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Microsoft can pretty much kiss my Linux using rear end at this point.
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Jan 7, 2024 17:52
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I think what’s most vexing is that the fundamentals of Windows, the actual useful components that run games and software and the sheer magnitude of legacy support that continues to work in unfussy fashion*, are still sound. But the telemetry and the dark patterns embedded in the OS to steer your attention toward some eye-grabbing component to juice metrics toward some internal team’s goal, to lash all of Microsoft’s divisions together and insist that users need to feed the whole loving company if they want to use Windows, absolutely sucks. Microsoft imagining that value extraction your users actively resent will end somewhere good is as depressing as any number of other stories in late capitalism. That they could easily afford to be less lovely and steer the ship into the skid anyway… god, gently caress ‘em. * My wife’s grandpa has a Windows 95-era family tree maker that’s old and weird to the point that it demands UAC privileges for no reason I can ascertain, and has survived being cloned to a new drive and runs without other incident in Windows 11. So hats off to the OS and compatibility teams still doing yeomen’s work, and gently caress the people making the rest of it worse every year. Hasturtium fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 23:29
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Microsoft is a fantastic case study in regards to what happens when a company simply gets too big and there's no more cohesion between anyone anymore. Like yeah no company is perfect, but it's like THE company I think of in regards of people not talking internally about stuff - hell, I'd bet money on people not knowing a bunch of teams or divisions exist and making decisions that contradict other decisions. But also if you have a keyboard you can program you can just do away with the OS key anyway 
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Jan 7, 2024 23:58
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Reoxygenation posted:Microsoft is a fantastic case study in regards to what happens when a company simply gets too big and there's no more cohesion between anyone anymore. Like yeah no company is perfect, but it's like THE company I think of in regards of people not talking internally about stuff - hell, I'd bet money on people not knowing a bunch of teams or divisions exist and making decisions that contradict other decisions. Time for this classic again: 
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Jan 8, 2024 00:12
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I had to do a double take because I thought that was an xkcd comic I hadn't seen before somehow, but looks to be accurate to this day
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Jan 8, 2024 00:23
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Reoxygenation posted:Microsoft is a fantastic case study in regards to what happens when a company simply gets too big and there's no more cohesion between anyone anymore. Like yeah no company is perfect, but it's like THE company I think of in regards of people not talking internally about stuff - hell, I'd bet money on people not knowing a bunch of teams or divisions exist and making decisions that contradict other decisions. Outside of accidentally whacking the key while playing games - which I mentally adjusted to pretty fast after doing it a few times - I never saw the big deal about the Windows/Command key. It brought keyboard shortcuts up to snuff with Mac OS and various Unix platforms, and was overdue if anything. Replacing the right control key with a CoPilot invoker seems like an unserious move being played to spark controversy and engagement in the tech press as PC sales stagnate. I don’t know if that’s borne of panic that a horrendously expensive thing they’re throwing their weight behind is turning into a bubble they’re trying to will into sustained existence with investor money, or if they’re such Kool-Aid drinking dipshits that they’re convinced Microsoft-hosted AI really will be a permanent part of Windows’ value proposition going forward.
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Jan 8, 2024 00:24
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Hasturtium posted:Outside of accidentally whacking the key while playing games - which I mentally adjusted to pretty fast after doing it a few times - I never saw the big deal about the Windows/Command key. It brought keyboard shortcuts up to snuff with Mac OS and various Unix platforms, and was overdue if anything. I think some of this is MBA-brained execs making plans based on the quarters that happened due to the pandemic, and the meteoric recovery of PC sales during those times. That, and the ongoing pressure both they and Apple feel from Chromebooks, which Google has surprisingly made strong inroads on in various places, especially education. Windows 10s and Windows 10x (later reborn as Windows 11) all speak to responses to these two things, and the MBA-brain stuff is worse because anyone with half a brain could predict that sales would decline and flatten again once the pressure of choked supply chains and a massive surge in demands calmed down.
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Jan 8, 2024 00:34
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Hasn't everything? Mine is the button that brings up the right click context menu and has been for about five different keyboards now. On a desktop kb? I'm surprised they kept context but got rid of Win.
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Jan 8, 2024 02:29
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isndl posted:Are you one of those arrow key movement players? I didn't know there were any still around. I'm set in my ways. Been an arrow key movement player since the original DOOM.
