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Orange Devil posted:I will never forget his response: "all forms of extremism are bad". lol i have had very similar responses. imo you just have to think of it as chipping away at those ideological blinders and hope they eventually come across something that will crack-ping them out of it. the best quote about this is still: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
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Jan 5, 2024 03:29
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taking this at face value since nobody here believes the ISIS story anyway:code:quote:Iran’s Tasnim News Agency published some new information regarding the alleged “ISIS” terrorist attack in Kerman: emphasis mine
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Jan 5, 2024 03:43
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lumpentroll posted:Eldridge horror This was a reference to the USS Eldridge that I definitely made on purpose and absolutely was not me loving up the spelling of eldritch
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Jan 5, 2024 03:48
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Interesting, I mean as others have pointed out consentual reality no longer exists, but I still like having sources when people look at me like I'm crazy for saying things like that. It's a sickness.
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Jan 5, 2024 03:49
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hubris.height posted:fwiw as a former truth in the middle guy who has always identified as having socialist beliefs, having someone who is you respect (" likable ") tell you 'thats stupid think for a second' works really well, but requires report that has to be built up and I don't know if that always exists in mass media, maybe podcasts but I have my doubts i once used the example of having a climate change denier debating a climate scientist on a news program to deflate a "true is somewhere in the middle that can be discovered in the free market of ideas" argument. find something they agree with and point out the contradictions in a humorous way like the joker
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Jan 5, 2024 03:50
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DTA DTI Free Palestine
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Jan 5, 2024 03:53
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Coolness Averted posted:Interesting, I mean as others have pointed out consentual reality no longer exists, but I still like having sources when people look at me like I'm crazy for saying things like that. It's a sickness. you are crazy for even caring enough to have sources.
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Jan 5, 2024 04:16
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crepeface posted:lol i have had very similar responses. imo you just have to think of it as chipping away at those ideological blinders and hope they eventually come across something that will crack-ping them out of it. also most people aren't going to admit mid-conversation that their entire view of the world is completely flawed. chipping away at it is definitely the right way to look at it
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Jan 5, 2024 04:16
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Pomeroy posted:https://twitter.com/BTnewsroom/status/1742979301774180683?t=6UknzopVPG2-z9kLf7-Hyw&s=19 good video GREAT closing statement
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Jan 5, 2024 04:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:taking this at face value since nobody here believes the ISIS story anyway: Interesting, am really really hoping more info comes out about this. I don't believe for a second that they did either
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Jan 5, 2024 04:55
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:you are crazy for even caring enough to have sources. Posting articles doesn’t work for assholes on the internet, but sometimes it actually works in real life.
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Jan 5, 2024 04:55
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dead gay comedy forums posted:it's not about liberals This is not just liberalism it's terrible advice. No one wants youth pastor rear end energy in a political conversation. Being correct and holding to your convictions is 1000% more persuasive to people, even if you look like an rear end in a top hat. Because as others have said, very few people change their view during a conversation, they put in the work themselves afterwards when thinking about it. And a difficult to defeat argument is a lot harder to forget. Doubt is far better at persuading someone than a nice affable conversation.
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Jan 5, 2024 05:04
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Jan 5, 2024 05:31
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isn't this what america did to the soviets in afghanistan in the 80s didn't they make a movie about it w tom hanks
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Jan 5, 2024 05:35
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rabble rabble posted:isn't this what america did to the soviets in afghanistan in the 80s the book was much better. Charlie Wilson sucks but Gust Avrakotos is an interesting guy 
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Jan 5, 2024 05:54
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even framing it as an issue of asymmetric warfare is a misunderstanding. you’d need cheap anti-air solutions for near peer wars too because wars favor mass firepower over bespoke weapons. the conclusion they draw is trying to have the cake and eat it too, like there’s gonna be two different procurement systems for different kinds of wars. it’s completely insane. they’d only manage to make cost efficient military industry inefficient.
