[Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

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Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

How long before someone pays for the film rights for the life story tbh. Has that already happened

# ? Jan 4, 2024 15:50

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 8, 2024 02:59

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Punkin Spunkin posted:

How long before someone pays for the film rights for the life story tbh. Has that already happened

gyllenhaal was supposed to play brace in a movie but i haven't heard anything about that in like 5-6 years

# ? Jan 4, 2024 16:58

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

i say swears online posted:

gyllenhaal was supposed to play brace in a movie but i haven't heard anything about that in like 5-6 years

lol

# ? Jan 4, 2024 16:58

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

mawarannahr posted:

lol

that was before trueanon so it'd be funny if the film does the 'where are they now' flash-forward ending like The Sandlot

# ? Jan 4, 2024 17:00

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I totally forgot about that. Lmao at that casting.
Clearly we need Caro to be played by Henry Cavill or something.

# ? Jan 4, 2024 23:19

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

NEOM update!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs_KndkRSk8

it's a...neighborhood port stadium coffeehouse? i'm glad they keep giving designers work

# ? Jan 5, 2024 05:50

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 20 days!)

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1743350669992468577?s=46&t=UyfxoSAUKW7QZlR_GhkuYA

# ? Jan 5, 2024 20:27

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Amazing

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Jan 5, 2024 22:42

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 20 days!)

https://twitter.com/DrewPavlou/status/1743464918035341772?s=20

# ? Jan 6, 2024 14:02

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://twitter.com/DrewPavlou/status/1743464918035341772?s=20

Like 40 percent of the population of Somalialnd are unionist, I don�t think 40 percent of the Palestinian population wants to be occupied by Palestine.

https://twitter.com/SONNALIVE/status/1743558433792479655

Here is a unionist protest in the second largest city in somaliland, Burco.

Again, it has been a repeated claim by the Unionist clans that if Somaliland was even close to being recognized then they would excerise their option to rejoin Somalia, and that somaliland isn�t viable without them.

# ? Jan 6, 2024 14:13

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://twitter.com/ScentForest2/status/1743439587480060349

https://twitter.com/ScentForest2/status/1743504104599720017

https://twitter.com/ScentForest2/status/1743504708281716764

# ? Jan 6, 2024 14:14

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

good post ty

# ? Jan 6, 2024 14:38

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

god please don't tell me drew pavlova is drawing attention outside Australia/China poo poo

# ? Jan 6, 2024 15:37

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

looking through pics of someone's bike trip through afghanistan. this pic is about five months old; last i saw they just blew the faces off the statues but they've removed every trace now

# ? Jan 6, 2024 23:23

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

i say swears online posted:

looking through pics of someone's bike trip through afghanistan. this pic is about five months old; last i saw they just blew the faces off the statues but they've removed every trace now

taliban office guys fondly reminiscing the old days they got to blow poo poo up, zoomer intern unimpressed

# ? Jan 6, 2024 23:37

tatankatonk: Nov 4, 2011; Pitching is the art of instilling fear.

What are some good books to start with on the modern history of Ethiopia and Somalia?

# ? Jan 6, 2024 23:41

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

i say swears online posted:

looking through pics of someone's bike trip through afghanistan. this pic is about five months old; last i saw they just blew the faces off the statues but they've removed every trace now

no no, the Bamiyan buddhas lacked a face and big chunks of their limbs for a long time, the dynamiting in 2001 was completely removing them.
all the pictures you see of the faceless buddhas are pre 2001

# ? Jan 7, 2024 00:07

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

some kid wrote about this for their college class, PL314, Marx & Marxist Philosophy. some interesting parts to consider. a different perspective...
Seeing Past the Spectacle of the Bamiyan Buddhas � PL314 � Final Projects

web.colby.edu posted:

## Marx-ing with Mansi: A Column at�The Scepter

by�MANSI HITESH, May 16, 2019

In this week�s column, I center the lenses that enable particular events, in this case, the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas in 2001, to become spectacles. I work through the conditions of possibility that undergird the comprehension of the event as a spectacle. I parse what is at stake with rendering the destruction as a spectacle of Islamic fundamentalism, Western humanism, art/iconoclasm, and, as I want to see it, an instance of the fetishization of material physicalities, to implore you to engage the question: what is our investment in cultural and political images of the spectacular, and what material realities do these spectacles obfuscate?

A Bombing in 2001 that�s not 9/11? Some Context for the Eurocentrist, please.�

The Bamiyan Buddhas were a pair of standing statues carved into the side of a cliff in the Bamiyan valley of the Hazarajat region in central Afghanistan. The first of the pair was built in 507 CE and was 35 meters tall, while the second statue was built in 554 CE and was 53 meters tall. (Carlotta 2006) Prior to their destruction, the pair of Buddhas were considered to be the largest standing statues of Buddhas in the world.

