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ImpAtom posted:That didn't actually happen. Yeah, logically it’s weird that in marvel comics everyone’s only racist against mutants and Spiderman. How would they even know that Cyclops is a mutant? There’s like 30 guys with beams as their thing.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:30
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He may be a white guy, but people hate Cyclops because of his optimism. He's always looking at everything with rose-colored glasses.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:38
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I AM GRANDO posted:Yeah, logically it’s weird that in marvel comics everyone’s only racist against mutants and Spiderman. How would they even know that Cyclops is a mutant? There’s like 30 guys with beams as their thing. Doesn't Scarlet Witch ping-pong between "Her powers are a mutation" and "Her powers are magic!"? And considering they were having crossovers with Avengers as early as issue 9, you can't really say "Well, they were their own thing at the start". If I were a mutant with special powers, I would just say "Uh... I was exposed to cosmic gamma rays" because gently caress it, that seems to be accepted for everyone else!
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Jan 11, 2024 23:44
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Aramek posted:I'm only racist against Italian mutants. gently caress you Rockslide is awesome.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:48
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I AM GRANDO posted:Yeah, logically it’s weird that in marvel comics everyone’s only racist against mutants and Spiderman. How would they even know that Cyclops is a mutant? There’s like 30 guys with beams as their thing. At least part of the logic was that the vast majority of superheroes were either seemingly not powered at all (Daredevil being blind, for example, wasn't an actually known thing for a good long time), are well-documented Actual Humans (Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Dr. Strange) who either were specifically granted powers or made them themselves. Mutants are "Your child can be be a mutant and there's nothing you can do about it" and that made people angry and scared and they wanted someone to blame despite it making no logical sense. Which on one hand makes no sense at all, on the other hand we have a massively loud and angry group of people trying to make it illegal for trans people to exist near schools in reality so that particular element of the metaphor has probably aged better than others.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:56
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I AM GRANDO posted:Yeah, logically it’s weird that in marvel comics everyone’s only racist against mutants and Spiderman. How would they even know that Cyclops is a mutant? There’s like 30 guys with beams as their thing. That is very much the point.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:59
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I AM GRANDO posted:Yeah, logically it’s weird that in marvel comics everyone’s only racist against mutants and Spiderman. How would they even know that Cyclops is a mutant? There’s like 30 guys with beams as their thing. because in-universe Cyclops is a mutant civil rights leader/terrorist (depending upon the story and who's writing) who's gone on international news several times to shout stuff like "MUTANTS WILL NOT BE PERSECUTED OR WE WILL FIGHT BACK"
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Jan 12, 2024 00:20
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Comics have never made sense with all the crossovers and poo poo. To try and make sense of it as an actual interconnected universe is madness and IMO you shouldn't try.
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Jan 12, 2024 00:31
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DontMockMySmock posted:Comics have never made sense with all the crossovers and poo poo. To try and make sense of it as an actual interconnected universe is madness and IMO you shouldn't try. And it so, so easily tips over into the tedious "but why doesn't Spider-man just call in his entire extended cast, the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, and the Avengers to come beat Green Goblin to a pulp together instead of going it alone??" bullshit.
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Jan 12, 2024 00:43
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But it also leads to cool poo poo like when Captain America showed up during Maximum Carnage.
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Jan 12, 2024 00:52
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I liked the time when Spiderman and Dracula were on the same ship at the same time, but for slightly different reasons, and managed to just miss actually meeting each other.
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Jan 12, 2024 01:01
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Randalor posted:Doesn't Scarlet Witch ping-pong between "Her powers are a mutation" and "Her powers are magic!"? And considering they were having crossovers with Avengers as early as issue 9, you can't really say "Well, they were their own thing at the start". If I were a mutant with special powers, I would just say "Uh... I was exposed to cosmic gamma rays" because gently caress it, that seems to be accepted for everyone else! They're Both 
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Jan 12, 2024 01:06
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Juggernaut must be very tired of explaining that even though he’s Professor X’s brother and exclusively fights the X-Men, he actually gets his powers from a magic rock.
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Jan 12, 2024 02:15
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I AM GRANDO posted:Juggernaut must be very tired of explaining that even though he’s Professor X’s brother and exclusively fights the X-Men, he actually gets his powers from a magic rock. He wasn't fighting the X-Men when he knocked down one of the Twin Towers: 
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Jan 12, 2024 02:45
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Toshimo posted:He wasn't fighting the X-Men when he knocked down one of the Twin Towers: Is it OK if I blame Cyclops anyway?