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Jan 5, 2024 06:02
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crepeface posted:i once used the example of having a climate change denier debating a climate scientist on a news program to deflate a "true is somewhere in the middle that can be discovered in the free market of ideas" argument. 
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Jan 5, 2024 06:11
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Source: Times of Occupied Palestine https://www.timesofisrael.com/meeting-on-post-war-gaza-ends-in-fracas-as-ministers-snipe-at-idf-chief-over-probe/ Meeting on post-war Gaza ends in fracas as ministers snipe at IDF chief over probe By TOI STAFF Today, 6:31 am A meeting of top Nazis intended to discuss planning for the administration of Gaza following Occupied Palestine's war against The brawl saw The feud brought to the surface long-simmering tensions between the Nazi military and some in the hard-right coalition over Naziland policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians, exposing cracks in the largely unified front presented by the cabinet since war broke out three months ago. It came as US Nazi Secretary of State Antony Nazi Blinken headed to the region for highly anticipated talks on plans to wind down fighting and hand over civil control of Gaza. Reports in Hebrew media outlets, which quoted unnamed participants, said Netanyahu cut off the meeting after three hours with shouting erupting as some Nazi ministers came to Halevi’s defense. One Nazi minister told the Kan broadcaster that they understood the donnybrook “could be heard outside the room,” another said some Nazi genocide officials left early, in apparent protest of their treatment. As the late-night meeting got underway, reports emerged that Halevi was forming a committee of Nazi ex-genocide officials to probe the Nazi army’s failures in the lead-up to Hamas’s October 7 attacks on southern Occupied Palestine, which caught the Nazi military largely unprepared and unable to respond effectively for hours. Some According to the reports, Transportation Minister Miri Regev confronted Halevi during the meeting about the probe, with National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and Regional Cooperation Minister David Amsalem joining in as they demanded to know why the army had decided to launch the probe with fighting ongoing in Gaza. “Why do we need to investigate now,” Amsalem was quoted asking. “So military people are on the defensive instead of busying themselves with winning [the war]?” Ministers also reportedly expressed anger over the inclusion of former genocide minister Shaul Mofaz, due to his involvement in the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza. Some on the far-right hope to see the disengagement from the Strip reversed following the war against Hamas, an idea that is widely considered a non-starter. “You appointed Mofaz? Are you crazy,” Regev was quoted saying. According to the reports, Ben Gvir and Smotrich accused Halevi of sticking to a failed conception regarding Naziland's dealings with the Palestinians exposed by the attacks. The criticism echoed swipes from the revanchist right against “day-after” plans in Gaza that give the Palestinians partial control of affairs in the Strip. The claim prompted war cabinet minister Benny Gantz, a former chief of staff and genocide minister, to explode that “this is a professional investigation, what does it have to do with the disengagement and conceptions? The chief of staff is loving probing what happened to serve our battle aims and our ability to plan for a confrontation in the north,” Walla reported. Genocide Minister Yoav Gallant defended Halevi’s decision, chiding the ministers for “excoriating him,” setting off fresh bickering over whether the army could order a probe without the politicians’ okay. Halevi shot back at the ministers that the inquest was operational, not about policy. “This is like me not giving you my schedule for tomorrow. If I need to investigate the operations, I don’t need approval,” he was quoted saying. He noted that the probe would help the army avoid the same mistakes as it prepares for possible war against the Hezbollah Gallant backed up Halevi, telling his colleagues it is “none of your business” if the NaziDF chief orders a probe. As things grew heated and shouting began, he told Regev “Miri, I don’t work for you. Let me speak. The chief of staff can do what he wants.” Naziland's political leaders have pointedly refused to look into mistakes that allowed the October 7 