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New Leaf posted:Hey Goons, I've graduated from the "resume and interview" thread and now need negotiation help. I basically got 2 offers on Friday. One was an offer to return to a job I was laid off from in July as their source of work came back. Same pay as before, no room to negotiate. My previous role was as a telecom engineering PM. Our main client stopped all work in June 2023, and right after July 4 they laid off 20% of my department. The client came back and has promised work out through 2026 at minimum, and then - who the gently caress knows, more layoffs I guess? I should get out of telecom, but I've done it for almost 12 years now. The other offer is a completely different career path working at the IT/data center of a large bank in a project coordinator/administrative capacity. Crossposting my response from the resume thread and then fleshing it out a bit... Off the top of my head I would heavily favor the remote job. I would rather have $63,000 fully remote than $70,000 mostly rear end-in-seat--and I don't believe them for a second that you'll even get the 2 days of WFH, that'll probably end up changing to 100% rear end-in-seat soon after you start. The better bennies are a significant consideration, but even accounting for that, man I would not take that commute for anything less than like $80K personally. You can just say "This looks great but I have another offer which is a fully remote position, which makes it very attractive to me. I would love to join your team but I would need to get $85,000 for this to work on my end." Full stop, nothing more need said. It's up to you how much more it would require for you to make that move and live with the commute. But my advice is (1) work from the assumption that this will turn out to be a 100% rear end-in-seat job, and (2) make sure you know exactly what number would make you happy to take that job, and then ask for a little bit more than that. They will very likely say no. But it's still worthwhile to ask. Don't go off explaining the reasons why you think they should give you more money. Just say "I need this much" and stop. Be positive, friendly, professional, but firm in asking for what you want. That's if you hate commuting as much as I do. If however you're inclined to take the bank job even at $62,000 and don't care about the commute, then yes you should still ask for like $72,000, with the same wording and confidence as above. Give them room to negotiate you down and end up feeling like they won--while you still get what you actually wanted. e: Despite how much I hate commuting, there is definitely something to be said for not going back to a company that's already treated you callously and continues to do so. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 20:25
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I’d normally say don’t go back to a company that sacked you before. Mainly because you know you’re going to be the first one out when it happens again. If you don’t mind the company/coworkers/job I’d still ask to get more money, too compensate for the (un)certainty of them ditching you whenever it suits them. If they alreasy say they will only match your previous salary you can fully expect them ti use you as a disposable resource. Personally I wouldn’t take it without a serious amount of money to alleviate the risk. Like 15-25%, too which they will almost certainly say no. The downside here is your BATNA. The other offer seems to be worse in most if not all aspects. In this case I’d probably take the old job and keep actively seeking other employment.
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Jan 6, 2024 21:09
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I'm not American so take with a grain of salt, but I think the blended offer may be better, and you perhaps have room to negotiate a slightly higher salary. 4 weeks paid leave is very good, plus the additional 16 hours school kids leave is a nice bonus. As noted, unlimited pto is a scam, would you ever get more than 4 weeks? Also does the 4 weeks roll over year to year? The way the first job was framed made it seem like it's still tenuous and unstable, so maybe it's time for something new?
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Jan 6, 2024 21:14
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62k for a project manager with experience (thats actually good) seems to be on the low end. Are you in a cost of living are where thats right? The bare minimum you should negotiate for returning to the previous job is a project completion bonus and/or job placement and severance, +- continuation of benefits after you're sacked. After all, this is the second rodeo. You know what's coming. You know htem better - Do you think they'll pull the job offer if you negotiate, or is it a genuine take it or leave it?
