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Yeah Bill Ferny and the migrants coming up the Greenway I reckon
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Jan 3, 2024 17:21
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The orcs are a good case of the negative side of Tolkien's obsessive reworking and overthinking. "inherently evil creations of Morgoth" is simple and easy to work with and is perfectly consistent with the text of the stories.
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Jan 3, 2024 17:23
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The music isn’t creation in itself. It’s subcreation or, between the lines, fantasy. Eru says to the Ainur: “I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other.” What makes it creation is his subsequent “Eä! Let these things be!” and his dispatch of the Secret Fire. Before that there is no real world, the Music, powerful as it seems, is just a great gig in the sky. “These things” ipso facto includes orcs—God signed off on them, however you look at it. Fans read too much into Tolkien being embarrassed that theologically literate readers needled him about this. The “problem” of orcs is just the problem of evil writ small and nasty. Tolkien never says this explicitly but imo orcs don’t all share a common origin. The elvish root of the word is quite unspecific and suggests something that inspires terror, not like “mutant elf” or “denizen of Orcland” or something. The key point that unites orcs is not descent from a single source (unlike the Children of Iluvatar with their proudly remembered lists of patriarchs going back millennia), but direct and dominating spiritual influence by a power opposed to God. Only once do you hear an orc brag who their dad was, unlike the good guys who can’t shut up about it. I don’t think there’s any reason to suppose they’re all necessarily related in any way beyond the instrumental. elves, humans, subterranean heat and slime in a biped-shaped meat bag, whatever. Orcs don’t give a poo poo, they just want to know your rank and serial number. If Sauron’s power had endured then whatever elves, men, hobbits etc fell under it would probably have become orcs—objects of terror to those who refused to serve the devil.
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Jan 3, 2024 17:57
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skasion posted:. If Sauron’s power had endured then whatever elves, men, hobbits etc fell under it would probably have become orcs—objects of terror to those who refused to serve the devil. Yeah That makes sense a lot
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Jan 3, 2024 17:58
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Interesting thought especially given the Rankin-Bass visual interpretation of orcs, particularly the ones in Mordor, which all looked so physically distinctive they may as well have been different species.
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Jan 3, 2024 18:01
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The theme of subcreation requires that Orcs, too, are children of Eru. Elves, who mostly wrote the historical texts, are uncomfortable with what it really means for Melkor and his abominations to have been part of the divine plan for Arda all along. Basically the dilemma Tolkien ruminated on until his death was theodicy, famously not an easy problem to solve. That's why I think that assuming an unreliable narrator is the most elegant solution.
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Jan 3, 2024 18:05
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I like the idea that the Eagles suddenly saving Frodo and Sam was a cover for friendly or newly liberated orcs taking them to Aragorn and co even if the whole Last Ringbearer shtick doesn’t interest me much.
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Jan 3, 2024 18:28
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Trin Tragula posted:You are the guy who wrote The Last Ringbearer and I claim my Ł5 I am not he, sorry.
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Jan 4, 2024 00:10
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Anshu posted:I am not he, sorry. But are you she or they? We've seen this loophole.
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Jan 4, 2024 02:47
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Hungry Squirrel posted:But are you she or they? We've seen this loophole. I am a he, but not the specific he being referred to, which is the author of The Last Ringbearer, Kirill Eskov.
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Jan 4, 2024 03:21
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WoodrowSkillson posted:If orcs were created way back in the early days of Arda and then only came to prominence once Morgoth is in Angband than there is no real conflict in terms of orcish souls. They are akin to the Dwarves before Eru blessed them with souls despite Aule's impatience.
