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NieR Occomata posted:There is a common trend in film discourse, specifically film bro discourse (hello Snyder fans) where the movie is poorly made enough but throws enough random bullshit in there that assholes can collect the ideas they like from the movie they watched because it threw everything but the loving kitchen sink in there and praise the movie that they made up in their head and you end up having to argue against a non-existent glorified fancanon. Uh oh
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Jan 12, 2024 05:20
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CelticPredator posted:I’d rather make art than talk about it tbh. It’s more fun and rewarding. Right? If you want to hear about it they gotta have a weirdness or it's boring
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Jan 12, 2024 05:21
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A coincidental point I want to make is when people go “oh the movie is actually a huge metaphor for (something about the filmmaker’s personal life) and therefore it’s better because????? The Boy and the Heron is a good counter example for this. I hate that movie and could talk about how as a constructed film it takes forever to get into its second act, wasting almost half its runtime on setup, or how it waffles between being a weird tone piece and every thirty minutes having someone inartfully exposition dumping backstory so it feels like it’s running at cross purposes and feels kind of like it wants it both ways, or how all the tertiary characters are introduced in its third act so never get time to become realized. If you liked it, though, I want to hear why as long as the answer isn’t “oh you see it’s one big metaphor for Miyazaki’s history as a creator and actually these characters are supposed to be stand-ins from the people in his past”. I shouldn’t need a fuckin’ GameFAQs guide to enjoy a movie and even more than that if the film doesn’t adequately communicate its metaphors on the screen within the context of watching the movie, that movie has failed. Full stop.
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Jan 12, 2024 05:37
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Nah
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Jan 12, 2024 05:45
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One of the best things I ever heard was on a legal podcast making fun of Milo Yionopolis, after he got his book pulped by Simon and Shuster and tried to defend himself. One of the hosts said "you don't have to be a genius to do this but you kind of have to do this to do this". And it's some good words. The best musician I ever met was dunce cap fuckin' dim but he played the mountain dulcimer like a beautiful sweety Thought I was smart but I don't even know how to put a dulcimer in place let alone how to make beautiful music on it The Peccadillo fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 06:00
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NieR Occomata posted:If you liked it, though, I want to hear why as long as the answer isn’t “oh you see it’s one big metaphor for Miyazaki’s history as a creator and actually these characters are supposed to be stand-ins from the people in his past”. I liked it a lot. You're correct that the movie doesn't lay anything out clean enough to say "it's about this" definitively, but I didn't mind that. My walk away thought was that it's about that you can't force the next generation to accept the world you've built for them. "It's open to interpretation" is too generous as it does leave a lot unexplained, but there's enough there to work with that I don't think it's a failure. Not sure that you need to know Miyazaki’s history to clock any of that. As much as I wanted more spirit world poo poo (still wish each of the old ladies had gotten the youthful pirate treatment), I dug the first half you felt dragged well enough. Went in blind, so I was almost anticipating the entire movie just being this dumb kid violently rejecting the call-to-adventure. I'm sure someone has done it already, but a full story about Alice not following the rabbit, and then making weapons to hunt and destroy the rabbit is funny. If it dragged, I didn't notice over the lovely attention to detail in the characters movements and the painted backgrounds too. CatstropheWaitress fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 06:00
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NieR Occomata posted:There is a common trend in film discourse, specifically film bro discourse (hello Snyder fans) where the movie is poorly made enough but throws enough random bullshit in there that assholes can collect the ideas they like from the movie they watched because it threw everything but the loving kitchen sink in there and praise the movie that they made up in their head and you end up having to argue against a non-existent glorified fancanon. Thought this was about Army of Darkness at first
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Jan 12, 2024 06:01
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I was gonna see this bluegrass guy and my girlfriend was super insistent that she tag along, and I was like "you wont like it a dork is gonna play Cripple Creek on the banjo or something and the crowd is gonna go wild and you'll be like "the gently caress is this"" Exactly that happened
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Jan 12, 2024 07:50
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Lol and there comes the other argument that all movies are slop and the people 'analysing' and 'discussing' them are just making poo poo up and pretending the movies are good to look cool or something.
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Jan 12, 2024 08:01
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NieR Occomata posted:There is a common trend in film discourse, specifically film bro discourse (hello Snyder fans) where the movie is poorly made enough but throws enough random bullshit in there that assholes can collect the ideas they like from the movie they watched because it threw everything but the loving kitchen sink in there and praise the movie that they made up in their head and you end up having to argue against a non-existent glorified fancanon. Calm down nerd. Nobody uses the extremely debatable presence of those "easter eggs" as a defense of the movie, Army is a fun little ghoul movie on it's own empirical merits. Your question is incoherent, so of course you can't receive an adequate answer to it! If someone says that a movie has only a single tiny aspect they liked, and that's it, they're not praising it as an incredible movie - you've badly misinterpreted or confused your own made up example!
