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mobby_6kl posted:If you ignore the cost of the actual electricity, maybe In addition, the cost of electricity would be less if there is enough transmission capacity to cover needs.
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Jan 5, 2024 22:20
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Making an undersea power-connector between finland and sweden is not at all representative of the problem of interconnecting europe with enough capacity that wind power can be moved to where it needs to go. There will be a need for new lines having to be made across europe, over land, over inhabited areas. These are going to be much more expensive, much more contested by the people affected too which drags out on the construction time, I've heard of new transmission lines being delayed by 20 years due to similar problems. Based on this reuters article europe is looking at a 585€ billion investment to the grid to make it suitable for mass renewables and moving power where it needs to go, and I believe that's not accounting for all the before mentioned difficulties. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/eu-plans-boost-power-grid-investment-2023-11-24/ Of course it's probably all for naught since europes weather patterns are such that the wind often doesn't blow anywhere in europe so the concept thus fails: https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/energy-storage-analysing-feasibility-grid-scale-options/ From a strategic perspective IMO it would be better if each country tried to be as independent as it feasbly can in the area of power generation, rather than relying on neighbors.
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Jan 6, 2024 12:08
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With the planned amount of mass renewables getting deployed this decade, interconnection and transmission investments make a lot more sense for a common European energy market, than going back to per-country "sufficiency" (which means more fossil fuels, most importantly).
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Jan 6, 2024 12:36
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His Divine Shadow posted:From a strategic perspective IMO it would be better if each country tried to be as independent as it feasbly can in the area of power generation, rather than relying on neighbors. Yes, that would probably be useful if we plan to go to war with Sweden. But why do you want to raise your electricity bill so much? Thanks to the energy market and wind and hydro power from Sweden and Norway we have enjoyed exceptionally cheap electricity for couple decades already. Any other power source would have been more expensive. If the peak prices concern you so much, then put the savings you get from cheap summer electricity to piggybank and use them to cover January costs. If you want expensive electricity just use fixed contract but don't mess things for the rest of us. One option to contain peak costs would be if state of Fingrid bought power plants near decommission and used them to offer electricity for 50c/kWh or so. The practical problem of course is how to keep the plants in working condition if they are unused most of the year.
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Jan 6, 2024 15:13
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It's as much or more thanks to nuclear power as well, which we should expand more for cheap and reliable energy generation.
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Jan 6, 2024 15:20
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"Just buy it" is some real MBA thinking - JIT logistics for life critical systems because it saves you some capital cost up front. Gotta keep those quarterly expenses low and just ignore all the externalized risk though. We have so many examples of this falling apart for things less valuable than electricity. What if they have none of it to sell, what if they can't get it to you, what if politically some things change in your supplying countries? Unless you own and invest in capital assets to generate electricity, be them Solar, Wind, or Nuclear (or shamefully NG turbines) you are at the whims of the real world. Its not just a MWh number on a spreadsheet you can just move to a different column. This is also where micro-grids start to show some of their value as you can disentangle the large scale risk for smaller less dramatic local risks.
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Jan 6, 2024 16:08
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Just build a belt of solar panels across the equator and transmit power from there. Christ it's like none of you took the instructional engineering course Dyson Sphere Program.
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Jan 6, 2024 19:15
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So the question about how big of a catastrophe was Friday for industry, and the answer seems to be it was a non-issue. Industry has bought electricity at fixed price. Related question is how huge profits did power companies amass during the price catastrophe, and the answer also seems to be largely not. A majority of the production has been sold way in advanced for fixed prices. On Saturday Helsingin Sanomat published an article (finnish) on the matter. As an example they used Fortum, Finland's largest(?) energy company. For the October-December 2023 period they had sold 75% of their electricity production for 5c/kWh. Of the 2024 production 65% had already been sold in last October for 4.7c/kWh. Fortum also had reported that they received an average of 6.5c/kWh for the electricity sold between January and September. The article estimated that maybe 2GW of the production is sold at market price. Hydro power is most easily adjusted and so it's also the most valuable. HS also published an article (finnish) discussing whether matters should be taken to curtail such excessive price spikes. In the past 20 years almost all of coal and natural gas generation has disappeared from the market due to EU carbon trading. The 1300MW transmission line to Russia was also turned off year and a half ago which had reduced adjustability. Government agenda includes idea about capacity mechanism, buying spare generation to balance peaks. The article interviews energy markets professor Honkapuro. In his opinion this kind of mechanism could be integrated in the energy markets even if it's tricky, but it would be an expensive fix a problem that doesn't exist. "If there has been enough electricity through the whole cricis and prices are low on average why would the spare capacity be needed." If the spare capacity is built we will have to pay for it in every hour. According to Honkapuro from system perspective it's preferable if the adjustment happens at consumption end. The price volatility also makes it profitable to build energy storage systems. "The principles of energy market worked as they should. When prices rise the consumption drops and balance is restored." This adjustment was in effect on Friday. For almost the whole week electricity consumption had been close to 1GW higher than estimated. On Thursday they evened out and on Friday consumption was 1GW below estimates. Graph attached, black is consumption, red estimate. I witnessed this myself. I'm vacationing on my sister's place, a modern house equipped with heat pump and spot electricity. On Friday thermostats were turned down, floor heating off, fire place lit and any other non-drastic way to curtail in effect. As a result the consumption was about half what it had been on Monday. Friday still cost about weeks worth of electricity, but they still saved about 40€. The article concludes with an explanation for the price volatily in Finland. We are located between two regions of price extremes. When Finland has plenty of domestic production prices are dictated by cheap Northern Sweden. When production is lacking we get prices from very expensive Baltic countries.
