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LividLiquid posted:It could just be that the Chozo didn't happen to leave an Ice Beam on this planet. Samus brought the Ice Beam to ZDR but didn't have it active during the prologue cutscene fight, and it got stole afterwards. Raven Beak then stashed it out-of-bounds at the magma reactors of Catarsis. It was later absorbed by Z-57 who mostly used it to gunk up the thermal generators thus freeze things more generally, and who took the beam along with it to its fiery Core-X grave. The end... or is it??? NO!!! Samus actually vaporizes the Ice Beam X pickup with a Hyper Beam blast just before the final escape sequence. This is all consistent with the game, to the best of my recollections
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Jan 4, 2024 20:24
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WHY BONER NOW posted:Do you guys think Metroid Prime 4 Samus will be Realistic Samus (MP1) or Anime Samus (MP2 and MP3) Claymation Samus
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Jan 6, 2024 17:05
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The Merkinman posted:Claymation Samus She's gonna hunt down Wallace and Gromit for their vandalism of the Moon?
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Jan 6, 2024 17:16
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The Merkinman posted:Claymation Samus Prime 1 Samus is the best she's ever looked. The vague sadness in her eyes was haunting.
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Jan 6, 2024 18:58
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I've rebeaten Prime through Remaster which made me think about how Prime 4 needs to change its upgrade system. Weirdly enough, despite collecting 100% scans, I only reached about 95% items and gave up. In part because the world of Metroid Prime isn't the best, but also because upgrades in Metroid series are at this point a relic from an NES game. So many other modern Metroidvanias have unique items all over the place which makes exploration a joy, but Metroid's been content with littering the game with 50 missile pick-ups. Sure, at first they're fun to collect, but at the end they add around 2% to your total, and considering that the final upgrades you get will be the toughest to find, it's a poo poo reward. I think future Metroids could benefit from missile expansions giving you 25 missiles each, which is a much more noticeable increase. I get that there are so many also so casual players could collect enough, but that can be solved with placing them in more prominent spaces. Prime 1, for example, has missiles in the open after Incinerator Drone and on the way back to Crashed Frigate. At the point where I realized I missed some missiles in Phazon Mines and Phendrana I simply didn't care. After all, at that point they were as useful as picking up random files in a game just to see a "Files found! 25/25" message. It really doesn't help a game about exploration to be so formulaic. You pretty much know all that you're going to find off the beaten path save for a few things, and often know what you'll find along the way, since so many games just reuse their upgrades. Combo beams from Prime 1 are a good example of an optional upgrade, and they could've been upgraded further by requiring fewer missiles to shoot. Also, the beams themselves could have upgrades, as by the end of the game plasma beam eliminates everything in one charged shot unless it's color coded. That way the player could stick with their favorite and not feel like they're playing the game wrong. I definitely felt like Ice Beam could REALLY benefit from faster attack speed and shot speed.
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Jan 7, 2024 14:33
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There's a Super Metroid Romhack LP going on right now with charge speed, overall damage, number of space jumps and other upgrades, that's really cool and sounds like your ideas
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Jan 7, 2024 14:39
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Vookatos posted:I've rebeaten Prime through Remaster which made me think about how Prime 4 needs to change its upgrade system. You're complaining that missile expansions become too meaningless late game and then note that they *could* introduce a way of making beam combos were viable? There already is, it's getting more missile expansions! Also Prime 2 did already address alot of these issues, the Light & Dark Beams were both more situational and the Annihilator beam was too much of an ammo guzzler to spam constantly, I'd be surprised if Prime 4 just returned to the design principles of the first one when 2 & 3 already iterated on its mechanics significantly
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Jan 7, 2024 15:11
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No Dignity posted:You're complaining that missile expansions become too meaningless late game and then note that they *could* introduce a way of making beam combos were viable? There already is, it's getting more missile expansions! Also Prime 2 did already address alot of these issues, the Light & Dark Beams were both more situational and the Annihilator beam was too much of an ammo guzzler to spam constantly, I'd be surprised if Prime 4 just returned to the design principles of the first one when 2 & 3 already iterated on its mechanics significantly While future games definitely had some way of going about new things, none addressed how meaningless missiles have been since Super Nintendo era or provided any surprising optional items. I've not played 2 or 3 in years, and I do recall them being a little better, but Dread has reverted to similar issues with most upgrades being not only something player will expect, but by the end of the game likely stuff they won't need. Granted, Dread along with other 2D Metroids doesn't base ending on your completion, but Prime games do, and you might spend an hour of the game searching for things that don't even benefit you gameplay-wise because you want to complete the game. I feel like if Metroid wasn't dead for a decade we'd be talking about Metroid Formula the same way we did about Zelda becoming stale around Twilight Princess/Skyward Sword, especially in the wake of games like Hollow Knight, most goodies in which are mostly optional with some changing the game entirely.
