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Volguus posted:Everything is passed by value in Java. I was just Kramering in to post this. It's all pass-by-value, but a lot of those values are references.
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Jan 1, 2024 21:27
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Just curious but what made you decide on Java over like, C#, Python, golang, rust
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Jan 1, 2024 21:27
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Unless you're looking to work on legacy systems I would just go with Kotlin if entering the Java world now.
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Jan 1, 2024 21:32
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Golbez posted:On a related note, if I were to start any other new language this year, what would be recommended? I'm also thinking of learning Python. Maybe TypeScript? It’s on the opposite end of the “compiler that can do anything” spectrum from PHP, and it might be immediately useful for you in place of JavaScript.
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Jan 1, 2024 22:35
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thotsky posted:Unless you're looking to work on legacy systems I would just go with Kotlin if entering the Java world now. Learning Kotlin without Java is like learning TypeScript without JavaScript which is to say that if you're just building fart apps you might be ok but the second you need to understand what the language is doing under the covers you're utterly hosed.
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Jan 1, 2024 23:35
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its a hard prereq. if the lang is based upon some bytecode or transpiled or whatever to some other lang, gotta know other lang first
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Jan 1, 2024 23:40
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Or you can always learn Haskell, as a comedy option.
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Jan 2, 2024 00:02
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I haven't looked into it because I've worked at pretty much exclusively Ruby/Python shops since '15 but is Java still mostly used by legacy shops like eBay, Oracle, Google or are there startups using it in 2024
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Jan 2, 2024 00:02
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no, startupland has a distinct preference for p-langs
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Jan 2, 2024 00:10
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There are absolutely startups using Spring Cloud/Spring Boot/Dropwizard
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Jan 2, 2024 00:59
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there are startups literally using haskell, its the law of small numbers. they're just generally more heterogenous than vast corps because they dont take orders. but the "we wanna just do business" contingent definitively mostly does plain p langs
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Jan 2, 2024 01:04
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gbut posted:Or you can always learn Haskell, as a comedy option. I used Haskell at Facebook almost a decade ago now (https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haxl) and afaik it’s still being used there. It unironically owned and I’d love to work on something where it made the absolute tiniest bit of sense to use again and I could be that guy. (beyond puzzles or whatever)
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Jan 2, 2024 16:20
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I know Bloomberg has a handful of production systems written in Haskell as well.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:26
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In my experience with startups and fairly recent job searching, Go is the new hotness for server-side code and Python still exists. Ruby shops are becoming more and more rare. Ofc, Node-based shops are as common as ever. Big but not explicitly tech companies are just as Java-focused as they've been for the last two decades. They have a lot of infra built up around Java and will force acquisitions to migrate.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:46
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Oh, I’d love to use it in production myself. It just feels like there’s a large gap between starting to learn it and knowing it well enough to be hirable at a Haskell shop. I’ve been moving in the opposite direction and I’m back in the PHP land now.  But, so help me dog, I’ll find a way to shimmy it into my work someday, somehow.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:50
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We’re moving toward writing all new components in rust and learning Haskell has been fun in the context of learning how to rust better.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:00
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After writing Haskell for fun, I can't imagine wanting to have it running in prod. Small code change and suddenly your code causes infinity thunks to appear and the performance is dead -> not my idea of fun 
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Jan 2, 2024 19:32
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bob dobbs is dead posted:there are startups literally using haskell, its the law of small numbers. they're just generally more heterogenous than vast corps because they dont take orders. but the "we wanna just do business" contingent definitively mostly does plain p langs What's a p lang? I haven't encountered that term before.
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Jan 2, 2024 22:12
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python, perl, php, pruby, pjavascript...
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Jan 2, 2024 22:13
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I don't see Processing, nor Pure Data, nor Prolog in that list. Shame.
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Jan 2, 2024 22:21
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PL/I or GTFO.
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Jan 2, 2024 22:23
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https://exqomaniarules.bandcamp.com/track/the-letter-p-freestyle-sean-price-mf-doom-kay-slay-tribute
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Jan 2, 2024 22:24
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gbut posted:I don't see Processing, nor Pure Data, nor Prolog in that list. Shame. that's because none of these have the soul of a plang
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Jan 3, 2024 00:07
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I still think p lang is better than all the plangs
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Jan 3, 2024 00:24
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i was a long time java hater but gave in for the figgies and now after 5 years with it it's not that bad?? even fine to good?? java 17+ and modern coding style cuts down on a lot of baggage, and well yea there's a base level of boilerplate that's never going away but i rarely encounter pants on head stupid things in the language or ecosystem like js and python (both of which i still touch just not primarily) kotlin looks cool but modern java and spring boot makes slangin web backendy stuff easy and predictable send help?