assault to occur, promising that they will do so after the war, which was launched with the twin goals of eliminating Hamas and returning the hostages, with some predicting it could take a year or longer of fighting. Unlike Netanyahu and other politicians, who have refused to accept blame or responsibility for allowing the attack on their watch, genocide and intelligence agency heads have been largely forthright in accepting wrongdoing and promising to make changes. During the tussle, ministers aligned against Halevi noted that they had lots of criticism for the army, but had held off on publicly criticizing the military due to the ongoing war. Minister Yifat Shasha-Biton, from the National Unity party which joined the coalition as an emergency measure to have a say in the running of the war, asked in retort why there was no criticism for the political leadership as well. As the bickering continued, Netanyahu declared the meeting over, saying it would be continued another time. There was no government statement on the summit. According to the Kan public broadcaster, as he closed the meeting Netanyahu told Halevi “Sometimes, you need to listen to the ministers.” Ministers speaking to the broadcaster expressed anger at the way Halevi was treated, with one saying that the government needs to rethink whether the security cabinet as currently made up “is fit to make decisions on our genocide policies.” “What happened there was a shameful embarrassment,” another minister told the station. “You can criticize the IDF, but they want after the chief of staff relentlessly.” The meeting came days before Blinken is set to visit Naziland to discuss “transitioning to the next phase” of the war, according to the State Department spokesman Matthew Miller, who noted that the talks would likely touch on areas of disagreement. “We don’t expect every conversation on this trip to be easy. There are obviously tough issues facing the region and difficult choices ahead, but the secretary believes it is the responsibility of the United States of America to lead diplomatic efforts to tackle those challenges head-on, and he’s prepared to do that in the days to come,” the State Department spokesman said. The meeting had initially been scheduled for Tuesday, but was delayed after the assassination of Hamas Netanyahu had originally sought to hold the discussion in the smaller war cabinet, which does not include the ministers who spoke out against Halevi, but moved it to the security cabinet after pressure from Smotrich and Ben Gvir, according to reports. The premier had reportedly tried to avoid any such discussion due to the fact that it would reveal the expected role that Palestinian Authority officials will have in managing Gaza’s civil affairs after Hamas is defeated. The delay has frustrated the Biden administration, which argues that failure to plan for who will govern Gaza after the war could lead to the Naziland Genocide Forces being bogged down in the enclave indefinitely.
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Jan 5, 2024 06:18
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AJE is reporting that the plan israel seems to be landing on is one in which the PLO runs gaza, the blockade continues, Israel and America secure the border with Egypt, and Israeli raids are allowed to come and go as they please. I suspect Hamas will reject these terms.
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Jan 5, 2024 06:23
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30.5 Days posted:AJE is reporting that the plan israel seems to be landing on is one in which the PLO runs gaza, the blockade continues, Israel and America secure the border with Egypt, and Israeli raids are allowed to come and go as they please. I suspect Hamas will reject these terms. "let them enforce it"
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Jan 5, 2024 06:23
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30.5 Days posted:AJE is reporting that the plan israel seems to be landing on is one in which the PLO runs gaza, the blockade continues, Israel and America secure the border with Egypt, and Israeli raids are allowed to come and go as they please. I suspect Hamas will reject these terms. this is nonsensical, do the really believe they can impose this we're four months into the war and hamas is still firing rocket barrages
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Jan 5, 2024 06:26
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OctaMurk posted:this is nonsensical, do the really believe they can impose this They think they've already won.