The statues were destroyed in several stages over several weeks, starting on the 2 March 2001. Initially, the statues were fired at for a few days using anti-aircraft guns and artillery. This caused severe damage but did not obliterate them. Later, the Taliban placed anti-tank mines at the bottom of the niches, so that when fragments of rock broke off from the firing, they would set off the mines and begin weakening the structural integrity of the statues. In the end, the Taliban lowered men down the cliff face and placed explosives into holes in the Buddhas. After one of the explosions failed to completely obliterate the face of one of the Buddhas, a rocket was launched that left a hole in the remains of the stone head (Power 2004) It is evident from this description that the destruction of the Buddhas was an elaborate and tiered process. However, most coverage of the Bamiyan Buddhas capture only the before and after of the bombing, and not the process of the destruction over time. An example is the first minute from Iranian filmmaker Hana Makhmalbaf�s documentary �Buddha Collapsed Out of Shame,� named after her father,�Mohsen Makhmalbaf�s book titled �The Buddha Was Not Demolished in Afghanistan, It Collapsed Out of Shame.�

The clip from Makhmalbaf�s documentary, the stark contrast between the before and after, increases the spectacularity of the event, however, it is reductive insofar as calling this event the �bombing of the Bamiyan Buddhas,� or deploying the before/after image belies the fact that this was a process of destruction, carried out physically by a group of people, using physical weapons. The statues were fired at�for several days until�the right weapon was found.�The Buddha did not Collapse Out of Shame because of an alleged rise of Islamic Fundamentalism as a conceptual force, the Buddha was destroyed by a group of real, historic, organized, and armed men. As Marx says, �The social structure and the state continually evolve out of the life-process of definite individuals as they really are, that is, as they work, produce materially, and act under definite material limitations, presuppositions, and conditions independent of their will.� (Marx, The German Ideology)

quote:

The Buddha did not Collapse Out of Shame because of an alleged rise of Islamic Fundamentalism as a conceptual force, the Buddha was destroyed by a group of real, historic, organized, and armed men.

Fellow interlocutors at the New York Times and the Guardian have spent time asking about motives, religion, and culture, surprisingly a few have asked the questions: where did the weapons come from? I do not intend to trivialize the issue at hand by implying that a lack of access to weapons would have altered the situation, rather by asking this question, I hope to highlight the first material reality that remains unaddressed in the coverage of the event. In January 2001, two months before the destruction of the Buddhas, the United Nations placed an arms embargo against the Taliban, and hence, Taliban-lead Afghanistan. (United Nations Security Council, Resolution 1363, 2001) Clearly, the Taliban had access to an assortment of arms and granted, the UN resolution was only 2 months old, however, I ask, why is the question of arms less probed into, and perhaps, a less powerful explanatory tool than the religious discourse? One would think that the spectacle of the explosion of the Buddhas should be powerful primarily because of the explosive that can facilitate unlawful violence wherever it is activated. However, most coverage of the event, such as the clip from the documentary, configure the viewer�s lenses (or do we configure them ourselves) such that the viewer is likelier to be left more terrified by the religion of the group (Taliban) than the group�s access to weapons of mass destruction.

Arguably, Althusser�s formulation of the Ideological State Apparatus is pertinent here, insofar as one can understand the misplaced fear of the viewer by understanding religion as a medium through which the State Apparatus enacts its ideological capacities. Here, the State Apparatus is the Taliban-lead Afghanistan that inhabits the politico-legal level of the superstructure and comprehends material events through its legal discourses to produce religion, education, and arts as real, historic, ideologies. The ISA configures discourses to highlight particular realities over others. Emphasis here on realities; Islam and terrorism in the name of Islam are real, however, that does not make them the only realistic explanatory tools one has to comprehend the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas. There is the question of armament but also Mohammad Omar�s shifting stance on the decision of preserving/destroying the Bamiyan Buddhas.

