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Kirios posted:That’s a little revisionist history - the Texans WR core was seen as bad if not worse than the Panthers’ going into the year. No one even knew who Nico Collins really was. Ding ding. The Stroud / Dell connection is legit heartwarming.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:02
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I thought Stroud would get ripped apart behind the Oline but his WRs were fine. Tank Dell definitely performed above expectations but Nico Collins was a pretty known WR in college with him and Donovan Peoples-Jones. He was a highish recruit iirc and definitely showed NFL talent.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:02
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Kirios posted:That’s a little revisionist history - the Texans WR core was seen as bad if not worse than the Panthers’ going into the year. No one even knew who Nico Collins really was. I mean they weren’t setting him up to fail. All high pick QBs are set up to fail because they go to teams that are you know bad. Also it isn’t revisionist because I’m not saying we knew the Texans were going to be good offensively, but they were and we can see why because the season is over
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Jan 10, 2024 01:02
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Does anyone think the Panthers drafted Bryce #1 overall to be the next Goff or Geno?
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Jan 10, 2024 01:03
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I mean it doesn’t matter what you intended unless you got a time machine
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Jan 10, 2024 01:04
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Kirios posted:That’s a little revisionist history - the Texans WR core was seen as bad if not worse than the Panthers’ going into the year. No one even knew who Nico Collins really was. Seriously, this. Terrace Marshall is a massive disappointment, and still had more receiving yards than Collins last year.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:06
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I don’t think you know what revisionist means. No one is saying he was guarenteed to succeed and everyone knew it
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Jan 10, 2024 01:07
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Master Stur posted:I never said coaching doesn't matter though. Reich's old rear end busted scheme got production out of an ancient Rivers and Dalton - the only QB who performed terribly under him is Bryce. Reich had a season with Matt Ryan in there that was so bad it got him fired halfway through it. Dalton and Rivers are both veterans, and in the case of Rivers he was a top tier player for a long time. Even Dalton hung around as one of those guys who was basically the dividing line between starting and not. Trying to run the same offense with your rookie QB that you would with Phillip Rivers is part of why people thought Reich was a moron. Rookies don’t come in NFL ready and smart offensive coaches know how to make their lives easier.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:09
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Doltos posted:I added Kirk's first 3 seasons together but fine, let's throw out Kirk. I didn't sit down and watch every single Bryce Young game but I think it's perfectly fine to look at a guy delivering NFL throws and saying hey, that guy can deliver NFL throws. The stats are similar and also bolster the original point that there's more than 5 QBs that had bad seasons to start off and are now starters. You're trying to argue for these bad seasons like they're somehow good which is just mind boggling. I think you just want to win an argument. I'm pointing out that he's the worst of this group you're comparing him to, and that a lot of the "bad seasons" when you look at rookie QBs across the board are less terrible and more inconsistent (which is what you'd expect from a rookie). Lmao that last bit is rich coming from you. In general my stance is QB development is incredibly complicated but Bryce had a garbage year and his closest statistical comps are Goff and Geno but Bryce also comes with deep concerns that he'll even hold up in the NFL unlike those other two. pasaluki posted:Incidentally, one of the greatest tragedies of this season is Anthony Richardson not being able to get through a full season to see what he had in him, while this little Ken doll makes it through the whole season playing like crap. With both Howell and Young it's like you give them credit for being tough enough to get the poo poo sacked out of them not but not for actual NFL quarterback play. Richardson got dinged up constantly in college too, don't expect to see many healthy seasons out of him. YOLOsubmarine posted:There’s certainly some truth to that but by the same token those highly drafted QBs are going to the worst teams in the league which makes it much harder to succeed. I doubt Lamar would have done as well if he’d been taken by the Bears. Brock Purdy has certainly benefitted from landing in an amazing situation and having low expectations. Jordan Love got to sit for 3 years and has certainly benefitted from an organization that has been pretty good for like 40 years now. Yea that's one of the fascinating things about QB development, they're so dependent on everything else happening but then sometimes they're monsters even when the surroundings are poo poo (see Marino or Stroud's situation coming into the year). Remember when the general wisdom was sit your QB for as much of the rookie year as you can afford? Then they put in a rookie cap and now you're better off making them get their lumps in the hope that you can get that sweet stretch of rookie QB deal and super bowl roster. Relentlessboredomm fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jan 10, 2024 |
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Jan 10, 2024 01:10
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Relentlessboredomm posted:I'm pointing out that he's the worst of this group you're comparing him to, and that a lot of the "bad seasons" when you look at rookie QBs across the board are less terrible and more inconsistent (which is what you'd expect from a rookie). Lmao that last bit is very pot calling the kettle black my dude. In general my stance is QB development is incredibly complicated but Bryce had a garbage year and his closest statistical comps are Goff and Geno but Bryce also comes with deep concerns that he'll even hold up in the NFL unlike those other two. Man you were trying to tell me that because Stafford threw 5 tds against a 1-8 Cleveland team that his season was less terrible. I think my analysis is correct.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:13