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Jan 6, 2024 23:53
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His Divine Shadow posted:Making an undersea power-connector between finland and sweden is not at all representative of the problem of interconnecting europe with enough capacity that wind power can be moved to where it needs to go. There will be a need for new lines having to be made across europe, over land, over inhabited areas. These are going to be much more expensive, much more contested by the people affected too which drags out on the construction time, I've heard of new transmission lines being delayed by 20 years due to similar problems. quote:From a strategic perspective IMO it would be better if each country tried to be as independent as it feasbly can in the area of power generation, rather than relying on neighbors. It is much, much, much cheaper to continue with increasing transmission than to try and achieve country-level autarky.
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Jan 7, 2024 05:12
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DTurtle posted:Moving the goal posts a bit much? I gave you a real life example showing how much cheaper expanding transmission in comparison to expanding energy production was. Yes, all it takes is a neighboring country burning lignite and switchgrass and you're set when the wind stops in winter. I don't see any downsides.
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Jan 7, 2024 09:09
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Pander posted:Yes, all it takes is a neighboring country burning lignite and switchgrass and you're set when the wind stops in winter. I don't see any downsides. No that doesn't go far enough, actually we should drop all connection between cities. And build 5 times as many coal plants as needed for the theoretical peak usage in case 4 drop out randomly. This will protect us from the terrible danger of importing energy from a city that has a similar energy mix as us.
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Jan 7, 2024 14:18
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Almost not country in Europe is geographically large enough to have renewable energy autarky. The only way to achieve that is through fossil fuels(making you dependent on fuel imports and prices, btw)and that means we effectively abandon any hope of power sector decarbonization by ~2045 and our current climate goals. It's the political equivalent of rolling coal. And for literally zero gain because almost no EU member is a permanent electricity exporter or importer and trade goes in both directions depending on time and weather. Even if more EU countries go insane and brexit, electricity trade will continue, just like after Brexit.
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Jan 7, 2024 14:46
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DTurtle posted:Moving the goal posts a bit much? I gave you a real life example showing how much cheaper expanding transmission in comparison to expanding energy production was. Even if Texas was part of the eastern interconnect there are limits on the amount of electricity that can be brought over. The real problem in Texas is that the spot price for nat gas spiked so high that companies were making more money by selling their nat gas than by running their turbines. So they shut down their turbines.
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Jan 7, 2024 14:54
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His Divine Shadow posted:From a strategic perspective IMO it would be better if each country tried to be as independent as it feasbly can in the area of power generation, rather than relying on neighbors. 
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Jan 7, 2024 14:58
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It's not like I said each country had to be north korea or that we should shut down interconnectors, or even not keep building them. But whatever I'm done with this poo poo.
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Jan 7, 2024 16:34
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Would energy autarky be a policy plank of ecofascism? I'm not entirely sure what ecofascism is, because when I first heard the term it was in the movie thread discussion of Pacific Rim and I think I don't have a very good idea of what it is; my initial impression as a younger more ignorant poster was "government throwing resources at climate change, i.e building a giant wall to try to stem the tide"; but on reflection I assume it's more about building the wall and bunkers (rich and powerful fleeing states like florida) and cutting funding for the only effective solution to the kaiju (climate change) problem (the mecha, one of which is a literal walking nuclear power plant).