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Jan 7, 2024 15:46
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I think that's only a roblem if you're a completionist? Like I kinda like how upgrades are distributed in the Prime games, because if you're paying attention you can find little incredmental upgrades everywhere, but like you're rarely losing out on a big thing if you miss a few. Like honestly I'd be far more annoyed if the series went more Hollow Knight, that game's fine at what it does but it has way less rewarding exploration and would be a terrible model for metroidvanias as a whole going forward
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Jan 7, 2024 16:06
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The diminishing returns on getting more missiles only really kick in late in the game, right around the point where power bomb expansions are introduced as a more scarce and valuable collectible to hunt for. There’s not really anything wrong with those last few missile upgrades being something you seek out only for the 100% cutscene. If it were only 10 missile packs worth 25 each then missing an expansion or two would make a huge difference in the amount of firepower you have, so combat encounters would need to be balanced with the expectation that the player might have a fraction as many missiles, which means missiles would be less useful.
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Jan 7, 2024 16:41
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For easy fixes to missile expansions feeling worthless lategame, make the first few you collect give 5, then at 50 or so capacity, missile packs give 10 instead. There's surely better ways to design it from the ground up but this seems like an easy method
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Jan 7, 2024 17:02
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A lot of Metroidvanias get kinda desperate for collectables to fill the world with that may not be strictly necessary, but make players feel rewarded for exploring the world. Metroid Prime already has plenty of mobility upgrades and tools that you collect in the process of your journey that you've forgotten about. Missiles might not be that exciting, but other games try to fill that hole with cosmetics or concept art that can be similarly underwhelming. If ammo isn't really that precious for gameplay, that's kind of another thing, and I've never really yearned for the experience of running out of ammo even though I understand its emotional value in games. Maybe they could go back to doors taking 5 missiles to open. Something I kinda resent about Metroid is that a number of its mobility upgrades are always kinda janky and need extra skill to use. You get the shine spark, and okay now you have this ability where you can shoot around like a rocket, but it's this weird timing where you gotta kinda crouch and direct it that I've never been good at. You get the space jump, and it's maybe one of the most powerful jump upgrades out there in metroidvanias, but you can only double jump at a specific point in the arc, and that's pretty hard to do too. The point I'm at in Metroid 2, I had to get through this room full of spikes, and I was kind of just brute-forcing it, but then at the end there's a fight with a new type of metroid in a room full of sand, so I both had to carve out enough room for a missile and discover that since this metroid has feet, it's immune to attacks from below. A real pain. I managed to win the fight with 11 energy left, but since I'd have to go all the way back through the room full of spikes to get back out, I think I'll just have to reload a save state and try something different.
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Jan 8, 2024 00:38
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Vookatos posted:When talking about beam combos what I meant was that if there were an upgrade on saving cost, I'd like it to be meaningful. 5 missiles isn't enough to shoot any combo beam in Prime 1 and with Wavebuster and Flamethrower those 5 missiles give you a second of use. Picking up a single missile expansion in the late-game is the equivalent of a looter shooter giving you a 0.2% crit chance. Although granted I could've used wind-up speed increase instead or something as an example. You'd be more convincing if you could remember basic facts about the game. 5 missiles is one basic super missile, the most useful combo for most of the game. That's a pretty nice reward anywhere short of endgame, and by that point you're close enough to 100 percent that most players will find just getting closer to 100 satisfaction enough.
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Jan 8, 2024 01:27
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I don't think I've ever bothered 100%ing it. You get helmetless Samus at 75%. Tjhat's all I care about. Sequel hooks are just whatever in general, usually, but since I absolutely loathe Prime 2 and Dark Samus, I double plus don't give a poo poo about seeing that one.
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Jan 8, 2024 01:32
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chiasaur11 posted:You'd be more convincing if you could remember basic facts about the game. 5 missiles is one basic super missile, the most useful combo for most of the game. That's a pretty nice reward anywhere short of endgame, and by that point you're close enough to 100 percent that most players will find just getting closer to 100 satisfaction enough. Kinda wild to say "Would be cool if Metroid went La-Mulana/Hollow Knight way and featured more things" and constantly hear "yeah but you can shoot more!"