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Jan 12, 2024 02:56
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Toshimo posted:He wasn't fighting the X-Men when he knocked down one of the Twin Towers: yeah, he was fighting X-Force (and Spider-man)
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Jan 12, 2024 02:59
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Randalor posted:Doesn't Scarlet Witch ping-pong between "Her powers are a mutation" and "Her powers are magic!"? And considering they were having crossovers with Avengers as early as issue 9, you can't really say "Well, they were their own thing at the start". If I were a mutant with special powers, I would just say "Uh... I was exposed to cosmic gamma rays" because gently caress it, that seems to be accepted for everyone else! They seem to have more or less settled on her being a mutant whose power is to do magic. D&D Sorcerer style. John Murdoch posted:And it so, so easily tips over into the tedious "but why doesn't Spider-man just call in his entire extended cast, the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, and the Avengers to come beat Green Goblin to a pulp together instead of going it alone??" bullshit. Because Spider-Man is defined by a guilt complex the size of the Empire State Building he broods on.
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Jan 12, 2024 03:14
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Yes Spider-Man's neurosis forces him to go it alone and he blames himself for everyone who falls by his side. Since that at one point included half of all life in the infinity war he's got a lot of guilt.
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Jan 12, 2024 03:23
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i like the mutant alien whose mutant power is being the only one of his species who has empathy
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Jan 12, 2024 03:25
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InediblePenguin posted:i like the mutant alien whose mutant power is being the only one of his species who has empathy Broo!
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Jan 12, 2024 03:46
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I had assumed that post was about Warlock.
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Jan 12, 2024 03:49
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I like Beak, has he done anything lately, he was great
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Jan 12, 2024 04:26
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I AM GRANDO posted:I had assumed that post was about Warlock.
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Jan 12, 2024 04:43
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I liked Elliot page as kitty pryde
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Jan 12, 2024 05:00
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I AM GRANDO posted:Yeah, logically it’s weird that in marvel comics everyone’s only racist against mutants and Spiderman. How would they even know that Cyclops is a mutant? There’s like 30 guys with beams as their thing. Because racism isn't logical.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:00
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Also people assume Spider-Man is a mutant.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:17
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It's absolutely baked into the concept now, but it's also worth noting that in any meaningful way, any sort of Civil Rights metaphor for mutants was something created pretty exclusively by Chris Claremont when he revamped the X-Men in the mid-late 1970s. The earliest issues of X-Men from the sixties are pretty similar to all of the other superhero books of the era: - The first issue has them saving a military base from an attack by Magneto, and ends with a general shaking Angel's hand and being thankful that the X-Men are on America's side - The second issue opens with adoring teen fans flocking to the cool new X-Men team for autographs and kisses, being recruited by the FBI to help stop The Vanisher, and briefly showing some civilians calling them bums because they initially fail to stop the Vanisher This continues for awhile, the first time there's any public anti-mutant sentiment is in the first appearances of the Sentinels in issue 14, when Bolivar Trask starts an anti-mutant hate group that gets headlines and Xavier talks about "the one thing I've always feared -- a witch-hunt for mutants!" The Sentinels immediately turn against Trask and start planning to reproduce themselves to dominate mutants AND humans, Trask realizes he built the Sentinels "out of ignorance and fear", sacrifices himself to stop the Sentinels, and afterwards a gracious nation apologizes to the X-Men. They continue to have pretty standard superhero adventures with pretty standard superhero interactions with everyone for the remainder of the pre-Claremont run. The only other times Sentinels show up is when Trask's son tries to restart the program, mistakenly thinking that the X-Men killed his daddy and he wants to use the Sentinels to kill the X-Men in revenge. When Claremont relaunches the book in 1975, he inherits the team that Wein and Cockrum introduced in Giant-Size X-Men #1, which features a lot more people who aren't white Americans. By his third issue he adds the "feared and hated by the world they were sworn to protect" to the opening info page and starts actually using that as a storytelling device in a way that no one was really doing much prior to that. In that same issue he reintroduces the Sentinels, but this time they're being funded by the US military (albeit as an off-book project by a rogue zealot), though after the Sentinels are defeated the next few years focus more