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Jan 3, 2024 01:08
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there were lotsa pants-on-head stupid things 10, 20 years ago, they just did great cullings and you're working in a codebase without them, presumably, if you're in a java 17 shop
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Jan 3, 2024 01:09
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we're still lugging around a ~15 year old java 8 (now 11!) monolith and that is certainly more painful so i'm familiar, but honestly i still might prefer it to a lot of the other existing codebases i've dealt with. old school java has a lot of cruft to wade through but the tooling is great and most things are (painfully) explicit/verbose but yea most new big initiatives are wholly detached from that and jettison most of the baggage and is a huge breath of fresh air, comparatively it's me, i'm the java apologist
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Jan 3, 2024 01:18
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Guinness posted:we're still lugging around a ~15 year old java 8 (now 11!) monolith and that is certainly more painful My only professional experience with Java was an at the time 16 year old Java monolith that had been recently upgraded to/made compatible with Java 8. I did not like it very much Maybe it sucks less now
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Jan 3, 2024 01:22
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Honestly, as I've gotten older, I've minded verbosity and tediousness in my languages less and less. Which isn't to say that Java was right all along with how verbose it was, mind, just that it's not the horrible sin I used to think it was.
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Jan 3, 2024 01:36
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Kotlin is pretty awesome, and it seemed to force Java to catch up with the times. Non-reified generics in the JVM might be my biggest gripe, which isn't that big of a deal, and you can kind of hack it with inlining. So maybe Gradle is my least favorite part of working in the JVM? I dunno.TooMuchAbstraction posted:Honestly, as I've gotten older, I've minded verbosity and tediousness in my languages less and less. Which isn't to say that Java was right all along with how verbose it was, mind, just that it's not the horrible sin I used to think it was. Developers will always find ways to add accidental complexity that is more painful than the type system or syntax quirks of a runtime 
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Jan 3, 2024 02:04
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Honestly, as I've gotten older, I've minded verbosity and tediousness in my languages less and less. Which isn't to say that Java was right all along with how verbose it was, mind, just that it's not the horrible sin I used to think it was. I don't like verbosity, but I like jumping through ridiculous hoops to avoid writing an extra 8 characters a hell of a lot less.
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Jan 3, 2024 03:05
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I don’t enjoy Java, but my old mentor was a wizard with Springboot, and could perform magic just by adding a couple lines to a config. His speed on feature development was like nothing else.
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Jan 3, 2024 03:59
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lifg posted:I don’t enjoy Java, but my old mentor was a wizard with Springboot, and could perform magic just by adding a couple lines to a config. His speed on feature development was like nothing else. Those tactical tornadoes are the bane of my existence these days, but at least they keep me employed.
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Jan 3, 2024 04:04
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luchadornado posted:Those tactical tornadoes are the bane of my existence these days, but at least they keep me employed.  
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Jan 3, 2024 06:57
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At my startup (15 engineers) we use both Python and Kotlin in different services. I come from Python but after a couple years I have to say I really prefer Kotlin. Of course, two backend langs at our size causes some organizational challenges, but that's another post. Been tempted to learn Go as we do a lot of "Kubernetes-native" crap and it's more or less the only language in that community, but I've resisted so far
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Jan 3, 2024 08:56
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luchadornado posted:Those tactical tornadoes are the bane of my existence these days, but at least they keep me employed. They have their use, but I absolutely loving hate picking up the debris.
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Jan 3, 2024 11:58
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Xarn posted:They have their use, but I absolutely loving hate picking up the debris. If they're not utilized properly they cost an org 10x their rate for their output. I'd rather not have any, especially without strong review guidelines.
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Jan 3, 2024 13:32
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leper khan posted:If they're not utilized properly they cost an org 10x their rate for their output. I'd rather not have any, especially without strong review guidelines. The true definition of a 10x coder.
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Jan 3, 2024 17:45
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It's 2024 and I still hate the slack redesign
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Jan 3, 2024 21:25
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Hadlock posted:It's 2024 and I still hate the slack redesign It's 2024 and I still wish we were using IRC and BBS
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Jan 3, 2024 21:35
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