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Jan 6, 2024 21:25
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Project Manager means different things at different places I've found. It's more just a title here, I didn't deal with any financials or negotiating, only documentation gathering, engineering scheduling, tracking milestones, etc. Realistically it would be anyone else's Project Coordinator that I got promoted out of. I'm working on my PMP slowly. I'm on mobile so can't look at everything right now but I appreciate everyone's advice so far! Edit: I did want to say that I'm 99% sure this will stay 3 in/2 out because it came up multiple times during the interview process, including the round meeting with the team. Plus, my wife's aunt works for the same organization in a different capacity and that's been her schedule for years. And yeah, the previous job is tenuous, all of telecom is. What happened was AT&T - our major client - decided to stop all work for the foreseeable future back in June 2023 and blindsided us. We knew it was temporary but days turned into weeks, then months.. So they did 3 rounds of layoffs. At the end of 2023 AT&T decided to ramp back up, they changed equipment vendors and were ready to swap all their old equipment out for the new company and promised all this work out til 2026. So now my old firm is hot and ready to go and wants me back all of a sudden after kicking me to the curb before. I'm just afraid we're another upset away from shutdown again, which is why I want out. I'm just apprehensive about asking the bank for more because they know they're taking a gamble on me, but I am willing to ask for more due to the commute. I don't hate commuting honestly! I listen to a lot of podcasts on the road. I know the route well - I worked near this place for years - and it flows well most days unless there's an accident. When I asked the old job if they'd sweeten the pot since they ruined my 2023 they were basically just like "unfortunately no, this is the offer." New Leaf fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 22:14
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New Leaf posted:Project Manager means different things at different places I've found. It's more just a title here, I didn't deal with any financials or negotiating, only documentation gathering, engineering scheduling, tracking milestones, etc. Realistically it would be anyone else's Project Coordinator that I got promoted out of. I'm working on my PMP slowly. I'd take the old job and then immediately start looking for a new job. Your resume will say employer "Project Manager XXX corp 202X - 2024". From that I'd start immediately start looking for a new job that pays what you should probably make which is more like 100k. And now that is 10x easier because you are an awesome PM, currently employed.
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Jan 7, 2024 06:47
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downout posted:I'd take the old job and then immediately start looking for a new job. I would also do this, but I'd give a "shoot for the moon" number as negotiation to the new job first to see if they bite. But yeah, taking a 1k pay cut and having to commute 3 days a week (and maybe more in the future) isn't something I'd ever consider unless the old job was hell on earth. At least you'll be working at a job that you know you like (enough anyway) while you keep applying for other jobs. Just consider it an upgraded temp job while you look.
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Jan 8, 2024 15:56
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It's bizarre that you guys are giving different advice from my pretty business savvy friends.. They say take the new job and gently caress the old job that hosed me as they could turn around and do layoffs again in 6 months with how tumultuous telecom is. I see merit in both approaches, but I sent an $8k increase counter to see what they do. If it's acceptable I'll probably take the bank data center job for the stability.
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Jan 8, 2024 16:08
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New Leaf posted:It's bizarre that you guys are giving different advice from my pretty business savvy friends.. They say take the new job and gently caress the old job that hosed me as they could turn around and do layoffs again in 6 months with how tumultuous telecom is. There is a lot of wisdom in this. I just really really hate commuting. e: of course oldjob could also yank away the WFH next month too, you never know.
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Jan 8, 2024 16:16
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Yeah I was gonna go to bat for the new job. It sounds like you don't want to stay in telecom. The longer you stay there, the harder it will be to leave. You have a decent off-ramp now. If you can negotiate a little more money it's probably a long term better play for your career prospects (again, assuming that you don't want to stay in telecom). Commutes are annoying and costly but if you get that compensated then I don't see a reason not to take the new job. rear end in seat time is valuable if you're trying to break in to a new industry.
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Jan 8, 2024 16:32
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My big concern is new job sounded way more like an admin job and not so much as a project manager, which isn't a great growth opportunity. I do think you should have no blinders on about old job, but it's more money, remote, and good boss so its not a bad place to spin wheels while you find a better landing spot.
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Jan 8, 2024 16:35
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Honestly, both options suck and I think you can do better than both of them. Take whichever seems most satisfying and internalize the fully disposable way you were treated by OldJob. They let you go when it was convenient for them. They wanted to hire you back, without any sort of flexibility or negotiation, once it was convenient for them. Internalize that this is how monetary relationships work. If commuting is as awful as Eric (and I) feel for you, take OldJob and keep looking. If it's not, take NewJob and keep looking. I think if you stay on the job hunt you can probably find something better than both, but ending your unemployment now is better than holding out for it so long as you keep looking.