on aliens and Leprechauns and the Savage Land and whatnot, and Magneto is still basically a pure villain in his first Claremont appearance circa X-Men #100. It's probably not a coincidence that the introduction of Kitty Pryde coincided with both the end of a big cosmic story like the Dark Phoenix Saga and also "Mutants as Metaphor" coming to the foreground as a storytelling concern: X-Men #137 ends with the "Death" of Jean Grey/Phoenix, though it was obviously reversed years later X-Men #138 has Jean's funeral, Cyclops leaving the team, and Kitty Pryde being introduced The next few issues are back to dealing with Wendigos and Doctor Strange guest starring as the X-Men fight demons from other dimensions But then X-Men #141-142 (late 1980) are Days of Future Past, a story about a dystopian future where Sentinels have taken over and put mutants into camps and branded them with tattoos and an adult Pryde is sent to the present to stop an anti-mutant senator from being assassinated by the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, because his death brings about even more punishing anti-mutant laws that bring about Future Pryde's dystopian future. This is arguably the first story [i]about[/] anti-mutant prejudice since the Sentinel stories years earlier. Then in the summer of 1981 Magneto comes back for the first story to really put any "shades of gray" into his character, citing anti-mutant prejudice (and human-on-human predjudice) as part of his motive for wanting to conquer the world. He's still planning on detonating all of the nuclear warheads on the planet when the United Nations refuses to cede global control to him, but in the ensuing fight to stop him from destroying the planet Magneto momentarily thinks he's killed Kitty Pryde and breaks down, mentioning his "childhood in Auschwitz". All of this is built on further by Claremont and later writers. The following year Claremont writes "God Loves, Man Kills", a standalone "graphic novel" which is very specifically about prejudice (both governmental and religious) against mutants, which features Kitty Pryde (whose Jewish identity was being featured more prominently, including in the graphic novel) blows up at a friend of a friend who is going on about how The Purifiers (basically the KKK but against mutants) have a lot of good points, which leads her to drop her first N-Bomb. This is a very long-winded way of saying that when the oft-cited Kitty Prejudice stories happened, the whole "mutants as a metaphor for other marginalized people" was still relatively new, and that Claremont's interest in telling those stories ramped up and became top-of-mind pretty much exactly at the same time that he introduced Kitty Pryde as a point-of-view character, so it makes perfect sense that they're so intertwined.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:49
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Holy poo poo. I did not realize a. Kitty wasn't there for the dark Phoenix saga and b. Was literally introduced in the same issue it ended
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Jan 12, 2024 06:59
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bunnyofdoom posted:Holy poo poo. I did not realize a. Kitty wasn't there for the dark Phoenix saga and b. Was literally introduced in the same issue it ended X-Men 129-131 formally introduces the Hellfire Club in a story where they send Emma Frost out to recruit Kitty Pryde in what turns out to be a ruse to capture the X-Men and use Mastermind to turn Phoenix into "Dark Phoenix". Kitty meets Phoenix in these issues but in the end is flown back to Chicago to live with her parents and drops out of the book for six issues. She arrives at the mansion and joins the team immediately after Dark Phoenix. So she's around, but not present for most of that story and not part of the X-Men.
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Jan 12, 2024 07:39
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Byzantine posted:Also people assume Spider-Man is a mutant. Cyclops saying "I'm glad you aren't a mutant" to Spiderman in Marvel Heroes was pretty hosed up.
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Jan 12, 2024 11:57
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Schubalts posted:Cyclops saying "I'm glad you aren't a mutant" to Spiderman in Marvel Heroes was pretty hosed up. In like the 80s there used to be a running joke subplot across a bunch of comics that Spider-Man really really wanted to be an Avenger but Cap didn't think he had what it took, so Spider-Man kept breaking into the Avengers mansion and trying to prove himself right as one crisis or another happened. He'd sometimes help, sometimes hurt, but it was always "no, Spider-Man, you can't be an Avenger!" Basically, there is a long-running history in Marvel comics of the super teams going "no this is an exclusive club and you're not allowed in, Peter."
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Jan 12, 2024 12:00
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I remember reading some old Spidey comic where he has a anxiety nightmare about trying to join the Avengers but they laugh at him because he's only like 16 and they don't want a literal child joining.
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Jan 12, 2024 12:08
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E:nm
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Jan 12, 2024 12:22
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Toshimo posted:He wasn't fighting the X-Men when he knocked down one of the Twin Towers: Lookit that li'l bitty tongue! Edge & Christian posted:Wein and Cockrum lol
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Jan 12, 2024 12:25
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Arivia posted:
But you let Piotr Rasputin in!
