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Hong XiuQuan posted:Then the right thing to do is put pressure on its genocidal proxy. Not risk wider regional conflict and in so doing also kill more people. It may be your take that the Houthis attacking random ships is Israel's fault but the USN and RN aren't obliged to agree. In any case and regardless of the motivation the quickest way to get them to stop is probably to blow up the launchers.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:33
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knox_harrington posted:It may be your take that the Houthis attacking random ships is Israel's fault but the USN and RN aren't obliged to agree. In any case and regardless of the motivation the quickest way to get them to stop is probably to blow up the launchers. They aren't,but to say they are causing more damage and disruption when the USN and RN have already killed more than them in the first day of operations is certainly something to consider.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:37
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Kalit posted:Do you think that protesters block traffic lanes in cities with the goal being to put economic pressure on a city? That's the first time I've heard that claim. I've participated in it with a goal to be to raise awareness of an issue with the general public. And I think it's safe to say that it was the same goal as nearly everyone else in protests that block traffic in a city. Not economic pressure, but pressure on economic lanes. "Raising awareness" amongst the general public isn't often a particularly useful strategy, and locking someone into a few hours' gridlock isn't really a great way to align someone with your cause. Blocking traffic, disrupting business and the flow of goods and labor, forces the government to recognize what you're demanding with the implicit threat that you can and are willing to continue and expand this disruption. The protestors aren't targeting the people in the cars.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:38
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Just started watching Israel's response at the Court and the first guy does not have an Israeli accent yet says "khamas". Not as bad as his invoking the Holocaust to open his statements but pretty embarrassing.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:41
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knox_harrington posted:It may be your take that the Houthis attacking random ships is Israel's fault but the USN and RN aren't obliged to agree. In any case and regardless of the motivation the quickest way to get them to stop is probably to blow up the launchers. Weird, according to an official briefing reporters yesterday, the US and UK expect attacks on shipping to increase: https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/1745606101087768655?t=_3VdudODVD3m2tGAAlhuFw&s=19
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Jan 12, 2024 16:46
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Western leadership doesn’t seem to care about anything besides arm sales.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:49
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Josef bugman posted:They aren't,but to say they are causing more damage and disruption when the USN and RN have already killed more than them in the first day of operations is certainly something to consider. That doesn't really matter given the naval ships have shot down a load of attacks. You don't need to wait for one to get through for it to be legit defence of shipping. Then from a military perspective it's much much better to defeat the threat at source than when multiple missiles are closing in on the targets.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:51
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hadji murad posted:Western leadership doesn’t seem to care about anything besides arm sales. Arms sales are a thing, sure, but I've always found this weird as some all encompassing base motivation. The US did like 110B in arms exports last year. Apple alone have more than twice that in non US sales. The total lobbying and contribution of the entire defense industry over the last 20 years is like 3b. AT&T alone spent 500m in the same time period. I think a better mindset is that Western, or any county really, will first and foremost do what they perceive is in the in the interests of its own citizens before any other considerations.
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Jan 12, 2024 19:02
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I know believing in morals in politics is passé but what if the Houthis are targetting Israeli-linked ships for the love of their brothers in Palestine and doing a bit of opportunistic piracy on the side as well.
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Jan 12, 2024 19:42
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Why didn't we bomb Israel when they hijacked cargo ships and slaughtered the crew.
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Jan 12, 2024 20:24
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Meadowhill posted:I know believing in morals in politics is passé but what if the Houthis are targetting Israeli-linked ships for the love of their brothers in Palestine and doing a bit of opportunistic piracy on the side as well. Then they have poor targeting on their aim.
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Jan 12, 2024 20:44
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Ograbme posted:Why didn't we bomb Israel when they hijacked cargo ships and slaughtered the crew. When/ did they do that?
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Jan 12, 2024 20:47
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knox_harrington posted:When/ did they do that? This was a fairly big deal at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid I've linked wikipedia, but a lot of it is sourced from the UN investigation report that you can find in the footnotes where they assess that it looks an awful lot like there were a half dozen executions.