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Jan 8, 2024 17:22
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New Leaf posted:It's bizarre that you guys are giving different advice from my pretty business savvy friends.. They say take the new job and gently caress the old job that hosed me as they could turn around and do layoffs again in 6 months with how tumultuous telecom is. I see merit in both approaches, but I sent an $8k increase counter to see what they do. If it's acceptable I'll probably take the bank data center job for the stability. The key thing with going back to the old job is that you still are actively, regularly looking for and applying to other jobs while you're there. If you aren't going to do that, then yes, take the new job instead- there absolutely is a risk of you getting laid off again at the old job. But if you're looking for a new job the entire time, it's fairly likely that you'll find one before any layoffs happen and you'll at least be working comfortably during that period of time. If you know you aren't going to be diligent about seeking new opportunities while you're re-employed at the old job, then absolutely take the new job instead so you aren't set up for a future layoff (or at least are less likely to be anyway).
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Jan 8, 2024 17:31
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Gonna echo what everyone else has already said: if you're leaning towards old job, you should still act like you're unemployed and apply/interview accordingly. Doesn't matter how cool the boss is, at the end of the day they clearly don't have the power to impact your continued employment and the company itself will discard you the moment it's convenient.
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Jan 8, 2024 17:44
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Plus if you find something better it’s nice to return the favor to old company.
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Jan 8, 2024 18:39
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m0therfux0r posted:The key thing with going back to the old job is that you still are actively, regularly looking for and applying to other jobs while you're there. If you aren't going to do that, then yes, take the new job instead- there absolutely is a risk of you getting laid off again at the old job. But if you're looking for a new job the entire time, it's fairly likely that you'll find one before any layoffs happen and you'll at least be working comfortably during that period of time. There's also the overemployment option: Take both jobs, but tell the old job you have limited availability due to prior obligations. Simply overlap your remote days and/or extend it a day into the weekend. It'll suck a bit until newjob becomes comfy, but there's some upsides: Your old job you can (probably) do in your sleep, you get the unbroken/no break in your resume benefit, and if they want you on five days a week you have the power to say 'no, 'm happy in this schedule', and can pick one to stick with later. Learn everything you can from the new job, coast at the old one, tough it out until you just feel the edges of burn out creeping in, then ditch one and take some vacation.
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Jan 8, 2024 19:52
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christ I got tired just reading that
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Jan 8, 2024 19:53
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New Leaf posted:Hey Goons, I've graduated from the "resume and interview" thread and now need negotiation help. I basically got 2 offers on Friday. One was an offer to return to a job I was laid off from in July as their source of work came back. Same pay as before, no room to negotiate. My previous role was as a telecom engineering PM. Our main client stopped all work in June 2023, and right after July 4 they laid off 20% of my department. The client came back and has promised work out through 2026 at minimum, and then - who the gently caress knows, more layoffs I guess? I should get out of telecom, but I've done it for almost 12 years now. The other offer is a completely different career path working at the IT/data center of a large bank in a project coordinator/administrative capacity. I wouldn't go back to the old job, sounds like a dead end and they don't sound like they value you very highly. If you ask for 70 at the new place, they'll either give you 65 or tell you to pound sand. I feel like you don't have tons of leverage, partly because I don't think the other offer is significant beyond being able to say you have one. Just say, "I'd be happy to accept a position at 70." 5k over is not ridiculous. Though it's not likely they'll capitulate fully. I've typically seen a response to a counter being the midpoint.
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Jan 8, 2024 20:03
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TheParadigm posted:There's also the overemployment option: Take both jobs, but tell the old job you have limited availability due to prior obligations. Simply overlap your remote days and/or extend it a day into the weekend. It'll suck a bit until newjob becomes comfy, but there's some upsides: Your old job you can (probably) do in your sleep, you get the unbroken/no break in your resume benefit, and if they want you on five days a week you have the power to say 'no, 'm happy in this schedule', and can pick one to stick with later. I mean, sure, that's an option- I just wrote my original reply assuming that New Leaf wasn't a masochist.