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Jan 8, 2024 11:44
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The point is it means you don't need to find everything, just finding most of the missile and bomb upgrades is enough. And Hollow Knight just had less upgrades in general, which often made traversing it's flabby, excessively grand world less rewarding in general, I'm not sure why it's being held up as the good one here
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Jan 8, 2024 11:54
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The main reason to go hunting for all the extras is to have another exuse for the fun of taversing all the way through the game. Maybe ideally it'd help make the game easier, but most games aren't really built for that. Hollow Knight sure doesn't make itself much easier if you decide to go trekking about instead of finishing the game. The problem with offering mechanical rewards for exploration is you might end up with nothing to use the rewards on. Nobody's really making you engage with the game more if you don't want to.
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Jan 8, 2024 20:07
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Hollow Knight rules because instead of Missile Upgrade #23468123, dicking around in the weird corners of the map lets you find sick boss fights, entirely new endings locked behind sicko platforming, and actually meaningful upgrade material that you have a plenty of reasons to need for said bosses, in an arena etc. - I have no idea what planet you're from where exploring that game isn't the bee's knees (sometimes literally).
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Jan 8, 2024 20:17
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The progression in Hollow Knight where you start as a weak flobby baby and eventually become a flying mass of hitboxes works for that game but it would definitely make people mad in Metroid. Imagining the reaction to a Metroid game where Samus' movement starts significantly worse than the "basics", oof.
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Jan 8, 2024 20:26
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metroid just needs to embrace The Dress Up and have tons of different colored panels and doo-dads you can find and mix-and-match to create your own bad-rear end chozo armor design.
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Jan 8, 2024 20:28
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mycot posted:The progression in Hollow Knight where you start as a weak flobby baby and eventually become a flying mass of hitboxes works for that game but it would definitely make people mad in Metroid. Imagining the reaction to a Metroid game where Samus' movement starts significantly worse than the "basics", oof. You’re basically describing Metroid Fusion. The thing that’s fun about finding power ups in Metroid games is solving the puzzles. They can be fun sometimes, especially the shinespark puzzles in Dread that are very creative. Edit: I know we were talking about Prime 1 but Dread is very fun to explore since they built it to encourage sequence breaks so you can find weird teleporters and poo poo depending on when you get items. Not to mention it’s funny as hell that you can insta-kill at least two bosses by sequence breaking. I think they’ve solved that particular issue, Dread didn’t feel bloated to me. Blackbelt Bobman fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jan 8, 2024 |
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Jan 8, 2024 20:47
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So in OG Metroid 2 the way you switch between beams is by going back and actually re-finding the beam you want to switch to, right? What if I’m lazy and don’t want to backtrack, is there a beam that’s overall the most useful that I could just find and keep for the rest of the game?
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Jan 8, 2024 20:49
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Xenomrph posted:So in OG Metroid 2 the way you switch between beams is by going back and actually re-finding the beam you want to switch to, right? you're correct, you can't easily switch the distribution of beams is designed in a way where you don't really have to think about this problem
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Jan 8, 2024 20:52
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cheetah7071 posted:you're correct, you can't easily switch What do you mean?
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Jan 8, 2024 21:02
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Xenomrph posted:So in OG Metroid 2 the way you switch between beams is by going back and actually re-finding the beam you want to switch to, right? Slight spoilers: One of the last exploration areas has a bunch of beam rooms next to each other where you can pick whatever you want. Also, the one time in the endgame when you need a specific beam to progress it's available right before you need it, if you poke around a bit. So you can just grab the latest beam without having to worry about actually backtracking for beams.
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Jan 8, 2024 21:03
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Xenomrph posted:What do you mean? I mean that if you just sort of bumble through, it'll be completely fine and you'll never really be in trouble, beam-wise. The game is not going to try to own you by giving you a bad beam and forcing you to backtrack to the last good one. It's nice to the player.
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Jan 8, 2024 21:04
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Awesome, thanks for the tips, both of you!
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Jan 8, 2024 21:17
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Xenomrph posted:So in OG Metroid 2 the way you switch between beams is by going back and actually re-finding the beam you want to switch to, right? Xenomrph posted:What if I’m lazy and don’t want to backtrack, is there a beam that’s overall the most useful that I could just find and keep for the rest of the game? The problem with all this is that I never use the spazer since the plasma beam is like right next to it.
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Jan 8, 2024 21:30
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Yes, but there's one place towards the end of the game that an additional set of all the beam statues next to each other. And there's a third ice beam when you uh, need it. Spazer's use is mostly in that it's better at clearing sand than the more powerful but less covering plasma beam. So it's power versus utility, I almost always use the plasma over the spazer though.