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Jan 4, 2024 03:30
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Two basic conundra Orcs are robots/golems made of rock and slime by Morgoth -> wait that means either they have souls and free will, or they only move when Morgoth moves them like chessmen -> Morgoth shouldn't be able to create souls or independent free will ->  Orcs are corrupted Elves or Men who have souls and reproduce autonomously -> that means they have free will and could theoretically not be evil -> that means the good guys slaughtering them indiscriminately is all kinds of ethically problematic -> 
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Jan 4, 2024 03:53
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If they're treated as elves for afterlife purposes, is the good guys indiscriminately slaughtering them during war ethically problematic? The elf afterlife is basically a time out in the Halls of Mandos, then getting reincarnated in Valinor. On the face of it, that fairly desirable as far as how to rehabilitate an elf orc soul. That has a bunch of problematic analogs, but seems to follow from the premises (a la fire and brimstone preachers being happy when baptized babies die before they get a chance to do some sinning) e: is there anything ethically different if instead of stabbing orcs with swords, the good guys were zapping them with transporter beams that teleported them to Valinor? Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 04:22
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It might be interesting to read all of the different denizens of middle earth as having different degrees or kinds of original sin - non-Numenorean humans have the taint of serving the shadow; orcs have that merely to a greater degree; the Noldor have the taint of the kinslaying, the Elves of the twilight and shadow carry the sin of having not heeded the call. The Dwarves have the burden of Aule's disobedience in their creation. The Numenoreans were given absolution to a degree, but almost all of them threw that away and even the line of Elendil has "mingled with lesser men" in this sense. The Orcs' big challenge, up until the end of LOTR at least, is that they have never had existence outside of the shadow: Morgoth and later Sauron have perpetually kept redemption out of their reach and built a society for them where they don't have the opportunity to use their free will (incidentally, the glimpses of it we see in LOTR show that the orcs are controlled through fear, violence, and bureaucracy). One of the interesting questions at the conclusion of LOTR, if we're contemplating quasi-catholic theodicy in the text, is if any of them will use that free will to pursue the light in any way. Maybe the terror of freedom is what drives them mad at the destruction of the ring.
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Jan 4, 2024 05:19
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If the same thing happens to Orcs as happens to Elves when they die then it is in fact a moral imperative to kill them as quickly as possible to send them to the Halls of Mandos where their tortured souls can be healed of the trauma of being born an Orc. Grab a sword and let's get at 'er. You're really doing them a favor! (I feel gross having typed that.)
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Jan 4, 2024 05:25
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Lemniscate Blue posted:If the same thing happens to Orcs as happens to Elves when they die then it is in fact a moral imperative to kill them as quickly as possible to send them to the Halls of Mandos where their tortured souls can be healed of the trauma of being born an Orc. Grab a sword and let's get at 'er. You're really doing them a favor!
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Jan 4, 2024 05:31
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Try this one: Orcishness is a spiritual condition, not a race. This condition has been observed in modern times as well, with distressing frequency. One can succumb to it more or less easily under certain social conditions, and the various Dark Lords understood that better than anyone and set it up on purpose, perhaps with a little bit of the leftover essence of Morgoth to speed things along by inducing despair. So some Orcs are Elves, and some are Men, and some are Dwarves, and perhaps there's some other, lesser-known Children out there as well. Some were born into an Orcish society and look the part, while others still carry on the practices of their native society, whose rulers' alignment with the Shadow they enthusiastically complied with. Those raised Orc could defect, though their prospects would be grim even if they succeed and far worse if they fail, and to even think about it they'd need to overcome conditioning arising from the worst generational trauma ever. Noldor and Sindar writers don't believe that Elves could go over to the Shadow, and more importantly don't want to believe, and yet for all his might and art, Morgoth's power to dominate stops short of depriving other beings of free will.
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Jan 4, 2024 06:20
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There's a reason the Orcs all talk like modern Englishmen (at least in LOTR)
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Jan 4, 2024 06:53
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Arc Hammer posted:
Morgoth probably ordered his orcs to sew a nice nightgown for the lady orc, put on some Marvin Gaye records and spread some rose petals on the bed.
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Jan 4, 2024 06:57
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Alhazred posted:You can't just put a man in a bedroom with a lady orc. Let's get Udun
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Jan 4, 2024 07:36
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Bongo Bill posted:Try this one: Orcishness is a spiritual condition, not a race. [snip] That's a good point, so I will amend my earlier post to say that, absent necromantic interference by the likes of Morgoth, Sauron, or the Witch-King, orcs of each Kindred would be summoned to the section of Mandos prepared for that Kindred, with the possibility of refusing the summons. My previous post covers what happens to Elvish orcs; Mannish orcs could I suspect refuse the summons but would not be able to linger unbodied for long before departing the circles of the world; and of Dwarvish orcs, we know too little about the normal Dwarvish post-life arrangements to say anything with certainty.
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Jan 4, 2024 07:51
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Anshu posted:That's a good point, so I will amend my earlier post to say that, absent necromantic interference by the likes of Morgoth, Sauron, or the Witch-King, orcs of each Kindred would be summoned to the section of Mandos prepared for that Kindred, with the possibility of refusing the summons. My previous post covers what happens to Elvish orcs; Mannish orcs could I suspect refuse the summons but would not be able to linger unbodied for long before departing the circles of the world; and of Dwarvish orcs, we know too little about the normal Dwarvish post-life arrangements to say anything with certainty. The Elves thought the Dwarves returned to the stone after death, but the Dwarves thought that they had their own special wing of the Halls of Mandos where Aulë collected them until the end of the world. They'll all be the helping Aulë and the other Valar create the new, unfallen Arda that everyone will appreciate more because they saw how bad the first version went.