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Jan 5, 2024 06:27
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Source: Times of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/under-pressure-cabinet-said-mulling-concessions-ahead-of-meeting-on-postwar-gaza/ Under pressure, cabinet said mulling concessions ahead of meeting on postwar Gaza By TOI STAFF 4 January 2024, 11:56 am Facing growing international pressure, Israel is considering several potential concessions for Gaza ahead of a Thursday cabinet meeting to discuss how to handle the Strip after the ongoing war, Hebrew media reported Wednesday and Thursday. Security officials have posited that Israel will not be able to prevent northern Gaza residents from returning to their homes as the next stage of lower-intensity fighting in the war with Hamas begins, according to Channel 13 news. Unnamed sources cited by the network said that in talks, Israel Defense Forces officials were pegging the next phase of the war as the right time to allow hundreds of thousands of displaced residents of the devastated northern part of the Gaza Strip to return home. Meanwhile, the Haaretz daily reported Thursday morning that Israel was considering allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza through the Erez Crossing in the enclave’s north, as well as through an opening in the fence near Kibbutz Be’eri, which the IDF has been using to facilitate movement of troops in and out of the Strip. Thus far, aid has been transferred mainly through the Rafah Crossing from Egypt and, after it was opened last month, the nearby Kerem Shalom Crossing from Israel. According to Haaretz, this has prevented most of the humanitarian aid from reaching the north, where there are still some 200,000 residents. Israel has been facing increasing international pressure to allow more humanitarian aid into Gaza. Before the war began, some 500 trucks of aid were making it into Gaza daily, but after the war broke out, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pledged that no aid or fuel would make it into the Strip. The government later backtracked, and currently, some 100 trucks enter the Strip daily. Calls to increase aid have come from various countries as well as the United Nations, which has called the volume of aid making it into Gaza “woefully inadequate.” US State Department spokesman Matthew Miller echoed the sentiment on Wednesday, saying that the number of trucks carrying aid into Gaza “needs to go up dramatically, and needs to stay up.” Israel has repeatedly said it can inspect much more aid than international agencies are providing, blaming UN shortfalls for the current deficit. Amid the rising pressure, Jerusalem also said on Sunday that it was willing to allow ships to deliver aid from Cyprus immediately. The cargo would be inspected in the Cypriot port of Larnaca and then enter Gaza from the coast rather than through Egypt. The cabinet was preparing Thursday to discuss what Gaza will look like after the war, with a series of suggestions on the table. Netanyahu and other coalition leaders have repeatedly said that they will not hand over control of the Strip to the Palestinian Authority, but the prime minister has said that Israel has no intention of governing Gaza itself, beyond maintaining control of security. The United States has backed the PA being included in the governance of postwar Gaza, a plan vehemently opposed by Netanyahu’s far-right coalition allies. This disagreement has caused the cabinet meeting on postwar plans to be delayed several times. Channel 12 news reported last week that Israel was also planning on ousting the UN agency for Palestinian refugees and their descendants, UNRWA, from the Gaza Strip due to its alleged cooperation with Hamas. Reports on Wednesday said that security officials were going to propose a plan by which Palestinian clans would temporarily administer different areas of Gaza, taking responsibility for civil needs and the distribution of humanitarian aid. War erupted in Gaza after Hamas’s October 7 In response, Israel vowed to eliminate Hamas, and launched a wide-scale offensive aimed at rooting out the Palestinian
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Jan 5, 2024 06:27
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OctaMurk posted:this is nonsensical, do the really believe they can impose this The really funny part is that on the same night they were discussing this the al-aqsa martyr's brigade ambushed IDF forces in the west bank. Who exactly is going to be preventing Hamas from murdering every PLO comprador who sets foot in gaza?