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Jan 8, 2024 20:07
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New Leaf posted:It's bizarre that you guys are giving different advice from my pretty business savvy friends.. They say take the new job and gently caress the old job that hosed me as they could turn around and do layoffs again in 6 months with how tumultuous telecom is. I see merit in both approaches, but I sent an $8k increase counter to see what they do. If it's acceptable I'll probably take the bank data center job for the stability. Spite gets you a long way, but there are limits to it. Is loving them back worth it to you? Only you can decide.
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Jan 8, 2024 20:08
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I say gently caress the old job because it sounds like you are 100% dependent on AT&T keeping their “promise” of having work for you. There are no guarantees. They hosed you once they can do it again. You’ll be back at square one with the same experience as before and nothing to show for it. Really what you should negotiate for with the bank job is a mileage reimbursement for having to drive in. Pretty unlikely they’ll do it but doesn’t hurt to ask
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Jan 8, 2024 20:16
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New Leaf posted:It's bizarre that you guys are giving different advice from my pretty business savvy friends.. They say take the new job and gently caress the old job that hosed me as they could turn around and do layoffs again in 6 months with how tumultuous telecom is. I see merit in both approaches, but I sent an $8k increase counter to see what they do. If it's acceptable I'll probably take the bank data center job for the stability. This is what I said, so turns out I'm uhhh business savvy 
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Jan 8, 2024 20:34
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I ended up going with the bank job. I didn't get my asking, but we landed a couple grand higher than my previous role and they seem like a much healthier environment, so I'm happy. There's other factors.. I did some soul searching last night and I think sitting at home all day might be slowly killing me. The weight I've put on since COVID and switching to a remote position is no joke. Plus, there are days I don't even see the sun. I need to break out of this place. I'm charging up the ol' Fitbit and calling this an opportunity to lose some weight by having an office to walk around. Now to find some "business casual" clothes I don't hate wearing. I appreciate everyone's advice! 
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Jan 8, 2024 21:17
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TheParadigm posted:There's also the overemployment option: Take both jobs, but tell the old job you have limited availability due to prior obligations. Simply overlap your remote days and/or extend it a day into the weekend. It'll suck a bit until newjob becomes comfy, but there's some upsides: Your old job you can (probably) do in your sleep, you get the unbroken/no break in your resume benefit, and if they want you on five days a week you have the power to say 'no, 'm happy in this schedule', and can pick one to stick with later. How do you handle explaining the overlapping employment in your history when searching for the next job? If you crop the end date of prevjob or start date of currjob there's the risk of a red flag popping up if someone checks your start/end dates. E: "next job" refers to the 3rd job (nextjob). i.e. prevjob and currjob overlap, how do you explain the overlap when interviewing with nextjob? Mantle fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 8, 2024 |
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Jan 8, 2024 21:41
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Thats a question for some of the overempoyed folks here, but I was assuming you just leave J2 off your resume. (the context was to keep looking) ie do this downout posted:I'd take the old job and then immediately start looking for a new job. Your resume will say employer "Project Manager XXX corp 202X - 2024". From that I'd start immediately start looking for a new job that pays what you should probably make which is more like 100k. And now that is 10x easier because you are an awesome PM, currently employed.
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Jan 8, 2024 21:47
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New Leaf posted:I ended up going with the bank job. I didn't get my asking, but we landed a couple grand higher than my previous role and they seem like a much healthier environment, so I'm happy. There's other factors.. I did some soul searching last night and I think sitting at home all day might be slowly killing me. The weight I've put on since COVID and switching to a remote position is no joke. Plus, there are days I don't even see the sun. I need to break out of this place. I'm charging up the ol' Fitbit and calling this an opportunity to lose some weight by having an office to walk around. Now to find some "business casual" clothes I don't hate wearing. I appreciate everyone's advice!