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Jan 12, 2024 08:23
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CatstropheWaitress posted:I liked it a lot. You're correct that the movie doesn't lay anything out clean enough to say "it's about this" definitively, but I didn't mind that. My walk away thought was that it's about that you can't force the next generation to accept the world you've built for them. "It's open to interpretation" is too generous as it does leave a lot unexplained, but there's enough there to work with that I don't think it's a failure. Not sure that you need to know Miyazaki’s history to clock any of that. Yeah see I respect TBaTH, even though I hate it, and I can’t deny it was made with passion and meaning even if I feel like that passion and meaning was extremely poorly done. Regardless I think you kind of captured my central frustration with the first act; I mean, I work at a movie theater so I saw the trailer literally dozens of times before I saw the movie but even removed from that I don’t think there’s a world where I don’t think Mahito goes through the tunnel. I think the cinematic language the movie was using was pulling Mahito further and further into the Heron’s (and by extension, the dreamworld’s as a whole) orbit, so it really felt like just a lot of wasting time that both 1) made for a movie that was just way too long in general and 2) ended up with really underdeveloped tertiary characters. To me TbaTH is a more inscrutable and longer and much less effectively done Spirited Away in virtually every way, from basic premises being near-copies of each other, to plot beats, to main character archetypes, to resolution, to ending, it’s just Spirited Away did it better in basically every conceivable way and in a shorter time that flowed better and with no random throwing of the narrative brakes so a character could just tell the audience what’s going on every thirty minutes or so. Like, Chihiro is working at the bathhouse within 15 minutes of the movie’s start, which both makes the movie get into its meat much better and also gives you an actual understanding of who people like Noh, Haku, Boh and so on are, in contrast to Mahito meeting basically everyone in his supporting cast like 15 minutes before the movie’s end.
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Jan 12, 2024 08:28
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Blood Boils posted:Calm down nerd. Nobody uses the extremely debatable presence of those "easter eggs" as a defense of the movie, Army is a fun little ghoul movie on it's own empirical merits. It’s such a poorly made film that the character that they spend the entire third act saving is never adequately written out of the film, leaving a plot hole so gaping (I guess she died in the helicopter crash? I dunno!) you could run a truck through it. By every empirical metric it’s an overlong piece of garbage that introduces a billion plot threads that serve no purpose beyond inflating its runtime while centrally failing at delivering on its stated premise, a zombie movie that’s also a heist movie. Which is more my point. As a film it so fails at every aspect of being a coherent, watchable movie because it gets so tied up in its B-Z plots and “easter eggs” or whatever defense Snyder fans use to pretend a very bad movie is good that it fails at very, you know, super basic stuff like sequential storytelling.
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Jan 12, 2024 08:36
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i'll back you up on the boy and the heron hate. i was so extremely and utterly disappointed by it, and it really does feel to me like people only enjoy it because of what the subtext implies about the creator's artistic journey. as far as i'm concerned, there isn't enough substance within the context of the film itself to carry it. but hey... idk
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Jan 12, 2024 09:59
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I generally like The Boy and the Heron but it’s absolutely super frustrating how much of a like, shaggy dog story it becomes in the second half, constantly introducing new elements that while they or may not be good in themselves/have interesting subtext don’t seem to fit together to make something coherent. I like it more now than when I first saw it in October but I still think that scattered feeling stops it from being great. Very funny that he almost bankrupted his studio to make something that feels so completely subconscious and abstract tbh.
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Jan 12, 2024 10:10
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It's just Labyrinth with a longer first act. I love Labyrinth, and I liked The Boy And The Heron. I was moved, I experienced awe and light fear and cried a bit. I can dig deeper and work out why I felt those things, what I think the story was working towards, how effective I felt it did that, whatever. But not everything needs that analysis and I think it's fine to just enjoy the thing. Frankly, a lot of people don't have the language or practice in doing that, and I think that's okay. I don't like the idea that there's a correct way to talk about your experience with art. It's your experience, you get to define what that is. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 12:26
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Many boring superficial people exist. however! people having surface-level reactions to movies or art in general doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t intelligent people who are deeply interested in other topics. (They’re unlikely to ever be my besties, though, tbh) On The Boy and the Heron, I really don’t know how to draw the line or attempt to critically distinguish between “a bunch of half-baked elements that don’t cohere” and “a film that trusts the audience’s intelligence and allows them to actively collaborate in the construction of its meaning by handing them the ingredients but refusing readymade explanations or explicit connections.” Maybe it’s just personal taste? I mean, I can’t logically refute the second position. But I infinitely prefer Spirited Away because it works for me on, like, a basic, immediate, emotional level as a drama. It’s engaging as a narrative whereas I can’t get past viewing TBaTH coldly, as a thought exercise, at best.