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Jan 7, 2024 16:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:Would energy autarky be a policy plank of ecofascism? I'm not entirely sure what ecofascism is, because when I first heard the term it was in the movie thread discussion of Pacific Rim and I think I don't have a very good idea of what it is; my initial impression as a younger more ignorant poster was "government throwing resources at climate change, i.e building a giant wall to try to stem the tide"; but on reflection I assume it's more about building the wall and bunkers (rich and powerful fleeing states like florida) and cutting funding for the only effective solution to the kaiju (climate change) problem (the mecha, one of which is a literal walking nuclear power plant). I don't think ecofascism can be coherently defined, because it doesn't exist as an independent movement. If you see something arguing for ecofascism they are normally just trying to recruit greens into fascism, including the assumption that the recruits move on to normal anti-green fascism eventually. Or the opposite recruitment direction. I have never heard of someone presenting theoretical coherent ecofascist arguments, that would imply actual goals or policies.
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Jan 7, 2024 17:45
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Ecofascism means wanting to round up and put all of the brown people into death camps because you think that will save the environment
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Jan 7, 2024 19:15
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Pander posted:Yes, all it takes is a neighboring country burning lignite and switchgrass and you're set when the wind stops in winter. I don't see any downsides.   You were saying? DTurtle fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 19:26
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VictualSquid posted:I don't think ecofascism can be coherently defined, because it doesn't exist as an independent movement. If you see something arguing for ecofascism they are normally just trying to recruit greens into fascism, including the assumption that the recruits move on to normal anti-green fascism eventually. Or the opposite recruitment direction. I don't think you know what ecofascism is.
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Jan 8, 2024 03:22
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VictualSquid posted:I don't think ecofascism can be coherently defined, because it doesn't exist as an independent movement. If you see something arguing for ecofascism they are normally just trying to recruit greens into fascism, including the assumption that the recruits move on to normal anti-green fascism eventually. Or the opposite recruitment direction. I always thought Gilead in the Handmaid's Tale was a good depiction of what ecofascism would look like. They appear as a theocracy at first, but looking closer they don't really have any churches or priests or a sophisticated religious life. Instead the authoritarian and totalitarian state is the basis of society. They strongly believe in tradition, hierarchy and militarism and despise liberalism and pluralism. And of course they are absolutely obsessed with restoring nature from human damage at any cost and to live in balance with it in a deindustrialized Luddite society.
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Jan 8, 2024 06:21
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GABA ghoul posted:I always thought Gilead in the Handmaid's Tale was a good depiction of what ecofascism would look like. They appear as a theocracy at first, but looking closer they don't really have any churches or priests or a sophisticated religious life. Instead the authoritarian and totalitarian state is the basis of society. They strongly believe in tradition, hierarchy and militarism and despise liberalism and pluralism. And of course they are absolutely obsessed with restoring nature from human damage at any cost and to live in balance with it in a deindustrialized Luddite society. So your best example of an existing ecofascist is a fictional character? That is kinda my point, people who pretend to be ecofascists are just fascists who are experimenting with new arguments and who will be back to climate change denial in a year. Potato Salad posted:I don't think you know what ecofascism is.
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Jan 8, 2024 09:16
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Wasn't ecofacist a term Limbaugh invented whole cloth to demonize some environmentalists back in the early 90's? More on topic, looks like even Maine is getting some grid scale batteries. https://www.newscentermaine.com/art...4e-8dc598527eca I guess the trick was tax exemptions if your site is big enough.
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Jan 8, 2024 13:24
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Not thinking of "Feminazi"?
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Jan 8, 2024 13:57
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Limbaugh liked ecofascist, too. In the US it’s usually RW talking heads reaction to something like Dupont being asked to dump slightly less bpas in school water supplies as if it is equivalent to death camps, whereas in Europe there’s like Actual Nazis living that cottagecore lifestyle for blood and soil and all that poo poo.