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Jan 4, 2024 08:22
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Lemniscate Blue posted:The Elves thought the Dwarves returned to the stone after death, but the Dwarves thought that they had their own special wing of the Halls of Mandos where Aulë collected them until the end of the world. They'll all be the helping Aulë and the other Valar create the new, unfallen Arda that everyone will appreciate more because they saw how bad the first version went. Right, but we don't know what happens if a Dwarf refuses the summons to Mandos, if they can linger unbodied like Elves do, or something else.
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Jan 4, 2024 08:44
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CommonShore posted:The Orcs' big challenge, up until the end of LOTR at least, is that they have never had existence outside of the shadow: Morgoth and later Sauron have perpetually kept redemption out of their reach and built a society for them where they don't have the opportunity to use their free will (incidentally, the glimpses of it we see in LOTR show that the orcs are controlled through fear, violence, and bureaucracy). One of the interesting questions at the conclusion of LOTR, if we're contemplating quasi-catholic theodicy in the text, is if any of them will use that free will to pursue the light in any way. Maybe the terror of freedom is what drives them mad at the destruction of the ring. The Misty Mountains orcs have presumably been free since Isildur twocked the Ring, and though we never get any details on Gundabad it's thriving enough to send an army to the Lonely Mountain. Though Sauron might have got control back at that point; "his arm has grown long..."
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Jan 4, 2024 09:52
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Data Graham posted:Two basic conundra The solution is obvious: free will is an illusion.
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Jan 4, 2024 12:22
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Data Graham posted:Two basic conundra Abbot Amalric has your back on that second one. (Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.)
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Jan 4, 2024 12:31
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Zopotantor posted:Abbot Amalric has your back on that second one. (Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.) quote:‘No, I don’t know,’ said Gorbag’s voice. ‘The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don’t enquire how it’s done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgűl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes ’em; they’re His favourites nowadays, so it’s no use grumbling. I tell you, it’s no game serving down in the city.’ Everyone forgets this passage in this discussion, but it's pretty clear that Orcs at least believe that when they die their spirit goes to the Outer Dark, possibly to await rebirth again as an Orc. Bongo Bill posted:Try this one: Orcishness is a spiritual condition, not a race. This condition has been observed in modern times as well, with distressing frequency. One can succumb to it more or less easily under certain social conditions, and the various Dark Lords understood that better than anyone and set it up on purpose, perhaps with a little bit of the leftover essence of Morgoth to speed things along by inducing despair. So some Orcs are Elves, and some are Men, and some are Dwarves, and perhaps there's some other, lesser-known Children out there as well. Some were born into an Orcish society and look the part, while others still carry on the practices of their native society, whose rulers' alignment with the Shadow they enthusiastically complied with. Those raised Orc could defect, though their prospects would be grim even if they succeed and far worse if they fail, and to even think about it they'd need to overcome conditioning arising from the worst generational trauma ever. Noldor and Sindar writers don't believe that Elves could go over to the Shadow, and more importantly don't want to believe, and yet for all his might and art, Morgoth's power to dominate stops short of depriving other beings of free will. This is probably the best take, perhaps with the caveat that Orcishness is both a spiritual and physical condition; think too many Orcish thoughts and you'll start turning into one. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 12:34
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Data Graham posted:Orcs are corrupted Elves or Men who have souls and reproduce autonomously -> that means they have free will and could theoretically not be evil -> that means the good guys slaughtering them indiscriminately is all kinds of ethically problematic -> Do they actually slaughter orcs indiscriminately at any point in the trilogy? They fight them because they are enemy soldiers, but I can't off the top of my head recall any instances where it would have been different if they were human soldiers in the enemy army. It's not like they slaughter unarmed orc civilians or children or anything.