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Jan 8, 2024 21:57
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I didn't realize you were supposed to be thinking about switching beams, I just kinda assumed whatever beam you found next would be better.Simply Simon posted:Hollow Knight rules because instead of Missile Upgrade #23468123, dicking around in the weird corners of the map lets you find sick boss fights, entirely new endings locked behind sicko platforming, and actually meaningful upgrade material that you have a plenty of reasons to need for said bosses, in an arena etc. - I have no idea what planet you're from where exploring that game isn't the bee's knees (sometimes literally). I'm really not sure what you're saying is different about the collectables. I guess there's more of a variety? You got the six pale ores, the pieces of heart, the magic container fragments, the badges, the rancid eggs, and then after that there's outright vendor trash with no purpose but to trade for more Geo. I guess the world of Hollow Knight also has a lot more character and personality than Metroid usually does. There's more background storytelling about the world that you're in even without diving into lore, and I never really got the feeling like the places in the Metroid games were places where people used to live, even though they did trailblaze in making atmospheric areas back in the days of lower technology. Exploration is more of its own reward. NPCs are entirely non-mechanical rewards to be able to talk to, and no I don't think long exposition dumps from Adam counts as the same thing. I want talking to NPCs to be more my choice and not last two minutes. I do think I want to play AM2R sometime, because I know that they established one of the Metroid 2 areas as like a factory, and I think it was really obvious when I ran into that area in the game. Metroid 2 definitely tries to make all of its areas look different even though it is unable to express that with color like Super Metroid did.
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Jan 11, 2024 01:49
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SlothfulCobra posted:I'm really not sure what you're saying is different about the collectables. I guess there's more of a variety? You got the six pale ores, the pieces of heart, the magic container fragments, the badges, the rancid eggs, and then after that there's outright vendor trash with no purpose but to trade for more Geo. You're forgetting the airdash, the double jump, and the walljump, which all change the way the game is played dramatically.
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Jan 11, 2024 02:01
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It depends on if you mean "exploration" as in "finding all the big things" or "exploration" as in "poking every goddamn nook and cranny." Hollow Knight is hugely rewarding for the former, not so much for the latter.
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Jan 11, 2024 02:03
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mycot posted:You're forgetting the airdash, the double jump, and the walljump, which all change the way the game is played dramatically. I mean those are the mobility upgrades that are inherent to the Metroidvania formula. The Metroid games have plenty of those. That's not talking about the value of things that you collect, that's just talking about whether you like the basic systems of movement that the games are built around. Which I guess Hollow Knight is generally a bit more fun to traverse and its mobility upgrades don't have the same sort of jank as the space jump, shinespark, and walljump, but a fair amount of Hollow Knight's smoothness is that it's a much newer game designed with better understandings of game design. There's even an advantage to the player character in Hollow Knight being a tiny little guy; the choice of giving Samus a big full-figure sprite meant that the game screen had so much less space to give the player to move around or look at the world around them, and every development of technology zoomed the camera out a bit further to be a bit better about that.
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Jan 11, 2024 04:04
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Absolutely insane to me to see Metroid's movement abilities and level design trashed compared to Hollow Knight's. The one good platforming trick that game has is pogo-ing and the environments are for the most part extremely plain in terms of technical platforming outside a few areas like the crystal caves and white palace, compared to the world traversal of Super Metroid and how varied your movement options and obstacles are in that I just don't know what to say lol
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Jan 11, 2024 12:48
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Space jump and shinespark are pretty janky tbf but I'll still never understand people who don't "get" Metroid walljumping.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:44
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Super Metroid walljumping was extremely hard for me as a kid because my child brain could not grasp the concept that you have to press the opposite direction slightly before jumping. I remember literally softlocking myself in that area in Brinstar that tries to teach you to walljump because I just could not get out. As an adult, it's pretty simple now.
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Jan 11, 2024 14:51
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Space Jump is jank but all your other options are cool imo. Ice beam, grapple beam and speed booster all give you fun, novel movement options and the level geometry changes dramatically between the various regions and gives you fairly different contexts your using your tools in. Like even today, that's the gold standard in metroidvania design imo
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Jan 11, 2024 14:58
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The dread dash/air dash is a real game changer for metroid movement, I'm looking forward to how they iterate upon it and design around it
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Jan 11, 2024 15:03
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WHY BONER NOW posted:The dread dash/air dash is a real game changer for metroid movement, I'm looking forward to how they iterate upon it and design around it This is the first Metroid game I’ve played where Samus’ backstory of being superhuman* started matching up to her in-game abilities. *At this point, her genetic test results would just be a “WHAT THE CHRISTING gently caress  ” note from whoever did the test.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:34
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Johnson, for fucks sake you obviously contaminated this blood sample AGAIN. Ask her for another one --no, YOU loving do it-- and repeat it one more time. Get it right or we're going to have to let you go
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Jan 11, 2024 15:46
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