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Jan 8, 2024 04:58
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Hasturtium posted:I think what’s most vexing is that the fundamentals of Windows, the actual useful components that run games and software and the sheer magnitude of legacy support that continues to work in unfussy fashion*, are still sound. But the telemetry and the dark patterns embedded in the OS to steer your attention toward some eye-grabbing component to juice metrics toward some internal team’s goal, to lash all of Microsoft’s divisions together and insist that users need to feed the whole loving company if they want to use Windows, absolutely sucks. Microsoft imagining that value extraction your users actively resent will end somewhere good is as depressing as any number of other stories in late capitalism. That they could easily afford to be less lovely and steer the ship into the skid anyway… god, gently caress ‘em. No kidding. I have software that runs on Win95 that still runs without a hitch on Win11.
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Jan 8, 2024 05:00
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Branch Nvidian posted:If they sold a version of Windows that was basically just Windows 2000 Professional UI, with the current Windows libraries and whatnot so modern programs launch, but with the AI/telemetric poo poo turned off, even at a premium over regular Windows, they would probably sell more licenses than they'd think they would. Ummm if it had the Win2K Pro look and feel but with modern compatibility and QoL upgrades... "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY" time.
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Jan 8, 2024 05:03
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biznatchio posted:I imagine arrow key movement is popular among lefties? I resemble this remark.
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Jan 8, 2024 05:08
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HalloKitty posted:Surely the right windows key would make more sense MY desktop keyboard is from around 2010 or before.
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Jan 8, 2024 09:52
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imperiusdamian posted:No kidding. I have software that runs on Win95 that still runs without a hitch on Win11. and if you need 16 bit or 8 bit you can emulate a 32 bit os that will allow you to run it!
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Jan 8, 2024 10:22
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Celexi posted:and if you need 16 bit or 8 bit you can emulate a 32 bit os that will allow you to run it! Since "XP Mode" no longer exists, this isn't a point of distinction.
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Jan 8, 2024 11:26
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Hasturtium posted:I think what’s most vexing is that the fundamentals of Windows, the actual useful components that run games and software and the sheer magnitude of legacy support that continues to work in unfussy fashion*, are still sound. But the telemetry and the dark patterns embedded in the OS to steer your attention toward some eye-grabbing component to juice metrics toward some internal team’s goal, to lash all of Microsoft’s divisions together and insist that users need to feed the whole loving company if they want to use Windows, absolutely sucks. This is extremely accurate and absolutely the thing that made me do seinfeld leaving dot gif. There were some fundamentals in 11 that I disliked in comparison with 10 (start menu and other UI choices). I probably would have gotten used to them. But I was just so drat tired of the incessant attempts to make me use a MS account, or Edge, or OneDrive, or the MS store. Or Photos grabbing my file associations from xnview yet again. All that poo poo has only gotten worse over the years, and 11 now pretends some of them are mandatory. Now add copilot to the pile. I am so goddamn happy to be away from all that.
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Jan 8, 2024 18:17
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Klyith posted:This is extremely accurate and absolutely the thing that made me do seinfeld leaving dot gif. It really sucks: for all the poo poo I’ve given Microsoft over the years their core competencies made Windows an unglamorous workhorse, and at various points - Windows 2000, post-service pack 2 Windows XP after taking a weed trimmer to its grotty bits, and Windows 7 in particular - I could hold my nose through some of their trend chasing and be genuinely happy with the resulting experience. I recently picked up an off/lease HP Z440 workstation for dirt cheap - 12 core Broadwell Xeon, 32GB RAM, TPM 2.0, and storage too, for under $200 - and am genuinely wondering whether it would be worth the trouble to deal with Windows 11 quailing at me that my CPU is unsupported (despite the fact that the alleged blocking issues, Core Isolation and Memory Integrity, can be turned off) or to just Hackintosh the thing. Microsoft being perfectly happy consigning 200 million PCs to the landfill so Number Go Up may not be Exxon-evil, but if they wanted to push platform veterans to Linux and macOS, they’re succeeding.
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Jan 8, 2024 19:37
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All of the poo poo with trying to force the MS account, push Office 365 and other premium add-ons, and bundle in a bunch of ancillary third-party apps is pretty inexcusable, especially since there are still a lot of advanced configuration interfaces (Device Manager, Disk Management, enterprise WPA, etc.) which are using the old Windows 7-style UI and haven't had their features brought forward into the new Settings UI yet even though they're more work to access than they were before. I don't like the Windows 11 CPU "requirements" either, but I will say that if you use Rufus to bypass the install restrictions then so far it seems completely trouble free. I have a Broadwell tablet and a Zen+ HTPC running 11 and both work just as well as they did on 10. It makes me wonder if the rumored Windows 12 will relax restrictions somewhat, because otherwise Microsoft is going to be looking at a lot of machines which are still live at 10's EoL date and unable to upgrade. Feels somewhat reminiscent of the Vista launch.