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Reich had a season with Matt Ryan in there that was so bad it got him fired halfway through it. Dalton and Rivers are both veterans, and in the case of Rivers he was a top tier player for a long time. Even Dalton hung around as one of those guys who was basically the dividing line between starting and not. Trying to run the same offense with your rookie QB that you would with Phillip Rivers is part of why people thought Reich was a moron. Rookies don’t come in NFL ready and smart offensive coaches know how to make their lives easier. Agreed, but we don't really have a good defense for Bryce still performing badly even after the playbook was "streamlined" or simplified or altered or when a new coach came in. I'm not here to defend Reich I think BlindSite made excellent posts about his failings. I just think it took two people to make the output on field as bad as it was.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:14
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Doltos posted:Man you were trying to tell me that because Stafford threw 5 tds against a 1-8 Cleveland team that his season was less terrible. I think my analysis is correct. Yea it was less terrible bc he performed better than Bryce and showed some clear flashes. Master Stur posted:Agreed, but we don't really have a good defense for Bryce still performing badly even after the playbook was "streamlined" or simplified or altered or when a new coach came in. I'm not here to defend Reich I think BlindSite made excellent posts about his failings. I just think it took two people to make the output on field as bad as it was. I will once again point out that someone else started a game for the Panthers this year and looked SIGNIFICANTLY better than Bryce so it's not like there's zero evidence that Bryce was part of the problem
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Jan 10, 2024 01:15
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I think a lot of people overestimated how bad the Texans roster was. They were badly coached but the roster was decent if lacking top end talent. Stroud has elevated them but he’s not single-handedly dragging a bunch of losers to relevance.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:17
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Master Stur posted:Agreed, but we don't really have a good defense for Bryce still performing badly even after the playbook was "streamlined" or simplified or altered or when a new coach came in. I'm not here to defend Reich I think BlindSite made excellent posts about his failings. I just think it took two people to make the output on field as bad as it was. I think I’ve been pretty clear that Bryce was bad on his own merits and I expect he won’t get much better with time. But I also don’t put a lot of stock in the “streamlined” playbook stuff. I think the Panthers spent the latter half of the year rearranging deck chairs to stay busy. I think Reich and Young were a terrible match and they both made the other look worse than they are, but they also failed plenty on their own merits.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:21
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:Does anyone think the Panthers drafted Bryce #1 overall to be the next Goff or Geno? I think anyone would be thrilled to draft league median QBs that peak six or seven seasons in on entirely different teams.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:21
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YOLOsubmarine posted:I think a lot of people overestimated how bad the Texans roster was. They were badly coached but the roster was decent if lacking top end talent. Stroud has elevated them but he’s not single-handedly dragging a bunch of losers to relevance. Couldn't you say this about the Panthers too? I mean the defense isn't great but they're playing pretty well. The offense is where there's a huge lack of talent but even then if you had like 1 real receiver and a power blocking scheme it wouldn't look so bad.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:24
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Yea it was less terrible bc he performed better than Bryce and showed some clear flashes. He threw twice the amount of interceptions in 150 less attempts and only completed 53% of his passes for 2.2k yards and an average of 6, which is .5 above Bryce.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:24
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Relentlessboredomm posted:
Yeah that's a thing I've been hung up on myself. Dalton threw for over 300yds and 2tds that one game he played and even matched Bryce's longest pass on the year at 47ish yards. Excluding the GB game, Bryce played just as bad or worse statistically after firing Reich. We can point out all the ways in which Reich's scheme was bad but there's not much there to support that Bryce's main struggles were schematic. YOLOsubmarine posted:I think I’ve been pretty clear that Bryce was bad on his own merits and I expect he won’t get much better with time. But I also don’t put a lot of stock in the “streamlined” playbook stuff. I think the Panthers spent the latter half of the year rearranging deck chairs to stay busy. Yeah that's a fair take IMO. I would still fall into the camp of "move on" from Bryce but regardless of that I think we're essentially saying similar things here lately.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:27
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Dalton threw 58 times in that game for a 58% completion rating and produced a Y/A of 6.2 which according to this thread is bad.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:29
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YOLOsubmarine posted:But the Panthers made their bed and they’ve really got no better option than to lie in it for another year. I don’t think it’ll get better, but I don’t think wasting a pick on a long shot QB this year is going to make them any better either and they’ve got a lot of other holes to fill. 100% agree with this. it seems way more likely to hit on a good WR and a good guard with the picks and try to unfuck Ickey and see how Bryce goes than finding the pot of gold that is the good late-round QB. if he sucks, cool, you get a high pick to replace him in 2025; if he takes strides and develops, great. if he's pedestrian, well, you weren't going to win poo poo soon anyway, keep building the roster or whatever
