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Synesthesian Fetish posted:When you read HoxPox did you feel that all of Moira's lives before life 10 was "Kay. Aiight. That sure was pages I read."? While I agree (I was fine with it) I can see why someone can feel 'this could have been an email' about a lot of this. With today's issue, for example The info they got is that they can't stop Enigma from existing by stabbing stasis/the others before they make their attempt. This is good to know, but you could get that information across in a couple of pages without having substantial setup for a timeline that ultimately doesn't matter. To be honest that entire chunk of the story feels like a pacing thing for me. They can't get onto the later issues of RoX because it'd get ahead of fall of x, so they let it flesh out a bit more side content in the meantime. Not a bad editorial decision, but in a standalone book I don't know they would have spent this much time on something that ultimately doesn't matter.
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Jan 10, 2024 19:42
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I've read enough work by Gillen to be confident that if he has a character clearly state their objective in the first issue of something, that is absolutely not what is going to happen in the conclusion.
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Jan 10, 2024 20:54
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I've read enough fiction to be confident that the plot of this book is not going to be "the X-Men kill a twelve-year-old girl."
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Jan 10, 2024 21:43
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Wanderer posted:I've read enough work by Gillen to be confident that if he has a character clearly state their objective in the first issue of something, that is absolutely not what is going to happen in the conclusion. this was my exact thought when i hit that stinger lol
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Jan 10, 2024 21:47
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This book ruled! Art was great! It felt like a true successor to HOXPOX. I think killing teen Moira would drastically affect Sinister/Enigma and that's the goal. It doesn't end the threat of Enigma's Dominion but it would certainly change it. Especially for Diamond Sinister, who was only able to contribute his portion of the pieces through it. Also, I know this is wrong because a Sinister [Insert Scary Thing] is always going to be worse than the Scary Thing but... HOXPOX talks about Dominions- plural- already existing. Enigma isn't the only one. Xavier's plan seems to be entirely focused on stopping him from becoming something that already exists. I do like how Gillen has tied Enigma back to Hickman's original Dominion concept- even if he's still playing a little loose with it. But I never got the feeling from HOXPOX that Dominions were bad guys or whatever. They're just the end point for the machines. The machines were the problem, not something that would show up and be like "yup, you machines have taken over so now here we are." If the machines don't get to that point, you... don't have to worry about Dominion. If they do, you were probably hosed anyway.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:32
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I don't think killing Moira before she gets her powers will change anything. Engima already exists, and is now outside of time, so it will continue to exist no matter what happens to the timeline.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:05
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Good point. Even the timeline indicates this is probably the case.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:26
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Wow I hated Wolverine - Sabretooth War. Reminded me of New 52 Batman that I dropped and never went back to.
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Jan 11, 2024 03:33
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PSA regarding RoTPoX (oh my god, it's my first time typing it, are we seriously going to call this era Fothox and Rotpox?): https://twitter.com/kierongillen/status/1745193911264432577 Sometimes they put a single data page at the end, but two of them in a row did seem a little odd.
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Jan 11, 2024 04:19
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The concept of a Worldmind as it relates to Domnions and the machine intelligence hierarchy is distinct from say, the Xandarian Worldmind, right? Because I have to imagine that thing would've given Dick Ryder some forewarning about the Annhilation Wave if it existed outside of time otherwise Actually between this and Annihilation from X-Men Red someone needs to buy the X-Office a thesaurus
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Jan 11, 2024 05:12
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The worldmind itself isn't outside of space and time, for the machines' purposes it's just a big lure for the dominion so they can bargain with it and upload themselves. Presumably the Xandarian worldmind could also be used for that. You could say it's either just not set up in a way dominions care about or that dominions don't want to mess with the Nova Force, even if it's not directly listed as something they fear.