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Jan 12, 2024 21:03
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knox_harrington posted:When/ did they do that? israel has a long history of destroying or raiding civilian ships. And, famously, an American navy ship
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Jan 12, 2024 21:05
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Alchenar posted:This was a fairly big deal at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid Wasn't someone planning another flotilla? Like a huge 100-ship one? What happened to that?
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Jan 12, 2024 21:06
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PostNouveau posted:Wasn't someone planning another flotilla? Like a huge 100-ship one? What happened to that? There's been a few proposals but really they range from 'will definitely disappear with the money' to 'will definitely drown before getting into the Mediterranean' https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/attempts-to-organize-an-aid-flotilla-to-the-gaza-strip/
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Jan 12, 2024 21:14
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Alchenar posted:This was a fairly big deal at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid You mean the Hamas-run United Nations?
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Jan 12, 2024 21:58
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Don't Bomb the Houthisquote:International actors must respond to the Houthis’ attacks, both to preserve the Red Sea shipping route and to prevent further regional escalation. But the United States is confronted by an array of bad and worse options for how to do so. Some politicians and analysts have argued that the best way to counter Houthi aggression is with military escalation designed to “restore deterrence.” This perspective sees the United States’ eventual decision, in 2021, to push for peace negotiations in Yemen as a failed policy of appeasement. It seems as though people who seriously study the region think that bombing the Houthis won't achieve our goals, will only strengthen their position, and will only embolden more attacks.
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Jan 12, 2024 22:15
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It already seems to have put the civil war on pause and united all sides against the US.
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Jan 12, 2024 22:34
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Marenghi posted:It already seems to have put the civil war on pause and united all sides against the US. Do you have a link to this? Since the US and UK have only been striking Houthi targets in the Houthi-controlled area (AFAIK), I'd be surprised if the Republic of Yemen were opposed....
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Jan 12, 2024 22:39
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Marenghi posted:It already seems to have put the civil war on pause and united all sides against the US. How could this have even possibly happened that fast you have a source?
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Jan 12, 2024 22:40
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/12/world-reacts-to-us-uk-attacks-on-houthi-targets-in-yemen?traffic_source=KeepReadingquote:Yemen’s Saudi-backed, internationally recognised government, blamed the Houthis for the UK and US strikes, saying the rebels bore responsibility for dragging Yemen into a conflict with its attacks in the Red Sea.
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Jan 12, 2024 22:45
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An attack against ships has happened close to Aden, which is controlled by the secular, secessionist Southern Transitional Council, who were opposed to the Houthi's. Them entering the fray now seems to indicate their position. But I misspoke when I said all sides, the Saudi backed government in the north hasn't done anything against the US coalition. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ukmto-receives-report-of-incident-in-red-sea-near-yemens-aden/
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Jan 12, 2024 22:49
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Marenghi posted:An attack against ships has happened close to Aden, which is controlled by the secular, secessionist Southern Transitional Council, who were opposed to the Houthi's. Them entering the fray now seems to indicate their position. As a reminder, the Republic of Yemen is the internationally recognized government in the country. It's baffling how you wouldn't take them into consideration while talking about how the civil war is "on pause". Also, that article says nothing about STC's reaction. So it seems like an extreme stretch to claim that they are united with the Houthis against the US because of the strikes... E: Looking at another article about this incident, it seems like your claim that it was an attack is even false: https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2024/01/12/UKMTO-receives-report-of-incident-in-Red-Sea-near-Yemen-s-Aden quote:“Two small boats are reported to have followed a merchant vessel for over one hour,” the advisory note said, adding the vessel reported that no weapons were sighted. Kalit fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 22:59
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I'd also note that Houthis have long-range missiles and drones that can easily reach near Aden. In the absence of other evidence I'd assume that's what's happening rather than an extremely dramatic about-face from the Southern Transitional Council, which has previously expressed willingness to work with Israel against the Houthis. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231211-yemens-southern-transitional-council-expresses-interest-in-israel-cooperation/
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Jan 12, 2024 23:03
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quote:If the US (or anyone else) cared anything at all about civilians dying they'd stop israel, not the Houthis. The ships they're targeting being israeli or not don't matter, they're not trying to disrupt israel's economy specifically, they're trying to disrupt global trade in order to force international action on Gaza. It is about the genocide of Palestinians, and they are basically the only group on earth sticking their necks out to try and stop the slaughter. Again, the houthis have been engaging in this opportunistic piracy for a long time, and without the support of anyone that they're now supposedly trying to help by "forcing international action on Gaza." Nothing changed except that israeli-led destabilization of the area was an excellent ideological cover for "let's kill/kidnap more merchant mariners and take their stuff" — which is an act they've successfully threaded the needle on before now.
