarrhoea.
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Dec 31, 2023 03:15
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Lord Lambeth posted:Vespasian is the probably in the upper tier of Roman Emperors, if there is such a tier list. His last words are known to be "An emperor ought to die standing" then promptly died after a severe case of diarrhoea. I WAS going to correct you and say he was the "drat, I fear I am becoming a god" guy, but upon further research it turns out that while he DID allegedly make that joke near the end of his life, they weren't his LAST last words. Man, dude got two really good pithy sayings right at the end, what a king
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Dec 31, 2023 20:07
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Here's a relevant video where a Latin speaker points out that just replacing the soft C with a K and patting yourself on the back is kinda weird. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjcX3MVSdyA
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Dec 31, 2023 20:30
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I will still die mad about Kilikia
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Dec 31, 2023 21:10
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:I will still die mad about Kilikia You're breaking my heart
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Dec 31, 2023 21:45
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I’m just gonna keep using soft c’s unashamedly. Not like the language stayed the same between 300 BCE and 300 CE anyway, not to mention half the empire speaking Greek or retaining local languages. We transitioned to soft c for a reason (it sounds cooler) and it doesn’t need to be any other way.
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Jan 1, 2024 03:23
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Hard K is more fun and thus correct.
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Jan 1, 2024 03:39
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Asterite34 posted:I WAS going to correct you and say he was the "drat, I fear I am becoming a god" guy, but upon further research it turns out that while he DID allegedly make that joke near the end of his life, they weren't his LAST last words. Man, dude got two really good pithy sayings right at the end, what a king Also had the amazing put down when asked why he refused to arrest/kill one of his critics: “I won’t kill a dog for barking”.
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Jan 1, 2024 04:11
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Cyrus is written KRS(H) in the bible and they pronounced it Koresh when I was in bible class in grade school. Then in English I heard it with the soft C as Cyrus. I did not bother to find out which, if any, is correct because I never had to say it out loud. 2024 goals.
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Jan 1, 2024 17:00
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Blame the Normans. The soft c before i, e, or y comes from French.
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Jan 1, 2024 17:04
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Deteriorata posted:Blame the Normans. The soft c before i, e, or y comes from French. Th fact that every other romance language including Sardinian, the most conservative, I’ve heard also dropped a lot of hard Cs suggests to me it came from later latin before norman was even a thing
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Jan 1, 2024 19:21
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Modern, etymologically descended words still provide evidence of how it once sounded. It's pronounced "c-zar"
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Jan 1, 2024 20:10
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kiminewt posted:Cyrus is written KRS(H) in the bible and they pronounced it Koresh when I was in bible class in grade school. Then in English I heard it with the soft C as Cyrus. I don't know how you correctly pronounce the vowels, but it remains something like Kipros in both Greek and Turkish.
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Jan 2, 2024 08:25
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According to Wikipediaquote:The name Cyrus is a Latinized form derived from the Greek-language name Κῦρος (Kỹros), which itself was derived from the Old Persian name Kūruš.[19][20] The name and its meaning have been recorded within ancient inscriptions in different languages. The ancient Greek historians Ctesias and Plutarch stated that Cyrus was named from the Sun (Kuros), a concept which has been interpreted as meaning "like the Sun" (Khurvash) by noting its relation to the Persian noun for Sun, khor, while using -vash as a suffix of likeness.[21] Karl Hoffmann has suggested a translation based on the meaning of an Indo-European root "to humiliate", and accordingly, the name "Cyrus" means "humiliator of the enemy in verbal contest".[20] Another possible Iranian derivation would mean "the young one, child", similar to Kurdish kur ("son, little boy") or Ossetian i-gur-un ("to be born") and kur (young bull).[22] In the Persian language and especially in Iran, Cyrus's name is spelled as کوروش (Kūroš, [kuːˈɾoʃ]).[23] In the Bible, he is referred to in the Hebrew language as Koresh (כורש).[24] Some pieces of evidence suggest that Cyrus is Kay Khosrow, a legendary Persian king of the Kayanian dynasty and a character in Shahnameh, a Persian epic.[25]
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Jan 2, 2024 08:51
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People well into the modern era had no qualms about just making up a vaguely similar sounding but more local name for whatever foreign person they were writing about. Cyrus seems to be at least somewhat accurate to the original Persian.