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Jan 12, 2024 12:28
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snyder film bro here,
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Jan 12, 2024 12:52
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Lobster Henry posted:Many boring superficial people exist. however! people having surface-level reactions to movies or art in general doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t intelligent people who are deeply interested in other topics. I think that is simply down to personal judgment. I am in the former camp, and as a reasonably intelligent film watcher it simply didn't move me. I think quite a lot of criticism is trying to articulate, explain and analyse how a work makes one feel. To me, if a film successfully makes me feel something then it has succeeded. That said, films that are badly written, acted, shot, or generally badly made will generally fail to move me, and hence fail as films. Speaking of which i just had to submit my BAFTA votes for Best Film, which was very hard. I think I know what my top three are, but ranking them was near-impossible. In the end I went with 1 The Zone of Interest 2 Poor Things 3 All of Us Strangers 4 Anatomy of a Fall 5 Killers of The Flower Moon I saw KOTM this week, after it was long-listed, and I was impressed. Yes, it's a bit long, and there are questions about who is centered in the story, but I still thought it was really good. As a film about race, politics and greed in America I thought it worked very well well. It's a truly horrifying story, exquisitely made. You can really see the money on the screen - impeccable costuming, set design, etc. I also think that Leo is quite a brave actor to take on the role of such a weak character - not every leading man is prepared to do that.
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Jan 12, 2024 13:45
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He's a great choice for the role too as many viewers (including me) will go on with (unconscious) expectations about the kind of character Di Caprio plays. And then you get to see and feel those expectations unravelled which makes the film all the more shocking
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Jan 12, 2024 13:49
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CelticPredator posted:Uh oh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KE-Ze-VPeE
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Jan 12, 2024 14:51
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NieR Occomata posted:Yeah see I respect TBaTH, even though I hate it, and I can’t deny it was made with passion and meaning even if I feel like that passion and meaning was extremely poorly done. I know I've lost this fight against initialising stuff. People think its okay and hell let a thousand flowers bloom. I'm gonna imagine a non-existant movie title whenever I see something like "TBaTH" and enjoy that instead of feeling mad for no real purpose
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Jan 12, 2024 14:53
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The Peccadillo posted:I know I've lost this fight against initialising stuff. People think its okay and hell let a thousand flowers bloom. I'm gonna imagine a non-existant movie title whenever I see something like "TBaTH" and enjoy that instead of feeling mad for no real purpose I think they're talking about How Do You Live
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Jan 12, 2024 14:55
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distortion park posted:He's a great choice for the role too as many viewers (including me) will go on with (unconscious) expectations about the kind of character Di Caprio plays. And then you get to see and feel those expectations unravelled which makes the film all the more shocking Yes, he’s very well cast too. I think it’s brave to agree to play such a weak character, particularly when you have actors who, for instance, won’t allow themselves getting punched on camera because they have to be the good guy/hero all the time
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Jan 12, 2024 15:00
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therattle posted:Yes, he’s very well cast too. I think it’s brave to agree to play such a weak character, particularly when you have actors who, for instance, won’t allow themselves getting punched on camera because they have to be the good guy/hero all the time The first time Dwayne Johnson tried to be a serious actor, dropping the "The Rock" from his credit and playing an interesting character in a complex movie for grownups, the ignorant, lazy, stupid audience and critics threw a fit and made the movie flop. Blame them, not him.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:06
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Gripweed posted:The first time Dwayne Johnson tried to be a serious actor, dropping the "The Rock" from his credit and playing an interesting character in a complex movie for grownups, the ignorant, lazy, stupid audience and critics threw a fit and made the movie flop. Blame them, not him. If you’re referring to Southland Tales then I am not entirely sure that critics and audiences actively made that film flop because he dropped The Rock from his name (or that the lesson he should have taken from it was “never show myself getting beaten up on screen”). Doesn’t Statham have something similar? therattle fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 16:29
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NieR Occomata posted:It’s such a poorly made film that the character that they spend the entire third act saving is never adequately written out of the film, leaving a plot hole so gaping (I guess she died in the helicopter crash? I dunno!) you could run a truck through it. By every empirical metric it’s an overlong piece of garbage that introduces a billion plot threads that serve no purpose beyond inflating its runtime while centrally failing at delivering on its stated premise, a zombie movie that’s also a heist movie. Which is more my point. As a film it so fails at every aspect of being a coherent, watchable movie because it gets so tied up in its B-Z plots and “easter eggs” or whatever defense Snyder fans use to pretend a very bad movie is good that it fails at very, you know, super basic stuff like sequential storytelling. That extremely minor character simply isn't important beyond being motivation for the daughter and maybe the coyote to join the expedition. She probably does die in the helicopter crash, but if you want her to survive she could just be knocked out! It wouldn't change anything either way. The movie is entirely sequential, there's no flashbacks iirc. How does the movie fail to be a zombie heist movie lmao Do you know what 'empirical' means