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Jan 8, 2024 14:09
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One of the big figures in Finnish green movement, Pentti Linkola, had ideas that could be construed being ecofascistic. But I don't think there's really no theory around it, just kinda nihilistic ethos about things taking direct violent action for environment and general loathing of humanity that are put under the umbrella term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentti_Linkola quote:Linkola's views have been sometimes described as "ecofascist".[22] He believed that democracy was a mistake, saying he preferred dictatorships,[23] and only radical change can prevent ecological collapse.[5] He contended that the human populations of the world, regardless if they are developed or underdeveloped, do not deserve to survive at the expense of the biosphere as a whole.[24] In May 1994, Linkola was featured on the front page of The Wall Street Journal Europe.[25] He said he was for a radical reduction in the world population and was quoted as saying about a future world war, "If there were a button I could press, I would sacrifice myself without hesitating, if it meant millions of people would die."[26] Glah fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jan 8, 2024 |
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Jan 8, 2024 14:24
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i'm starting to think arguing about what is and isnt ecofacism is going to be like d&d libertarianism in the 200X's we could just skip to the part where we go 'oh its just republicans again' like the boringly obvious scooby do episode it will be
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Jan 8, 2024 14:33
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We need to determine important questions such as was Nausicaä of the valley of the wind (the manga version) an ecofascist?
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Jan 8, 2024 14:45
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I think that we can move on? Anyway, in other news: As nuclear debate nears, French minister sees potential for 14 new reactors https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/as-nuclear-debate-nears-french-minister-sees-potential-for-14-new-reactors/ quote:
Germany adds 17GW of renewables in 2023 amid wind recovery and solar boom https://archive.is/cJtaw#selection-841.3-841.77 quote:Soaring volume of onshore wind permits bodes well for expansion in coming years, federal grids agency says
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Jan 8, 2024 17:09
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Glah posted:One of the big figures in Finnish green movement, Pentti Linkola, had ideas that could be construed being ecofascistic. Paul Erlich definitely qualifies. Advocate of compulsory mass sterilization, primarily of brown people.
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Jan 8, 2024 18:05
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Dante80 posted:I think that we can move on? Hey let's check how things are going 
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Jan 10, 2024 21:52
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“Water pipes offer a largely untapped source of renewable electricity that could provide 1.4 gigawatts of power in the US alone“ “The excess pressure in water pipes can be used to spin miniature hydroelectric turbines, providing an underutilised source of clean energy” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 12, 2024 05:24
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mobby_6kl posted:Hey let's check how things are going People itt using cherry picked values to own the  Germany has had the lowest energy intensity on electricity production in the last, well, ever, appart from 2020. Renewable energy production increased by 7,5% from 2022, and convential production was reduced by a whopping 24%. This is due to a reduction in industrial activity, increased electricity imports and an increase in renewable energies. France was the biggest taker of german energy exports and Denmark the biggest supplier. There was a net import surpluss of 10 TWh, mostly due to renewable energies and french nuclear being cheaper than the sucky coal and gas plants still in use, which is a good development.
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Jan 12, 2024 05:25
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read an article about how Gd, Pr, and Eu ions can be used to absorb UV light and convert it to visible light. this phenomena can be used to increase efficiency of solar panels
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Jan 12, 2024 05:42
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Son of Rodney posted:People itt using cherry picked values to own the just imagine if Germany utilised its wealth, technical and industrial base to install low carbon generation three decades ago, might have g/kwhr numbers approaching those of anti-green French. Saying they are doing better with wind and solar given their location and circumstances is missing the wood (pellets heh) for the trees. And a lot of the hate on Germany is not just because they are all NIMBY on nuclear now, it is because they are also generally the preachiest of EU nations on what other nations should do up to and including opposing counting nuclear as the low carbon generation that it is (mainly because one of the big arguments against nuclear is that it is too expensive and doesn't work all the while France has been running reasonably economical-price, low-carbon power since the '70's for the majority of their grid).
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Jan 12, 2024 09:22
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You can find the average for 2023 on the site and it's 441g then. https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE
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Jan 12, 2024 09:45
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Son of Rodney posted:People itt using cherry picked values to own the Seeing how almost every commercial and residential building around me is now hastily slapping PV modules on their roof makes me wonder how much that affects official power consumption statistics. I assume to grid operators the installation of the modules would seem like a simple decrease in demand from factories and office buildings and they don't have access to anything more detailed than what capacity was installed.
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Jan 12, 2024 10:21
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Son of Rodney posted:People itt using cherry picked values to own the Not cherrypicked, that's just what it was when I saw the post and went to see how things are going. You can see the date in the screenshot. It's only a bit better today too.  It's worse than the average of 441g but it has to be sometimes. For comparison, Czech Republic is averaging about 500g for the last 5 years or so 
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Jan 12, 2024 14:43
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now do the rest of the g7 or oecd
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Jan 12, 2024 15:01
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4 of the G7 are visible on that map, but 2023 averages were: France: 51g GB: 214 Italy: 377 US: 409 Canada: Only shown by province but just Saskatchewan is above 440g Japan: 480 
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Jan 12, 2024 15:47
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