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Jan 2, 2024 09:04
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We should have kept doing it. Now English speakers have to put up with afronts to God like "Gdańsk."
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Jan 2, 2024 09:57
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Just going to start pronouncing all Latin c's with the Malaysian c sound. Julius Cheaser Chichero Marchus Porchius Chato
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Jan 2, 2024 11:10
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We need to go back to giving every person of note a Latin name. If it’s still good enough for Confucius it’s still good enough for everybody else.
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Jan 2, 2024 11:20
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Groda posted:We should have kept doing it. Now English speakers have to put up with afronts to God like "Gdańsk." I hate local translations of (mostly royal) names with a passion and I really like that we're not referring to Charles III as Karel in Dutch and Karl in German (and the scandi languages) and other local forms elsewhere
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Jan 2, 2024 11:50
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Groda posted:We should have kept doing it. Now English speakers have to put up with afronts to God like "Gdańsk." There are, well, other reasons not to use the German names for places that are now in independent Poland, though.
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Jan 2, 2024 12:32
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Who said anything about German names? That was the English name for hundreds of years. Now it has an accent over the "n" out of missplaced sympathy.
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Jan 2, 2024 12:52
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galagazombie posted:We need to go back to giving every person of note a Latin name. If it’s still good enough for Confucius it’s still good enough for everybody else. I think it's cool and good for scholars to know all the OG names but it feels insane to me that some English speakers have taken up the stance that unlike virtually every other language, English needs to incorporate every other system. Maybe it's just because the languages I'm next most familiar with are Japanese and Chinese which literally cannot pronounce my name at all and that's just like... not a big deal. It's fine. I don't need either Chinese or English to use "Deutschland," and I don't even really see the value in trying to make them.
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Jan 2, 2024 14:12
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My favourite italian city is Leghorn
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Jan 2, 2024 14:42
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"Oily Josh, considered the saviour of mankind by the Oilist religion, is often referred to as Josh from Watchtower but was actually born in the city of Meathouse. He was later crossfastened on Skullhill."
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Jan 2, 2024 15:10
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the only nation which never, ever does local translations out of ideological reasons is north korea
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Jan 2, 2024 15:10
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FreudianSlippers posted:"Oily Josh, considered the saviour of mankind by the Oilist religion, is often referred to as Josh from Watchtower but was actually born in the city of Meathouse. He was later crossfastened on Skullhill." Islam sounds even more like something out of Dune when you do this. "The Submitters pray toward The Cube."
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Jan 2, 2024 15:36
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During the winter olympics in Turin, a bunch of Swedish journalists tried to be extra respectful and started saying Torino instead. Then it was pointed out that the city is actually called Turin in the local dialect - pronounced almost exactly like how Swedes pronounce Turin - and everyone felt a bit sheepish for a bit.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:31
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Anyway something actually interesting https://twitter.com/DrMichaelJTayl1/status/1741513898912596046
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Jan 2, 2024 16:41
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Tulip posted:Anyway something actually interesting thats dope
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Jan 2, 2024 16:42
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Tulip posted:Anyway something actually interesting You left out the best part. https://twitter.com/DrMichaelJTayl1/status/1741513902385484262 https://twitter.com/DrMichaelJTayl1/status/1741513905690550587 https://twitter.com/DrMichaelJTayl1/status/1741513907552854104
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Jan 2, 2024 17:40
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Tulip posted:Islam sounds even more like something out of Dune when you do this. "The Submitters pray toward The Cube." Not sure if it's the joke here but Dune is extremely blatantly based on Islam, Paul's whole story is basically a mix of Muhammed and Lawrence of Arabia. The Fremen are literal Zensunnis and are noted to be descendants of forcibly displaced Muslims still pissed they were denied the Hajj.
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Jan 3, 2024 08:35
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Hippocrass posted:You left out the best part. Not sure I buy that the Romans were less "racist" (as applicable as that term is to the ancient world) than the Carthaginians. There are surely many, presumably unrecorded, cases of Celts or other peoples who fought for the Romans and would have been looked down upon by their own commanders. Just seems more like a case where some guy felt under appreciated and switched sides, like an ancient Benedict Arnold.
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Jan 3, 2024 14:16
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