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Jan 10, 2024 01:34
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Doltos posted:He threw twice the amount of interceptions in 150 less attempts and only completed 53% of his passes for 2.2k yards and an average of 6, which is .5 above Bryce. And how many less fumbles did he have and how many more TDs while playing 6 less games? I mean at this point you're clearly valuing completion percentage and INTs over everything else including fumbles which I mean you do you but I don't. Maybe Y/A, Y/C, and TDs aren't useful either but lots of rookies turn the ball over a poo poo ton (Peyton with that insane INT number), not a lot of rookies can actually score as well or consistently push the ball. Master Stur posted:Yeah that's a thing I've been hung up on myself. Dalton threw for over 300yds and 2tds that one game he played and even matched Bryce's longest pass on the year at 47ish yards. Excluding the GB game, Bryce played just as bad or worse statistically after firing Reich. We can point out all the ways in which Reich's scheme was bad but there's not much there to support that Bryce's main struggles were schematic. Doltos posted:Dalton threw 58 times in that game for a 58% completion rating and produced a Y/A of 6.2 which according to this thread is bad. No one said he was good, just better than Bryce and a good counterpoint that Bryce wasn't in some way part of the problem.
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Jan 10, 2024 02:10
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I for one am shocked a 13 year QB played well against the 28th ranked defense by DVOA.
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Jan 10, 2024 03:45
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The real question we have to ask is why does anyone care about INTs? All it is is a turnover that gives the other team possession. Much less important than *checks notes* yards per attempt.
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Jan 10, 2024 04:29
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Correct QB metrics in order. 1. Wins 2. Hand size 3. Conference 4. Does he hold the door for his teammates? 5. Niche marketability
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Jan 10, 2024 04:33
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Actually I didn't look at Bryce's fumble count that's ridiculously high and a major concern so I'll concede that point
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Jan 10, 2024 04:38
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Forrest on Fire posted:Correct QB metrics in order. 1A. Got that dawg in him
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Jan 10, 2024 04:42
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Forrest on Fire posted:Correct QB metrics in order. 1 - refs in his pocket
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Jan 10, 2024 04:43
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https://twitter.com/2growls1roar/status/1744882841068908917?t=tx8TORT_F0vtSzpRHdkjoQ&s=19
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Jan 10, 2024 04:44
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Harlock posted:I for one am shocked a 13 year QB played well against the 28th ranked defense by DVOA. People also ignore that there was a 60 yard bomb that Chark popped that game that was on pretty badly thrown ball but either way. This weekend the Panthers bombed a touchdown because DJ Chark didn't just lower his shoulder and another because terrace Marshall didn't take a step forward lining up. The next play a defensive end had a free rush and forced a fumble. Again receivers and offensive line wiped away 14 points Bryce had engineered or helped engineer. Our kicker also missed a gimme. 17 point swing through no actual fault of Youngs. The defense cost us the green bay game. Because despite the garbage time protestations the last two touchdown drives levelled the scores. I have a longer post I'll make tonight but there is some revisionist history going on already ITT.
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Jan 10, 2024 04:53
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BlindSite posted:People also ignore that there was a 60 yard bomb that Chark popped that game that was on pretty badly thrown ball but either way. hmmmm
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Jan 10, 2024 06:40
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personally i think if a quarterback drops the ball on the ground when he gets hit, its maybe a little bit of his fault
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Jan 10, 2024 06:40
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Alaois posted:personally i think if a quarterback drops the ball on the ground when he gets hit, its maybe a little bit of his fault Not if he’s a tiny man, that’s the Maker’s
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Jan 10, 2024 06:57
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Question for the thread: if Bryce had been a third day pick this year, would you still be on board on giving him more time, or are you scouring the landscape for someone, anyone else to come in and be QB1 in '24? If you think that the majority of issues were with the coaching/team around Bryce and he can only go up, then fine, keep him. But this assumes that: -Bryce is capable of improving -The team is capable of hiring a capable HC and staff to put together an offense that is suited to his strengths, of what there are I'm not certain. -The team is capable of finding the players around Bryce to put him in a place to succeed. -All of this occurs in the next two seasons, before the 5th year option is due. If you don't believe in all four of those, then the best play is to either trade Bryce for literally anything and get his salary off of your books, or cut him post 6/1 and take the salary cap hit across the next two seasons, when we're all expecting the team to be garbage regardless of who's QB. If Bryce was pick #200, we'd be talking about who the Panthers could either pick Day 2 or who they could sign in FA, because there'd be no conceivable idea that he'd be back and starting in '24. But because he was taken #1, not to mention significant assets were given up to take him #1, he gets to stay due to #1 prestige/salary cap concerns/ego/sunk cost fallacy.