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Jan 11, 2024 05:38
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Bill Brasky posted:Wow I hated Wolverine - Sabretooth War. Reminded me of New 52 Batman that I dropped and never went back to. Same here. I dropped Wolverine a while back and thought I'd see what Sabretooth War was about, but I won't be reading any further. I'm all for a gritty, violent Wolverine story, but this was a textbook case of what people mean when they call something "grimdark". That last page....oof.
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Jan 11, 2024 05:47
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Wolverine sucked a lot. Pointless and gruesome death scenes for no reason. So who do we think the other two members are of the Xavier crew? I'd guess Rachel and then either Sinister or Manifold.
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Jan 11, 2024 05:56
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Codependent Poster posted:Wolverine sucked a lot. Pointless and gruesome death scenes for no reason. It absolutely can't be Sinister unless it's Sinister still in his mind. Like, I know Gillen likes writing Sinister but he's gone beyond the pale for Xavier to trust him again in books Gillen has written.
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Jan 11, 2024 05:58
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nemesis_hub posted:Same here. I dropped Wolverine a while back and thought I'd see what Sabretooth War was about, but I won't be reading any further. I'm all for a gritty, violent Wolverine story, but this was a textbook case of what people mean when they call something "grimdark". That last page....oof. Holy poo poo. That was awful. In every sense. Lower B movie fare. I felt like I was in a time warp back to loving 1996. I'm honestly surprised they didn't have someone go "Gee willikers, I retire in 2 weeks! Can't wait to go home meet my loving fiancé and take that dream vacation! Boy I sure like not being a pile of gore!". Also, wasn't Logan with Colossus working on getting Cyclops out when the plan was changed by Xavier as the 'present' day? Seems he can be in two places at once.
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Jan 11, 2024 07:32
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Sephyr posted:Holy poo poo. That was awful. In every sense. Lower B movie fare. He's the best there is at what he does. And what he does is guest star in half the comics produced by marvel regardless of whether or not that violates space-time.
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Jan 11, 2024 07:38
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this'd be too much even if the five were available.
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Jan 11, 2024 07:41
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Sephyr posted:Also, wasn't Logan with Colossus working on getting Cyclops out when the plan was changed by Xavier as the 'present' day? Seems he can be in two places at once. there's literally a big banner at the start of the issue that says "THIS TAKES PLACE BEFORE RISE OF POWERS"
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Jan 11, 2024 08:50
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Wanderer posted:I've read enough work by Gillen to be confident that if he has a character clearly state their objective in the first issue of something, that is absolutely not what is going to happen in the conclusion. If nothing else, while it's just barely possible that the resolution will be 'None of the last few years of comics ever happened', killing Moira as a kid would rewrite decades of continuity. I doubt they're going to rewrite everything going back to the early Claremont era.
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Jan 11, 2024 09:05
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Abroham Lincoln posted:It's just comic writer brainworms tbh To be honest on rereading House of X that's exactly what the Orchis mission felt like to me. The reader hasn't been introduced to resurrection yet but Xavier's reaction seemed like an overreaction.
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Jan 11, 2024 09:14
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MonsterEnvy posted:I don't think killing Moira before she gets her powers will change anything. Engima already exists, and is now outside of time, so it will continue to exist no matter what happens to the timeline. Synesthesian Fetish posted:When you read HoxPox did you feel that all of Moira's lives before life 10 was "Kay. Aiight. That sure was pages I read."?