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Jan 8, 2024 22:24
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The longer it takes MS to ''''''upgrade''''' their old advanced UI stuff to the Settings modern UWP-style crap, the better. Settings is loving godawful at literally everything it's supposed to do. I *cannot* believe they went forward with it at the time, but looking at the trajectory of the OS, it's not their biggest offense by far.
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Jan 8, 2024 22:35
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I would have preferred if they left things alone for the most part, but the incompleteness and inconsistency is what frustrates me most. The situation may have improved but at one point I was stuck using the "Set up a new connection" wizard to configure EAP authentication, and if I made a mistake there was no clear way to change just one setting - only to delete the whole thing and recreate it from scratch.
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Jan 8, 2024 23:07
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That it has taken 11 years so far to go from Control Panel to Settings and it's still not finished is pitiful. There just seems to be no will at Microsoft to make a cohesive experience across the OS at all. Don't they dog food this?
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Jan 9, 2024 01:14
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By the time Microsoft is finished rolling the remaining things into the Settings app they will have moved on to their next UI paradigm and it'll just start all over.
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Jan 9, 2024 01:41
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fashion is cyclical so we'll be bringing back configuration wizards next
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Jan 9, 2024 01:45
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Branch Nvidian posted:By the time Microsoft is finished rolling the remaining things into the Settings app they will have moved on to their next UI paradigm and it'll just start all over. windows but with 360 blades
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Jan 9, 2024 01:48
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Apple tries to push other products on you as well, they're just slightly less obnoxious about it.
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Jan 9, 2024 03:21
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TOOT BOOT posted:Apple tries to push other products on you as well, they're just slightly less obnoxious about it. It’s not good when they do it, but Apple will shut up if you say no, at least for a while. They are also relatively up front: you might see an offer for Apple Music if you start the app, but that is at least a rather relevant time to show such a thing. It’s not like Microsoft plopping random ads for itself into your system notifications, or an ad for CoPilot showing up in a Google search on an iPhone, or a mandatory half-year update reinstalling things you manually removed and proudly announcing that they’re EVEN BETTER if you pay Microsoft to unlock their full potential.
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Jan 9, 2024 03:36
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TOOT BOOT posted:Apple tries to push other products on you as well, they're just slightly less obnoxious about it. Microsoft does this by spamming you with annoying popups and stupid dark patterns. Apple does this by just crippling everything else for made up reasons. It's not in your face, but it's also arguably worse. Which one is worse I guess is up to you, but I'm still giving MS the win here since you can turn their poo poo off. There is nothing you can do to make Apple's poo poo work well outside of their little garden.
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Jan 9, 2024 03:57
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WattsvilleBlues posted:That it has taken 11 years so far to go from Control Panel to Settings and it's still not finished is pitiful. There just seems to be no will at Microsoft to make a cohesive experience across the OS at all. Don't they dog food this? If the goal was to make it look and feel like dog food, they achieved that (I know what dogfooding is)
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Jan 9, 2024 08:02
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I still think the only place Windows 11 shines is on a touchscreen. I got a new gaming laptop over Black Friday, and of course it's running Windows 11, and it's meh on that machine. On my touchscreen laptop it actually is marginally better than 10 would be, I'd say. Mostly because of how much 11 rips off the ChromeOS interface.
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Jan 9, 2024 08:08
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I still think the only place Windows 11 shines is on a touchscreen. I got a new gaming laptop over Black Friday, and of course it's running Windows 11, and it's meh on that machine. On my touchscreen laptop it actually is marginally better than 10 would be, I'd say. Mostly because of how much 11 rips off the ChromeOS interface. I never used 8 with a touchscreen, but I was led to believe 8 was the best touch windows, and after that they stripped the touchiness back a bit
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Jan 9, 2024 08:39
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Eletriarnation posted:I would have preferred if they left things alone for the most part, but the incompleteness and inconsistency is what frustrates me most. Yeah, if they actually stuck to their guns and went all the way with a UI or paradigm change, legacy be damned, at least I could respect them. The hodgepodge is worse. I might be a minority or silent majority here though in that I actually like a lot of the changes (or at least the inferred spirit of the changes) they have tried recently.