When Mohammad Omar, then President of Taliban-lead Afghanistan, was asked about the Taliban�s governments plans for the Bamiyan Buddha in light of the government�s new policies around idolatry in January 2000, Omar stated that �the government considers the Bamiyan statues as an example of a potential major source of income for Afghanistan from international visitors. The Taliban states that Bamiyan shall not be destroyed but protected.� (Harding 2001). Furthermore, Omar stated that the Buddhas pre-dated Islam and hence, their presence was not a disavowal of Islam. Following this statement, several international donors promised funds toward the full restoration of the Buddhas and the preservation of Afghani cultural heritage at large. There is an asymmetry in the call and response between Taliban and �The international community� here, and to think it through, I want to invoke Benjamin�s vocabulary of aura, cult value, and exhibition value. In the case of an art object, its �most sensitive nucleus �its authenticity� is what comprises its aura. Benjamin argues that �The authenticity of a thing is all that is transmissible from its beginning, ranging from its substantive duration to its testimony, to the history which it has experienced � what is really jeopardized when the historical testimony is affected is the authority of the object, the aura.� It is when this authenticity is jeopardized through processes of mechanical reproduction, that the terms cult value and exhibition value come into play. �Cult value is the intrinsic value of an art piece that prioritizes its existence over its exhibition. The use of the word cult here is important because prioritizing the existence of an object here is synonymous with prioritizing the existence of the cult that lends meaning to the object � to have the Buddhas standing is to have Buddhism or Afghani cultural heritage continue on. When the international community immediately channeled funds into �the restoration of the Buddhas and the preservation of Afghani culture at large� they show a marked investment in the cult value of the Buddhas and other Afghani art objects.

The second type of value that Benjamin conceptualizes is exhibition value, or its display value when it is framed within the context of prescriptive captions and settings such as museums that assign a monetary value to the object. When Omar says the Bamiyan statues (note the use of the word statues and not Buddhas) are a major source of income for the economy, Omar is showing his investment in the exhibition value of the statues. These positions are not unfamiliar; the narrative of the international community, i.e., Western countries as more invested in the traditions of a �developing country� than the developing country itself, which is more focused on money, and it is that investment that marks it as still �developing.� These two interests; interests in cult value and exhibition value are typically understood to be oppositional. However, building from Benjamin and Marx, I contend that these two values are entirely similar, insofar as they share a common premise; the fetishization, and hence, destruction of the aura of the object. The cult value is a fetishization insofar as it understands two statues to be imbued with Afghani culture and history; a history that Marx would tell us is comprised of the actions of living humans, the Afghani people. In that regard, Omar�s actions are less misguided insofar as he is looking to provide resources, basic minima for his peoples by bringing in money into the economy through the statues. However, an investment in the exhibition value of the Buddhas is also a fetishization of the object in the Marxian sense, insofar as Omar is commodifying an object. Omar is denying the use value of the Buddhas as art and reducing the statues to their exchange value. The asymmetry that lies in these investments is not a conceptual antagonism between cult and exchange value, but rather an asymmetry between Omar�s interest in the statues insofar as they further the livelihoods of Afghani peoples, and the international community�s response of funneling money into the restoration of the Buddhas and the preservation of Afghani culture, not funneling in money for the Afghani people themselves.

This asymmetry became even more pointed when Omar announced that the Taliban had discerned that the Buddhas were, in fact, idolatrous and hence, they were going to destroy them. This sparked a vehement response from the international community that understood this wounding the Buddhas as �a Crime Against Culture� (Culture in Development, 2002) committed by a fanatic, mad Islamism. (Harding, 2001) Omar came back with the statement, �All we are breaking are stones. I don�t care about anything but Islam.� (Harding, 2001) What is curious here is that although Omar says that they are breaking stones and refers to the Buddhas as statues one can make the case that the destruction of the Buddhas reveals the power that idols have. There is an implicit fetishization of the statues as objects that draw people in and become the center of religious or artistic activity. Sayed Rahmutallah Hashemi, the then ambassador of the Taliban said that the destruction of the statues was carried out by the Head Council of Scholars after a Swedish monument expert proposed to restore the statues� heads. Hashimi is reported as saying: �When the Afghan head council asked them to provide the money to feed the children instead of fixing the statues, they refused and said, �No, the money is just for the statues, not for the children� (Kassaimah 2001). This statement further concretized the International Community�s investment in the cultural fetishization of the objects as stand-ins for Afghani culture, with little to no regard for the Afghanis who produce and lend meaning to Afghani culture as a phenomena.

The Metropolitan Museum of Arts in the United States approached Omar and offered to buy the statues, or any other artifacts from the government, so they could display them in a museum setting where they would be appreciated. Omar replied with a quip �I am either a seller or destroyer of idols, then.� (Flood, 2002) Finbarr Barry Flood, a professor at NYU, argues that:

quote:
one can make a good case that what was at stake here was not the literal worship of religious idols but their veneration as cultural icons. In particular, there are reasons for thinking that the Taliban edict on images represented an onslaught on cultural fetishism focused on the institution of the museum as a locus of contemporary iconolatry.