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Jan 8, 2024 22:45
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Yeah, everyone had opinions but I am glad you put some non-kneejerk thought into it and I feel like you're likely making the right decision.
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Jan 8, 2024 22:52
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TheParadigm posted:There's also the overemployment option: Take both jobs, but tell the old job you have limited availability due to prior obligations. Simply overlap your remote days and/or extend it a day into the weekend. It'll suck a bit until newjob becomes comfy, but there's some upsides: Your old job you can (probably) do in your sleep, you get the unbroken/no break in your resume benefit, and if they want you on five days a week you have the power to say 'no, 'm happy in this schedule', and can pick one to stick with later. IANAL but this is probably violating one or both employment contracts, this is maybe not great advice
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Jan 8, 2024 23:43
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Gotta have a contract to violate first. At-will is the norm in the US, sadly.
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Jan 8, 2024 23:52
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Femtosecond posted:Got offers from both the places I applied to. Both are neutral if not worse compensation than what I have right now (and it's not like I'm absurdly over paid here...). Really goes to show the impact of the recession environment and the mass layoffs that have been going on this year and last. Following up on this: The previous "offers" I received were verbal offers over the phone discussion with the recruiters around how much they were interested in paying, and so now that Christmas break is over I've received the first clear email offer from one of the companies I was considering, the local Canadian one, and fortunately the number seems significantly revised upward from what we discussed over the phone. Maybe it's because I was expressing some disappointment over the number when I was discussing previous to Christmas. Perhaps I wasn't hearing correctly previously, but seems like they added 10k more base salary, and instead of vesting some block of shares over three years, now it's two, which remarkably increases the compensation. Additionally something I neglected to consider was that shares are of course USD, so the exchange here really helps. So now this previously lousy number I heard over the phone a few weeks ago is now quite a bit better and well within the expectations I had of what a fair market salary was. So I suppose now I do have a move to make here in telling the American firm that I have this Canadian compensation in hand. Has anyone has ever done this sort of cross border negotiation before and can give advice? Given that the US job would require a relocation and the costs seem somewhat samey if not higher* in America than Canada, it seems to me it's most fair that the US company should effectively be the same as the Canadian salary albeit in USD. Does that make sense? What do folks think? There's a bit of a tax difference but not that much. The US salary could be a bit less and still be better, but it seems to me like a straight CAD -> USD conversion would yield a US salary that is much too low and well below the US market. (eg. if you converted a 150k cad salary straight you'd arrive at 112k usd, and that doesn't seem great if in both places a pint of beer costs the same at $8) Maybe it makes sense to share the Canadian after tax income with the US recruiter and that would cut some of the vagueness out of it? * https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&city1=Vancouver&country2=United+States&city2=Austin%2C+TX (Like sure an Apple iPad is way cheaper in America, but stuff like a coffee or rent is cheaper in Canada and food/beer seems largely similar) Femtosecond fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jan 9, 2024 |
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Jan 9, 2024 00:31
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It's probably worth adding a bit more for health insurance, since you're moving from somewhere that has functioning healthcare to a blasted capitalist hellscape.
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Jan 9, 2024 01:48
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Arquinsiel posted:Congrats my goon. You've identified what is a win for you and got it for yourself. Lockback posted:Yeah, everyone had opinions but I am glad you put some non-kneejerk thought into it and I feel like you're likely making the right decision. Thanks everyone, beyond excited to be going back to work after 6 months of searching.
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Jan 9, 2024 02:38
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New Leaf posted:I ended up going with the bank job. I didn't get my asking, but we landed a couple grand higher than my previous role and they seem like a much healthier environment, so I'm happy. There's other factors.. I did some soul searching last night and I think sitting at home all day might be slowly killing me. The weight I've put on since COVID and switching to a remote position is no joke. Plus, there are days I don't even see the sun. I need to break out of this place. I'm charging up the ol' Fitbit and calling this an opportunity to lose some weight by having an office to walk around. Now to find some "business casual" clothes I don't hate wearing. I appreciate everyone's advice! Goongrats!!! I actually enjoy blended employment with some days in the office for the exact same reason!