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Jan 4, 2024 12:46
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SimonChris posted:Do they actually slaughter orcs indiscriminately at any point in the trilogy? They fight them because they are enemy soldiers, but I can't off the top of my head recall any instances where it would have been different if they were human soldiers in the enemy army. It's not like they slaughter unarmed orc civilians or children or anything. This is an interesting point. I don't think it's ever made clear, but the impression I get is that at the end of a losing battle, the Orcs either flee or fight to the last man, but they don't surrender, while their allies sometimes act differently. The main place where it's clear that a battle ends without all of one side fighting to the death is Helm's Deep. When the White Rider appears there is a significant difference in what happens to the Orcs and to the men of Dunland. quote:The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again. Note that they are said to all act collectively. Orcs do it like this, Dunland does it like this. quote:The king now returned to the Hornburg, and slept...but the others, all that were not hurt or wounded, began a great labour; for many had fallen in the battle and lay dead upon the field or in the Deep. It's not made clear what happened to the men of Dunland who fell, but if they were treated differently in life, it seems reasonable to think that they would be treated differently in death. It's not mentioned what happened to the dead of the Pelennor or the Black Gate. There is a mention that the fighting on the Pelennor continues for a long time after the Witch-king falls because quote:the Southrons were bold men and grim, and fierce in despair; and the Easterlings were strong and war-hardened and asked for no quarter. After coming into his own, the King then makes peace and shows mercy to those who did surrender to him.
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Jan 4, 2024 14:27
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With the possible exception of the efforts to reclaim Moria, which were both failures until the Fourth Age, and apparently limited to Moria itself, I can't think of any cases in the books where non-orcs went actively orc-hunting out of unprovoked aggression. Maybe the Lorien border guard was aggressive? But even then, against people who came to Lorien. While it is not somehow obligatory to agree with it, Tolkien seems to distinguish 'killing a great many enemy soldiers in actual war' and 'just killing a bunch of people.'
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Jan 4, 2024 15:56
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Nessus posted:With the possible exception of the efforts to reclaim Moria, which were both failures until the Fourth Age, and apparently limited to Moria itself, I can't think of any cases in the books where non-orcs went actively orc-hunting out of unprovoked aggression. Maybe the Lorien border guard was aggressive? But even then, against people who came to Lorien. It is suggested that the Dunedain and the sons of Elrond go looking for trouble in this manner. Many Meetings posted:But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry; for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother’s torment in the dens of the orcs. Doubtless they don’t consider whatever aggression their errantry entails to be unprovoked.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:37
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There is the manner of the orcs actions at the black gate compared to the evil men. When the ring is destroyed the men mostly retreat except for a minority composed of the ones most ideologically committed to Sauron who make a last stand. The orcs meanwhile go absolutely bonkers. Committing mass suicide, some going practically catatonic, turning on and killing each other. They seem to be acting the part of the “mud robot” version of the orc origin story.
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Jan 5, 2024 01:56
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IIRC the writing of LotR was smack dab contemporaneous with some of his other developmental writings (covered in The Shaping of Middle-earth I believe) where he was transitioning from one conception of orcs to another and vacillating back again. So basically you get elements of both slime golems (Black Gate) and cockney WWI rank-and-filers (Cirith Ungol, Grishnakh's party) interspersed all over the place, and he'd probably have rewritten it all yet again a few years later if he thought he could get away with it.
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Jan 5, 2024 02:54
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Given the time at which Return of the King was written, I think the bit about orcs killing themselves is a contemporary political allusion. Once it became obvious how WW2 was going to end, many thousands of Germans committed suicide, including some pretty well-known ones but also a lot of randoms. the mass suicides were widely reported in the Allied nations (example from May 1945 Life magazine; don’t click if you don’t want to see pictures of dead people including children) and must have been hard not to think of when envisioning what happens to the subjects of a tyrant upon his fall.
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Jan 5, 2024 03:10
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Posted elsewhere but it seems applicable to our current topic:Sentient Data posted:I couldn't find somewhere other than discord to upload this without jumping through a thousand hoops, so this will probably expire at some point
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Jan 5, 2024 03:54
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Why was it so essential for Theoden and Aragorn to RIDE OUT AND MEET THEM!
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Jan 5, 2024 20:03
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Baron Porkface posted:Why was it so essential for Theoden and Aragorn to RIDE OUT AND MEET THEM! Fell mood, bro
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Jan 5, 2024 20:06
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Baron Porkface posted:Why was it so essential for Theoden and Aragorn to RIDE OUT AND MEET THEM! They realized the defenses weren’t going to hold up and Theoden didn’t want to die “taken like an old badger in a trap.” So they attack at dawn in the hope that they might break through the enemy lines, or at least die in a cool way.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:09
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skasion posted:They realized the defenses weren’t going to hold up and Theoden didn’t want to die “taken like an old badger in a trap.” So they attack at dawn in the hope that they might break through the enemy lines, or at least die in a cool way. It's another instance of the "gotta have faith, then God may perform a miracle" theme. Never despair, always go out at least trying.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:50
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Then Theoden shouldn't have moved into a fort. Better to perform a Fabian Strategy.
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Jan 5, 2024 21:04
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