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Jan 12, 2024 17:40
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NieR Occomata posted:A coincidental point I want to make is when people go “oh the movie is actually a huge metaphor for (something about the filmmaker’s personal life) and therefore it’s better because????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qWIo-XhuIE NieR Occomata posted:It’s such a poorly made film that the character that they spend the entire third act saving is never adequately written out of the film, leaving a plot hole so gaping (I guess she died in the helicopter crash? I dunno!) you could run a truck through it. By every empirical metric it’s an overlong piece of garbage that introduces a billion plot threads that serve no purpose beyond inflating its runtime while centrally failing at delivering on its stated premise, a zombie movie that’s also a heist movie. Which is more my point. As a film it so fails at every aspect of being a coherent, watchable movie because it gets so tied up in its B-Z plots and “easter eggs” or whatever defense Snyder fans use to pretend a very bad movie is good that it fails at very, you know, super basic stuff like sequential storytelling. empiricism doesn’t exist for art in the manner with which you’re using it, hth
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Jan 12, 2024 17:49
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*NieR Occomata prepares a sniper rifle* referencing other works in your art to further elucidate your themes, huh? prepare to die, motherbitch
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Jan 12, 2024 17:51
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NieR Occomata posted:There is a common trend in film discourse, specifically film bro discourse (hello Snyder fans) where the movie is poorly made enough but throws enough random bullshit in there that assholes can collect the ideas they like from the movie they watched because it threw everything but the loving kitchen sink in there and praise the movie that they made up in their head and you end up having to argue against a non-existent glorified fancanon. this is what cringe comedy means right? tough to identify sometimes
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Jan 12, 2024 18:51
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I hardly remember that movie but do remember also being pissed off the mcguffin character who so much emphasis had been put for the protagonists motivation got discarded so easily both by them and the movie. Tig being green-screened into the movie was funny to watch for tho. iirc they didn't do a bad job of incorporating her in, but every time it was just her on screen couldn't help but chuckle knowing she was filming that probably months after the scene was actually shot.
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Jan 12, 2024 21:26
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NieR Occomata posted:(hello Snyder fans) hi  NieR Occomata posted:entire rest of post hey! 
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Jan 12, 2024 22:18
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Seriously tho I don't think I've seen a single Snyder fan on these forums praise the random one-off world-building elements of Army of the Dead over like, the acting of Bautista, the character interactions between him and his daughter, etc Not denying there are people who do that but I would advise against engaging with those people unless you're doing it to feel superior, which hey I admit, you are superior to those bone heads
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Jan 12, 2024 22:21
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NieR Occomata posted:There is a common trend in film discourse, specifically film bro discourse (hello Snyder fans) where the movie is poorly made enough but throws enough random bullshit in there that assholes can collect the ideas they like from the movie they watched because it threw everything but the loving kitchen sink in there and praise the movie that they made up in their head and you end up having to argue against a non-existent glorified fancanon. You should consider not being on Twitter.
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Jan 12, 2024 22:29
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Pirate Jet posted:You should consider not being on Twitter. I got off Twitter a few months ago and I regret it. I know way less about what's going on politically and culturally, and I don't see half as much cool art or porn anymore.
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Jan 12, 2024 22:31
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Lol Also don't make this convo about snyder
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Jan 12, 2024 22:34
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Gripweed posted:I got off Twitter a few months ago and I regret it. I know way less about what's going on politically and culturally, and I don't see half as much cool art or porn anymore. oh no where will you find porn on the internet
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Jan 12, 2024 22:45
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MacheteZombie posted:Also don't make this convo about snyder Nier Occomata literally started this conversation by saying that all praise of Army of the Dead is disingenuous.
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Jan 12, 2024 22:46
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Empirically there's enough evidence out there that people really do produce smoke from their ears when they type negative things about his films. I suppose that's one way some of us cope in a late capitalist society. We gotta invent our boogiemen to get mad at and feel as if we make a difference fighting; at films we'll never watch ever again. Each hyperbolic, seething word is like another arrow to use against that dragon. Each opinion masked in objectivity backed by appeals to authority are a bulwark against that dragon's evil. You won't heal if you keep all that hate in your heart, friend. Let it go. Jimbot fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 22:47
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Every time I see someone disparaging Snyder bros, I’m like drat, why are you coming so hard at teagone like that?
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Jan 12, 2024 22:51
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i may not like the man's movies but he makes a quality pretzel
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