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Jan 12, 2024 14:02
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Arivia posted:In like the 80s there used to be a running joke subplot across a bunch of comics that Spider-Man really really wanted to be an Avenger but Cap didn't think he had what it took, so Spider-Man kept breaking into the Avengers mansion and trying to prove himself right as one crisis or another happened. He'd sometimes help, sometimes hurt, but it was always "no, Spider-Man, you can't be an Avenger!" Spider-Man's second-ever appearance (Amazing Spider-Man #1) has a scene where he breaks into the Baxter Building and spars with the Fantastic Four, only to reveal he's there to apply to be their fifth member. They're tentatively open to it, but when Spider-Man finds out that the FF are a "non-profit" and don't take salaries he blows them off. That kind of sounds like what you were describing? His first full appearance alongside the Avengers is in 1964 when Kang creates a robot duplicate of Spider-Man to infiltrate the Avengers. They're skeptical and say he has to go through an application process and then "Spider-Man" tells them he knows where Iron Man is and how he's a hostage and will die if they don't let him join, so they follow "Spider-Man" into Kang's trap before being saved by the actual Spider-Man which clears his name. A couple years later there's a story in Amazing Spider-Man Annual #3 where the Avengers decide they need new members and Captain America pitches Spider-Man, but there's some opposition (some members don't know if he's been vetted well enough, and the Wasp thinks spiders are gross), so they call him in for testing by having Thor show up on a rooftop and go "HEED MY WORDS, I BRING YOU A SUMMONS FROM THE AVENGERS. YOU ARE ORDERED TO REPORT TO OUR HEADQUARTERS! I HAVE SPOKEN!" which annoys Spider-Man, who claims he's not sure he wants to be an Avenger. He eventually decides he'll try to be an Avenger, both for the money and the sense of heroic obligation, but his 'test' is to bring in the Hulk, and when he discovers (apparently for the first time) that Hulk is really just a transformed Bruce Banner, he doesn't want to send a semi-innocent man to jail and wonders why the Avengers gave him this task and blows them off. He teams up with the Avengers for one-off things repeatedly for the next decade and a half, but doesn't try to 'join' again until the early 1980s, in a callback to the story above and probably the thing you're thinking of, though it's really just one mission and resolves itself in like three consecutive issues. The Avengers need new members, and Thor finds Spider-Man and politely offers him a spot in the Avengers, apologizing for the way he approached him "a few years back". Spider-Man says he'll think about it, but doesn't show up again for over a dozen issues, when he bumps into She-Hulk, one of the people who took the "new Avenger" job and learns from her that the Avengers are now giving out a weekly stiped of $1,000 a week, which adjusted for inflation is like $150,000 a year. So he breaks into the mansion to accept the job offer, but they don't really have an opening at that point and say he's have to go through their "Avengers trainee" program. Spider-Man resents being called a trainee, especially after Thor (who by this point has taken a leave of absence) had previously offered him full membership. The conversation is interrupted by an emergency call for the Avengers, so they tell Spider-Man to come back later. Still, Spider-Man has bills to pay so he decides to stow away on the Quinjet to 'prove his worth' at the emergency at Project Pegasus, which he does. After they return home, Captain America reaches out to their government liaison to let them know Spider-Man is joining, but the government is against letting someone with a secret identity and a bad reputation join the team, and before Captain America can please his case to the government Spider-Man quits. There's a callback to that story a decade later where once again Thor bumps into Spider-Man in the midst of a crisis and tells him to tag along to Avengers HQ so Spider-Man is there when the Avengers are teleported into a void by Nebula. He joins the team to stop all of Nebula's plans, but at the end he and Captain America mutually agree he's better suited to be a solo street level hero and they shake hands and part amicably. The next time he sort of joins the Avengers he actually does it, in the early 2000s.
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Jan 12, 2024 14:29
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Yeah I think you’re right. The bit about Peter finding out they get paid from She-Hulk sounds familiar, at least.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:52
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Mooseontheloose posted:But you let Piotr Rasputin in! 
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Jan 12, 2024 15:59
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He got his chance during that story where he just went by Parker while Miles Morales swung around as The Mighty Peter
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Jan 12, 2024 16:21
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What is the Russian equivalent of Hyuck Hyuck?
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Jan 12, 2024 19:36
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