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Jan 11, 2024 15:26
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it didn't really matter that mother righteous was the one that actually succeeded first, because it would result in enigma's apotheosis regardless. the rest of them only failed because enigma was already a dominion. however, every single one of their plans derived from the existence of krakoa. orbus used mysterium, which did not exist before krakoans created it. and now we find that stasis used orchis' machine intelligences, which were only empowered/created in response to krakoa. it's possible that even if they managed to stave off righteous via time travel or whatnot that would only make one of the other attempts in another timeline succeed instead. what's really confusing is how all of this is happening in 616 rather than creating alternate universes.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:15
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Keep in mind that, besides Mother Righteous, each Sinister only "succeeds" in their Dominion attempt in a branched timeline that only exists as a result of the Moira Engine. Without these mutually exclusive timelines, they can't feed into Enigma, which means Enigma can't achieve Dominion. Taking Moira's powers out of the equation by removing her before those powers ever develop disrupts the whole mechanism. Krakoa as a nation never coming to be is just an unfortunate consequence of that. Will it work? Probably not, but Xavier and crew don't know that yet. Hell, we only know it because we know Marvel won't reset it's entire continuity. Also, I don't think anything we've seen so far confirms other Dominions don't exist. The Sinisters failing their ascension is a result of Enigma's direct interference, which it only does to preserve it's origin. We see in this comic that Nimrod and crew successfully drew the attention of another Dominion, at least up to the point of Stasis overwriting it in his ascension attempt. I'd assume this is the same Dominion that appeared in Moira's 9th life. We also have the mysterious Trickster Dominion that sent Omega Sentinel back in time, which I'm really curious about.
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Jan 11, 2024 17:16
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Other Dominions absolutely exist per HOXPOX, which is why I asked if Xavier's attempt at stopping Enigma has any point to the reader outside of Enigma's connection to Sinister. Of course, Xavier doesn't know about other Dominions so it makes sense in his head. But we know different. Is it good to know our protagonists are doing something pointless?
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Jan 11, 2024 17:25
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danbanana posted:Other Dominions absolutely exist per HOXPOX, which is why I asked if Xavier's attempt at stopping Enigma has any point to the reader outside of Enigma's connection to Sinister. I think the threat of other, existing Dominions is more nebulous. They seem depicted like Elder Gods in horror genres, vast and terrifying, but unaware or apathetic about Earth until some foolish mortal summons them. Enigma is a more pressing threat because it originated from Earth, and is manipulating Earth's timeline to ensure it's own creation. Plus, the guy it used to be was a real piece of poo poo, and achieving godhood probably hasn't changed that.
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Jan 11, 2024 17:32
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that's why the last issue of immortal was so good. for the first and only time it discussed what a dominion can and can't do and what it would want. but now in rise i don't really get what's happening. how are they sending rasputin to timelines that were already erased with the death of a moira clone? it's not an alternate universe. it shouldn't exist at all outside of sinister's records. what is even the point of trying to stop someone they know already failed?
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Jan 11, 2024 17:41
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glitchwraith posted:Plus, the guy it used to be was a real piece of poo poo, and achieving godhood probably hasn't changed that. Listen. Just because my 4 clones and/or clones of my wife were real pieces of poo poo doesn't make me one. The only thing we know about Enigma is that they make fun of Sinisters that don't reach Dominion. Sounds pretty cool to me!
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Jan 11, 2024 19:05
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glitchwraith posted:Plus, the guy it used to be was a real piece of poo poo, and achieving godhood probably hasn't changed that.
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Jan 11, 2024 19:27
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Endless Mike posted:People can change. It would be funny if godhood actually meant Enigma changed for the better and the ending is the heroes learning that this Dominion being a benevolent deity means their worries were for naught. 'Course that's not how comics work, though.
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Jan 11, 2024 19:44
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Endless Mike posted:People can change. I could absolutely see Nathaniel Essex doing sloppy steaks at Truffoni's. He even has the slicked back hair! Saoshyant posted:It would be funny if godhood actually meant Enigma changed for the better and the ending is the heroes learning that this Dominion being a benevolent deity means their worries were for naught. Joking aside, I do think that is a possibility, but in no way would any of the mutants jump to that conclusion given Sinister's history. gimme the GOD drat candy posted:that's why the last issue of immortal was so good. for the first and only time it discussed what a dominion can and can't do and what it would want. but now in rise i don't really get what's happening. how are they sending rasputin to timelines that were already erased with the death of a moira clone? it's not an alternate universe. it shouldn't exist at all outside of sinister's records. what is even the point of trying to stop someone they know already failed? I'm sure those questions will be answered, and will likely involve the two unrevealed members of Xavier's crew to some extent. That said, we can make some educated guesses. Rasputin getting to the main timeline at all shows that travel between them is possible to some extent (at least with magic and a bit of cloning). We also know Enigma can observe and interact with the failed timelines due to existing outside of time and space, which is were the crew is currently stationed hidden in the No Space. As for why they would try, well, what do they have to lose? This isn't the first time the X-Men have behaved recklessly with the timeline. Until they figure out a better way to deal with a Dominion, this is their best shot.