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Jan 10, 2024 06:57
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Alaois posted:personally i think if a quarterback drops the ball on the ground when he gets hit, its maybe a little bit of his fault I think you misread what you tried critiquing
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Jan 10, 2024 07:11
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C. Everett Koop posted:Question for the thread: if Bryce had been a third day pick this year, would you still be on board on giving him more time, or are you scouring the landscape for someone, anyone else to come in and be QB1 in '24? If Bryce is a third day pick then I assume the Panthers are drafting Caleb, Maye, or Daniels with the first pick because they didn't trade it for him
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Jan 10, 2024 07:18
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kalensc posted:I think you misread what you tried critiquing Missing the point is kinda tff. Txt
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Jan 10, 2024 07:41
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IcePhoenix posted:If Bryce is a third day pick then I assume the Panthers are drafting Caleb, Maye, or Daniels with the first pick because they didn't trade it for him then again Andy probably started most games and they might not be picking there
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Jan 10, 2024 08:00
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I think if Bryce were anything but a high first round pick every mock draft would have QB as their top need. Isn't continuing to play him knowing that the textbook definition of sunk cost fallacy?
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Jan 10, 2024 08:20
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Bryce Young was sacked 62 times this season, the next closest of the recent QBs who started their rookie year: Murray - 48 Wilson - 44 Geno -45 Luck - 41 Jones - 38 Stroud - 38 One of the common things said about all of these guys after their seasons was that their play would improve if they had better protection. Bryce young was sacked more than all of them, by a large margin. The documented plan for Bryce was to have him sit for at least the first half of the season so he could learn to operate Reich's offense involving speed and static routes operating from under center, mostly out of the same personnel package. They also wanted him to switch to using a wristband and call the plays off that in the huddle, all of these are things he hadn't done in his time at Alabama. Reich reportedly was disinterested in the input from Brown and others in the building who felt that installing a more familiar offense would be more effective. Tepper got angry and demanded Bryce start and so away it went. I should also mention here that as has been brought up the decision was also made to install a zone blocking scheme - despite every single draft pick, free agent signing and the success of the team previously, having been based on a power gap scheme. So if you're keeping score you have the worst supporting cast in the NFL, a blocking scheme that none of the personnel fit into, and the steepest possible learning curve. in an effort to jump start things they decided to change to Thomas Brown calling plays in week 3. Change back to Reich by week 7 and completely change again in game plan, responsibility, scheme and concept by week 12. That's a change to scheme and call - on average, every 3 weeks. With the arguable exception of Lawrence, there hasn't been a QB in modern NFL history to have that much upheaval in the coaching staff. After 2 first round picks and a gun wide receiver was traded for him - maybe put a head coach and offensive staff in place who will recognize what scheme he's familiar and effective in, put a little more emphasis on a blocking scheme the team can run and maybe try and have a couple other weapons in the supporting cast and see if things improve? He had a comparable year to guys who saw dramatic improvement in their 2nd and 3rd years with a far worse coaching, protection and supporting cast. A sunk cost fallacy is only fallacious when the situation surrounding the investment is unlikely to change. At this point its almost hard to fathom a worse situation to put a rookie QB into, because even his peers draft/production wise were significantly better supported, coached (well not Lawrence) and protected. The other point is, that a sunk cost fallacy involves the continued investment of resources. They've already spent all they're going to spend on Bryce Young. At this point your investment is for the team because a competent coaching staff, effective supporting cast and an offensive line that actually protects is going to improve the liklihood of success for any QB they have in the building. So you're spending what? Some dickhead billionaires cash that he'd be spending anyway if they cut him. Oh no, we miss out on the chance to draft a player that has a 33% chance of starting one full season. The Horror at what it costs to try and salvage your first overall pick!
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Jan 10, 2024 09:03
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BlindSite posted:maybe put a head coach and offensive staff in place who will recognize what scheme he's familiar and effective in Honestly a bit surprising that I haven't see the Panthers listing BoB as one of the coaches they're interviewing.
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Jan 10, 2024 09:11
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