Flood�s analysis is supported by Taliban�s claim that they �would not destroy statues that were actually being worshipped and would not touch the Hindu temples still left in Afghanistan.� (New York Times, 2001) The Destruction of the Buddhas was hailed as a crime against culture and a loss for all of humanity, by those who understand themselves as humanists; as valuing humans over dogma, or superstition. This would be the international community that can see past Islam, unlike the Taliban. However, there is room to argue that Taliban�s destruction of the Buddhas and the international community�s response to it, shows that underneath the guise of humanism, is a cult of cultural fetishism, that located cultures in inanimate objects and collects them, so people can come and gaze at the icon in wonder.

The UNESCO Director at the time, Koichiro Matsuura stated that �it was abominable to witness the cold and calculated destruction of cultural properties that were the heritage, not only of the Afghan people but the whole world.� Matsuura then went on to say that �The Buddhas of Bamiyan were not inscribed on the World Heritage List but deserved to be and their destruction represents a true cultural crime. The loss is irreversible.��(Culture in Development, 2002) What is notable here is that the Buddhas were not on the World Heritage List; they had not been officially recognized by UNESCO. However, the destruction of the Buddhas, the spectacle of the explosion, brought attention back to them and suddenly UNESCO realized the Buddhas were worthy and should have been on the Heritage List all along, and because of that belated recognition, it is a true crime that they were destroyed. I would be willing to put the idea on the table that had the Buddhas, any part of them survived, they would have become a Heritage Site post the destruction, but it took the spectacle of Taliban�s actions to bring attention to the Buddhas. It is exactly this kind of ignorance that the Taliban is highlighting; the destruction of the Buddhas was not mere vandalism, it was performative iconoclasm. (Flood 2002) (Falser, 2009) it was a pointed commentary on the sidelining of Afghani culture and Afghani peoples until it became a site of remembrance for Pax Americana.

Despite this, most of the Taliban�s actions were framed as hearkening back to an old, scriptural Islam. (Bearak, 2001) I want to undermine this claim by addressing the third and final material reality that is obscured in coverage of the event; the Taliban went live on YouTube moments before the final explosion of the Buddhas and gave the whole world a perfect view of the explosion, with great sound, great centering, and perfect lighting. The bombing of the Buddhas was a �performance designed for the age of the Internet.� (Flood 2002) The live video that Taliban posted is no longer available, however, the clip of the explosion you saw in the Makhmalbaf�s documentary, is the clip the Taliban circulated. Flood asserts that:

Common to almost any accounts of the Buddhas� demolition was the assumption that their destruction can be situated within their long, culturally determined, and unchanging tradition of violent iconoclastic acts. Collectively or individually, these acts are symptomatic of a kind of cultural pathology known as Islamic iconoclasm, whose ultimate origins lie in the inherent temperamental dislike of Semitic races for representational art � This traditional one- dimensional portrait of Muslim iconoclasm fails to acknowledge its subjects as actors in historical contexts. (Flood 2002)

It is important to understand the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas and the spectacularity of the bombing of the Buddhas as embedded in very particular spatiotemporal moment. The spectacle of the bombing was made possible through access to weaponry, most of which are weapons we associate with modernity. The spectacle was enabled by live-streaming the event on YouTube, and finally, it was enabled by the work of real, historic, actors who read and understood what would evoke a response from the intended audience; the International community.

What makes the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas spectacular? Some have said the barbarity, others, the violence. I say, what makes this event a spectacle, is the inability of the international community to look past the orchestrated spectacle of a bombing, toward a commentary of a military-industrial complex, culture-wars, and real communities. Perhaps we need to rethink who the fanatic in the room is.

the class sounds kinda cool: https://web.colby.edu/pl314-spring19/

mawarannahr has issued a correction as of 10:57 on Jan 7, 2024

# ? Jan 7, 2024 00:15

Horseshoe theory: Mar 7, 2005

i say swears online posted:

looking through pics of someone's bike trip through afghanistan. this pic is about five months old; last i saw they just blew the faces off the statues but they've removed every trace now

Iconoclasm is the One True Ideology, given Catholicism with their reliquaries proudly displaying bones of saints, etc.

# ? Jan 7, 2024 00:18

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Horseshoe theory posted:

Iconoclasm is the One True Ideology, given Catholicism with their reliquaries proudly displaying bones of saints, etc.

looks like iconoclasm lost, bitch

# ? Jan 7, 2024 00:26

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

iconoclasm is fail, and cringe

# ? Jan 7, 2024 00:42

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

i say swears online posted:

looks like iconoclasm lost, bitch

I guess Protestants are iconoclasts. But with Catholics forming 50% of worldwide, add Orthodox to that figure, and the Protestants lost.