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Jan 11, 2024 20:24
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Have we had any good explanation what No Space is? Also, did Moira just forget about it? Seems weird that they're bunkered in her house.
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Jan 11, 2024 21:11
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danbanana posted:Have we had any good explanation what No Space is? Just that it's a habitat similar to the structures Krakoa can grow, but that it exists outside of Krakoa's consciousness. Moira's now being outside time and space and hidden even from Dominions is new, a combination of Krakoa altering it and, somehow, Cypher's powers. The data pages notes Cypher has new abilities, but the specifics are redacted. I doubt Moira has forgotten about it, it just doesn't seem relevant to Orchis' plans.
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Jan 11, 2024 21:28
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That's why I think Manifold might be one of them in No Space. Seems like an ability he would be able to develop to create a space outside of the universe. Rachel is almost certainly one because of chronoskimming and being such a unique entity.
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Jan 11, 2024 22:06
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"We don't need this base of operations where no one can find us, even the sentient island our enemies live on" is a hell of a decision for RoboMoira to make. I also wasn't sure if "outside space and time" was established elsewhere that I missed because it did seem new to me. It was presented as "on Krakoa without Krakoa knowing." This seems like a beefing up of the concept.
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Jan 11, 2024 22:55
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If I'm following correctly it got upgraded with mysterium
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Jan 11, 2024 23:04
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White hot room double post
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Jan 11, 2024 23:04
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glitchwraith posted:Just that it's a habitat similar to the structures Krakoa can grow, but that it exists outside of Krakoa's consciousness. Moira's now being outside time and space and hidden even from Dominions is new, a combination of Krakoa altering it and, somehow, Cypher's powers. The data pages notes Cypher has new abilities, but the specifics are redacted. The original nowhere spaces were just tumors inside of krakoa, this is another level.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:22
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danbanana posted:"We don't need this base of operations where no one can find us, even the sentient island our enemies live on" is a hell of a decision for RoboMoira to make. This one should be easy to explain: access has been shown to be only available via Krakoa gates, a mutant-only interface. Moira isn't a mutant anymore. That first part brings another question, though: as the gates are currently down, how is Xavier and his team getting in and out? I guess Doug can just ask Krakoa directly for access.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:46
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Saoshyant posted:That first part brings another question, though: as the gates are currently down, how is Xavier and his team getting in and out? I guess Doug can just ask Krakoa directly for access. That could well be part of Doug's redacted updated powers as well, perhaps some sort of more direct melding with Krakoa after he got vore'd before Fall of X. (As an aside, I half-liked Doug's updated powers after he got brought back where he was super good at fighting because he could read everybody's body language, except that he should have lacked the ability to actually counter. He'd just be really good at identifying when he was about to get kicked in the face.) Also, regarding Moira's possible knowledge of No-Places, even if she's aware that Krakoa has a way to access a place outside of time and space, by definition there's not a whole lot she could do about it, it's a fait accompli.
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Jan 12, 2024 00:05
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I remember in late 90s when the grocery stores on semi-rural Idaho sold comics I picked up some x-men comic books. I had no idea what was going on so I asked my mom to pick up the issues that were referenced with * next time she was at the grocery store, having no idea they usually referenced issues that were months long gone and there was no way in hell those grocery stores still carried them. A hard lesson to learn. I also got attached to Ben Reilly as the only active Spider-Man I knew at the time and was probably one of the few who cried when he died but such is middle-school life.
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Jan 12, 2024 03:42
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