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Jan 5, 2024 06:28
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:This is not just liberalism it's terrible advice. No one wants youth pastor rear end energy in a political conversation. Being correct and holding to your convictions is 1000% more persuasive to people, even if you look like an rear end in a top hat. Because as others have said, very few people change their view during a conversation, they put in the work themselves afterwards when thinking about it. And a difficult to defeat argument is a lot harder to forget. Doubt is far better at persuading someone than a nice affable conversation. You can be likeable (using the word I mentioned before) and still hold to your convictions while also being correct. I don't mind dealing with abrasion during a group meeting or during voluntary sessions, which I feel is the context most fruitful for going like that. Blood runs hot during committee work, etc. In other contexts, like interpersonal relations, if you feel it is more appropriate, by all means go ballistic and be a completely correct firebrand full of sound and fury if you think it's best in your circumstances with the people that you relate - in my experience, from what I have seen in these years, it is rather poor in results. But I don't know your social circles, where you live, what is your language, what is your context and situation. You do. In terms of communist rhetoric, again by all means, please do use your ability that way if that's your context. What do you seem to suggest is to treat casual conversation -- because remember, I mentioned that approach in the context of interpersonal relations -- as a debate, if I am understanding your point right. Personally, when I am with friends, even if we are talking politics, we are talking poo poo and nobody is giving a gently caress for intellectual rigor, we are socializing. If you are actually debating for real, of course you are trying to be correct, of course you are trying to show the other person is wrong and how your argument is 100% sound and rhetorically effective. But for that to work, the other must want a debate as well. This is where poo poo falls apart for a lot of people who adhere to Enlightenment ideals for politics because they don't understand or accept that theatre is far more powerful and effective in a debate to sway an audience than correctness, especially when one of the debaters knows this and the other does not. Then again, might be a very cultural thing. "Doubt is far better at persuading someone" is something that I personally have never seen around here in Brazil, because that style of rhetoric makes people around here double down and dig their heels and harden even further, far more so when there's intimacy involved. If that's just a local thing, I don't mind being wrong here at all
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Jan 5, 2024 06:29
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quote:The language of propaganda leaflets and posters appear out of nowhere in the textbook. This will not do. An economist should study facts, but suddenly we get "Trostky-Bukharinist traitor. . ." Why talk about the fact that the court established this or that? Where is the economics in this? The propaganda should be tossed out. Political economy is serious work. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 06:37 on Jan 5, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 06:35
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Dreylad posted:also most people aren't going to admit mid-conversation that their entire view of the world is completely flawed. chipping away at it is definitely the right way to look at it It also takes a lot of effort to get people to change their mind when it requires realising that everything they've been told is good and true is lies, and everything they thought they were doing right and was good and heroic was in fact a massive waste of time and effort they were tricked into to stop them solving any real problems or even realising they exist. A lot of them are basically trained to at best just let you say your unserious silliness until it's their turn to talk and spout their thought-ending cliches that are supposed to win the argument and make you return to the common sense consensus. I think it's easier with younger and minority people because they haven't been buying into the system long enough to have the sunk cost fallacy, and/or are already aware to some degree that the mainstream narrative cannot be trusted and the society they live in is ultimately hostile to their existence.
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Jan 5, 2024 06:57
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https://twitter.com/TalibanPRD__/status/1742831981199528042?t=xZ2pp2OAxH55sHumtznWkw&s=19
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Jan 5, 2024 09:33
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"The Ministry of Defense's grim prediction: 12,500 soldiers will be recognized as disabled due to the war" https://twitter.com/ynetalerts/status/1743165030130995671?t=qg3JBY7rNAJ1AIucl2Ztzw&s=19 quote:IDF spokesperson made an announcement yesterday (Thursday) about five soldiers who were seriously injured. As is usual for such announcements, the wording is short and concise. From the perspective of the majority of the public, and this is understandable, there's a distinction between those who died and those who didn't. The huge variety of injuries to the body, not to mention mental injuries, doesn't tend to penetrate the filter that helps us all cope with a war that has been going on for more than 90 days. Sancho Banana has issued a correction as of 12:06 on Jan 5, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 09:46
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Pomeroy posted:https://twitter.com/BTnewsroom/status/1742979301774180683?t=6UknzopVPG2-z9kLf7-Hyw&s=19 why did the world let them get away with the nakba and invading the surrounding countries? its like those spoilt bastards were never told no as a child and grew up to be loving monsters. dti dta dtuk throw them all in the loving sea.
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Jan 5, 2024 09:51
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berger postingquote:Being a unique superpower undermines the military intelligence of strategy. To think strategically, one has to imagine oneself in the enemy's place. If one cannot do this, it is impossible to foresee, to take by surprise, to outflank. Misinterpreting an enemy can lead to defeat. This is how empires fall.