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Jan 9, 2024 15:21
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HalloKitty posted:I never used 8 with a touchscreen, but I was led to believe 8 was the best touch windows, and after that they stripped the touchiness back a bit I definitely preferred Windows 8 with my Surface 2 compared to W10.
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Jan 9, 2024 15:49
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Serotoning posted:Yeah, if they actually stuck to their guns and went all the way with a UI or paradigm change, legacy be damned, at least I could respect them. The hodgepodge is worse. I might be a minority or silent majority here though in that I actually like a lot of the changes (or at least the inferred spirit of the changes) they have tried recently. What’s ostensibly being replaced is a patchwork: inconsistent design language, bad scaling to high DPI displays, weird unspoken restrictions you’ll inevitably butt up against. Unfortunately the Settings app is inconsistent in its own ways and relatively less information-dense. Why the hell they haven’t replaced the Windows 2000-era Disk Management tool, Device Manager, or Registry Editor - the latter two of which made their debuts in Windows 95, and which have grown in functionality without their GUI changing to any meaningful extent - is baffling. If they poured the effort they’ve misspent on bullshit into Windows as a sustainable modern concern, I don’t think they’d struggle so valiantly to look sexy versus macOS. But maybe an earlier poster was right: they’re so ponderously massive that throwing more people and resources at the Control Panel Problem could just be hiring more pregnant women to get a baby faster…
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Jan 9, 2024 16:25
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quote:Why the hell they haven’t replaced the Windows 2000-era Disk Management tool, Device Manager, or Registry Editor - the latter two of which made their debuts in Windows 95, and which have grown in functionality without their GUI changing to any meaningful extent - is baffling. Most likely its because the average user doesn't interact with them at all so it doesn't have to look good. Just like how the ODBC connector tool gets paraded out weekly on reddit for looking like win95, only 3 people use it so why bother spending time updating it when you can add a coat of paint onto the common settings
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Jan 9, 2024 17:29
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Kibner posted:I definitely preferred Windows 8 with my Surface 2 compared to W10. The Win8 UI made sense for touch devices. Unfortunately they went all-in with no thought for everything else, so like the first thing I saw after installing W8 on my desktop PC was a full-screen calculator app lol. It was an absolutely baffling choice, like how could they possibly think that running a calculator in full screen made sense on a 27" desktop monitor. I think with 8.1 they had something possibly going in the right direction by letting you switch between desktop and touch UI modes but then that got abandoned as well and almost everything rolled back so now tablet experience is "desktop, but thicker window borders?". The latest update seems to collapse the taskbar in tablet mode by default now, so there's only a very thin line left and you have to swipe up to show it. I guess that's fine since you can use gestures to switch windows, open the start menu or settings etc.
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Jan 9, 2024 17:34
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mobby_6kl posted:The Win8 UI made sense for touch devices. Unfortunately they went all-in with no thought for everything else, so like the first thing I saw after installing W8 on my desktop PC was a full-screen calculator app lol. I think Microsoft believed everything was going to shift to touch-screen only/death of the desktop. So they stupidly went all in only for the market to push back way more than anticipated, which then resulted in 8.1.
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Jan 9, 2024 17:44
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Hasturtium posted:Why the hell they haven’t replaced the Windows 2000-era Disk Management tool, Device Manager, or Registry Editor - the latter two of which made their debuts in Windows 95, and which have grown in functionality without their GUI changing to any meaningful extent - is baffling. Please, no. These are fine. I'd like a lot of UI changes rolled back to that era tbh
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Jan 9, 2024 18:07
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mobby_6kl posted:The Win8 UI made sense for touch devices. Unfortunately they went all-in with no thought for everything else, so like the first thing I saw after installing W8 on my desktop PC was a full-screen calculator app lol. Yup, I agree. They should have kept the touch-specific UI as is and just made it not the default desktop UI. They probably saw that kind of segmentation too expensive to maintain, though.
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Jan 9, 2024 18:25
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down1nit posted:Popping in to say to you goons fed up with the recommendations for dism, that there is in fact *one weird trick* that fixes a LOT of issues on trashed windows deployments. This wiped out a custom proxy script on my work machine and I spent a day tracing it down.
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Jan 9, 2024 18:44
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GI Joe jobs posted:This wiped out a custom proxy script on my work machine and I spent a day tracing it down. Sure, but did it fix Windows?
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Jan 9, 2024 18:52
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