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Jan 9, 2024 03:25
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So, you really can't just plug in a CAD number and have it spit out in the US. At the end of the day, it depends on industry, cities, firms, etc. Also the US is huge. A salary in Indiana is going to be very different than a salary in New York vs Chicago vs San Francisco. Where I live in MN, Toronto is significantly higher COL than where I am. It looks like your looking at Austin, TX which I don't expect will be 30% more expensive CoL (even factoring in healthcare) vs Vancouver. However, if you're looking at a software gig I'd expect the market in Austin to be way hotter. I think your trick "CAD salary just converted into USD" is probably not going to give you much In any case, your employer isn't going to care about how much your spending on beer. This is the same thing we tell people who try to come up with "reasons" to negotiate, all that matters is you as an employee and what the market will bear. Do what research you can to see what kind of market things look like in Austin and get a number that makes sense.
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Jan 9, 2024 04:38
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Femtosecond: has the US firm given you an offer? If not then wait until then, if so and it's too low for you to take then you should counter with what it would take for you to take the job over the Canadian offer. You don't need to give an explanation for your counter number beyond that you have a competing offer.
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Jan 9, 2024 05:08
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asur posted:Femtosecond: has the US firm given you an offer? If not then wait until then, if so and it's too low for you to take then you should counter with what it would take for you to take the job over the Canadian offer. You don't need to give an explanation for your counter number beyond that you have a competing offer. Lockback posted:....all that matters is you as an employee and what the market will bear. Do what research you can to see what kind of market things look like in Austin and get a number that makes sense. Prior to writing that (pretty confusing and rambly in retrospect) block of text this is pretty much what I did. The US firm did venture a number first and I said that I didn't think is was going to be significant enough for me to want to make the move, and so then I offered [number I grabbed from levels.fyi average]. So yeah that was pretty much the best thing I could think of before I started massively over thinking it and loading up hipster craft brewery webpages in each jurisdiction to look at the price of a beer... Ultimately it seems like the Canadian firm now has a bit of an advantage as they're a branch office of a US firm and are able to dangle some USD denominated stock which goes quite a bit further in Canada given the exchange rate. If the US firm dangles the same amount of stock it isn't as significant. That is unless Austin genuinely is that much cheaper than Vancouver, which everyone keeps saying it is but I just don't see it and I feel like I'm being gaslit a bit lol.
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Jan 9, 2024 06:19
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I don't know if it will be a lot less expensive, but I don't think it would be a lot more. Like Austin is sort of expensive if you want to live right in the heart of downtown but even going a little ways out rent drops a ton. There is no state tax in Texas, yeah Beer or food out is a little more expensive but groceries and stuff tend to be less so in my experience in Canada. I mean, don't move if its not worth it, personally I'd probably way rather live in Vancouver than Austin, but I also don't think you're getting bamboozled or anything.
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Jan 9, 2024 15:07
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Austin housing prices also shot up a lot from where they were 5 years ago. So they could be miscalibrating on old rates as well. IME in Austin there's a bipartite distribution of tech employers where some pay well and some are absolutely abysmal. The older the employer the more likely it seems they're under, so it feels like a lot of places haven't recalibrate again recently or are fine chasing the middle/bottom of the market.
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Jan 9, 2024 15:18
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You also need climate calibration for Austin if you haven’t experienced months of 100+ temperatures.
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Jan 9, 2024 15:53
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Chewbecca posted:Goongrats!!! I actually enjoy blended employment with some days in the office for the exact same reason! I'm starting a job soon that's going to be blended like this, and I'm looking forward to it. It's a job downtown (which I've always wanted) and the commute is going to only be 15-20 minutes via train. And my understanding is that in-office days are coordinated so you're in the office together rather than just taking Zoom calls from the office rather than home 2 days a week. A lot of people in SA poo poo on going into the office, because often times it is awful, but there are some of us who would actually prefer it, occasionally. You're not alone!
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Jan 9, 2024 16:37
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