# ? Jan 7, 2024 00:43

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

oh so their tasteless temples are intentional then?
makes sense

# ? Jan 7, 2024 00:44

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 20 days!)

I think destroying statues of the Buddha is something the Buddha can get behind. Truly one of the most annoying religions for this fact alone.

# ? Jan 7, 2024 01:22

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

I think destroying statues of the Buddha is something the Buddha can get behind. Truly one of the most annoying religions for this fact alone.

They met the Buddha on the road and killed him

# ? Jan 7, 2024 06:46

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Megamissen posted:

expecting a ethiopia-somaliland war within 6 months

# ? Jan 7, 2024 07:46

thechosenone: Mar 21, 2009

mawarannahr posted:

some kid wrote about this for his college class, PL314, Marx & Marxist Philosophy. some interesting parts to consider. a different perspective...
Seeing Past the Spectacle of the Bamiyan Buddhas � PL314 � Final Projects

the class sounds kinda cool: https://web.colby.edu/pl314-spring19/

When you think about it basically the west had been giving the statues and people who probably had ancestors who were involved in their creation the shaft for hundreds of years. Maybe if we'd actually been willing to pay a real cost and help Afghanistan with food security those statues would be standing today instead of being destroyed to punctuate the fact that we cared more about some old hunks of rock more than real live human beings.

# ? Jan 7, 2024 08:12

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://twitter.com/TerraAbdirizak/status/1743917178359857575

https://twitter.com/YonisYasin1/status/1743935882325807400

Northern Unionists rejecting Somaliland�s MOU with Ethiopia.

# ? Jan 7, 2024 19:18

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018; Can't post for 4 minutes!

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

I think destroying statues of the Buddha is something the Buddha can get behind. Truly one of the most annoying religions for this fact alone.

white people love to get into buddhism and say stuff like money is the root of all evils

# ? Jan 7, 2024 19:46

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 20 days!)

AnimeIsTrash posted:

white people love to get into buddhism and say stuff like money is the root of all evils

brother, your desire is showing

# ? Jan 7, 2024 19:54

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

AnimeIsTrash posted:

white people love to get into buddhism and say stuff like money is the root of all evils

im doing this next year

# ? Jan 8, 2024 04:00

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://twitter.com/HoMan99/status/1743749875416592558

https://twitter.com/OROMIANIST/status/1744025666096357480

# ? Jan 8, 2024 09:42

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

https://twitter.com/nickhedley/status/1740762892893622690?s=20

Hm. I wonder how many of these stand to make a difference?

# ? Jan 8, 2024 10:09

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67749215

Another Evangelical Church Leader turns out to be a rapist, what a surprise!

# ? Jan 8, 2024 13:26

Fortaleza: Feb 21, 2008

Iconoclasm sucks poo poo. You ever been to a dutch reform former-cathedral? Criminally bad taste

To stay on thread topic it's great the Ottomans weren't into that like the wahabbists and lots of other salafis are, the golden horn is ftw

# ? Jan 8, 2024 14:08

Fortaleza: Feb 21, 2008

AnimeIsTrash posted:

white people love to get into buddhism and say stuff like money is the root of all evils

Painfully white dude strolling into the buddhism megathread saying he's already enlightened and getting owned left and right https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3548558&pagenumber=21&perpage=40#post422880236

# ? Jan 8, 2024 14:12

Honky Mao: Dec 26, 2012

I subscribe to secular Buddhism, all the biohacking of meditation without the useless afterlife bullshit

# ? Jan 8, 2024 14:16

Helluva: Feb 7, 2011

Honky Mao posted:

I subscribe to secular Buddhism, all the biohacking of meditation without the useless afterlife bullshit

Soka Gakkai is good. American whites going Buddhism reminds me of an imaginary Japanese friend I have who after making bank started wearing court dresses & wig and annoying weed smokers about epistemological dualism.

# ? Jan 8, 2024 14:26

Honky Mao: Dec 26, 2012

Helluva posted:

Soka Gakkai is good. American whites going Buddhism reminds me of an imaginary Japanese friend I have who after making bank started wearing court dresses & wig and annoying weed smokers about epistemological dualism.

My salary went up 12% since I started meditating and visualizing imaginary friends paying me tribute

# ? Jan 8, 2024 14:28

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 8, 2024 02:59

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Fortaleza posted:

Painfully white dude strolling into the buddhism megathread saying he's already enlightened and getting owned left and right https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3548558&pagenumber=21&perpage=40#post422880236

looks like a permabanned Trump thread guy

# ? Jan 8, 2024 16:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Mideast + Africa] Getting rid of Bongo- but at what Brice?

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