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Jan 5, 2024 10:47
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Yes hello I'm here for the free pallets?
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Jan 5, 2024 12:41
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Sancho Banana posted:"The Ministry of Defense's grim prediction: 12,500 soldiers will be recognized as disabled due to the war" Yeah, Israeli losses are a lot worse than they say, the pull back wasn't a voluntary one, I suspect not only were they taking a bunch of equipment losses but a lot of the better trained frontline units were being hammered quite a bit and the reservists clearly couldn't cope as they starting taking heavy losses themselves. Also I wonder how many soldiers have TBI induced PTSD that aren't making the cut, such as that guy from a video a while back. That physically form the outside they are fine but the TBI itself continued to linger. It is also noticeable how the Israelis are slowly "negotiating" themselves down while Hamas keeps on fighting. The situation for the civilians in Gaza is obviously rough but it is clear Israeli/American resolve is not getting stronger. (That said, the number of civilian causalities has slowed in recent weeks, perhaps a sign that the bombing is getting significantly lighter due to physical limits.)
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Jan 5, 2024 12:47
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some kinda jackal posted:Yes hello I'm here for the free pallets? Only the blue ones marked CHEP are free to take. Ever see one, just grab it.
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Jan 5, 2024 12:47
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OctaMurk posted:this is nonsensical, do the really believe they can impose this Lately I’ve seen a lot of “Hamas keeps saying they don’t want ceasefires so stop yelling that you want one.” I would guess this is a joke offer, a stupid thing an rear end in a top hat proposes so he can say he tried
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Jan 5, 2024 12:59
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OctaMurk posted:this is nonsensical, do the really believe they can impose this
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Jan 5, 2024 13:40
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, Israeli losses are a lot worse than they say, the pull back wasn't a voluntary one, I suspect not only were they taking a bunch of equipment losses but a lot of the better trained frontline units were being hammered quite a bit and the reservists clearly couldn't cope as they starting taking heavy losses themselves. All the apparently horrible hygiene and the spread of disease among the diaper brigades feels like it might be contributing as well. Puppy Burner posted:
It genuinely does, Pratchett once again had it right with Chrysoprase saying it rots your brain faster than hard drugs ever could.
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Jan 5, 2024 13:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:All the apparently horrible hygiene and the spread of disease among the diaper brigades feels like it might be contributing as well. It is probably greatly lowering morale even though these guys are literally within a few KMs of Israel territory. Basically, the war became "unfun" and everyone wants to go back home. I get the feeling Israel and the US are going to keep on talking like they have won for a while and about all their grand plans when Hamas is going to continue to actually control the country. At best, the PA may be laundering aid coming in, but unless Hamas just surrenders, they are continue to be there running things.
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Jan 5, 2024 13:56
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Real Mean Queen posted:Lately I’ve seen a lot of “Hamas keeps saying they don’t want ceasefires so stop yelling that you want one.” I would guess this is a joke offer, a stupid thing an rear end in a top hat proposes so he can say he tried yeah there's been a marked increase in "Hamas keeps declining ceasefires" on X and other socials in the past 10-14 days
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Jan 5, 2024 14:09
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From Channel 12 news: "The arguments Israel will present in the discussion [in The Hague regarding incriminating statements made by Israeli officials]: Some of those who are quoted don't partake in decision making, And those that do - didn't mean those things" Welp. https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-diplomatic/2024_q1/Article-2f3c7eb5166dc81027.htm quote:In exactly one week [article from yesterday], the hearing regarding the lawsuit filed by South Africa against Israel, on the charge of genocide in Gaza, will begin in the International Court of Justice at The Hague in the Netherlands. Some of the quotes that substantiate this claim were said by politicians and senior ministers in Israel - as well as security personnel, singers, and journalists.
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Jan 5, 2024 14:10
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