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Jan 12, 2024 23:56
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I think at this point we need to see sources for the claim "the Houthi's have regularly engaged in piracy for financial benefit" I've seen articles about them attacking Saudi warships and civilian vessels from UAE ( who they've been at war with for seven years) but nothing about them disrupting random global trade before the Gaza genocide.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:16
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They've completely halted all traffic to Israel's Eilat port while still allowing plenty of other traffic through, which was not the case before, so either they're doing something different or people with much more information and much more on the line than anyone in this thread believe that they're doing something different.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:21
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knox_harrington posted:That doesn't really matter given the naval ships have shot down a load of attacks. You don't need to wait for one to get through for it to be legit defence of shipping. Then from a military perspective it's much much better to defeat the threat at source than when multiple missiles are closing in on the targets. It's great how "they would have done damage and harmed more people, we just won't need to prove it" is unfalsifiable as an idea. The USN and RN have not defeated the threat at source though. All that has happened is casual bombing of people. Again.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:28
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Kalit posted:As a reminder, the Republic of Yemen is the internationally recognized government in the country. It's baffling how you wouldn't take them into consideration while talking about how the civil war is "on pause". UKMTO confirms basically confirms the attack, see #551 https://www.ukmto.org/indian-ocean/recent-incidents
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Jan 13, 2024 00:33
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Kalit posted:As a reminder, the Republic of Yemen is the internationally recognized government in the country. It's baffling how you wouldn't take them into consideration while talking about how the civil war is "on pause".
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Jan 13, 2024 00:34
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cat botherer posted:The Houthi government is the one with by far the biggest popular mandate. It controls the areas where the great majority of Yemenis live. Of course they aren’t the recognized government, because the West doesn’t like them. However, getting hung up on that is like someone in 1960 saying that the RoC is the internationally recognized government of China. It's not really comparable to that situation as literally only Iran recognizes the Houthi as the proper government of Yemen. I do agree that they are the government on the ground for the majority of Yemen's population.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:47
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HazCat posted:They've completely halted all traffic to Israel's Eilat port while still allowing plenty of other traffic through, which was not the case before, so either they're doing something different or people with much more information and much more on the line than anyone in this thread believe that they're doing something different. They've been doing more than that. It's demonstrable that they've been attacking ships not linked to Israel, regardless if you believe they're doing something different. Considering their most recent gently caress-up was accidentally attacking a russian oil tanker, I question what sort of information they're receiving. Josef bugman posted:It's great how "they would have done damage and harmed more people, we just won't need to prove it" is unfalsifiable as an idea. I'm sorry, what? An armed group attacks ships with missiles - which is incredibly risky for the people on the receiving end of it, not even taking into account the damage caused to these ships - and we can't consider an outcome that could have been worse? We're aware that they've kidnapped sailors, right? Or does that not count?
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Jan 13, 2024 00:49
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cat botherer posted:The Houthi government is the one with by far the biggest popular mandate. It controls the areas where the great majority of Yemenis live. Of course they aren’t the recognized government, because the West doesn’t like them. However, getting hung up on that is like someone in 1960 saying that the RoC is the internationally recognized government of China. Pretty cool how you distilled a regional proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran largely dominated by local political, religious, and ethnic factors into 'the West doesn't like them'.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:51
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Marenghi posted:An attack against ships has happened close to Aden, which is controlled by the secular, secessionist Southern Transitional Council, who were opposed to the Houthi's. Them entering the fray now seems to indicate their position. Are you trying to say that the STC attacked the ship? As everything I’ve seen indicates it was a Houthi attempt on a tanker that failed. Josef bugman posted:It's great how "they would have done damage and harmed more people, we just won't need to prove it" is unfalsifiable as an idea. Just because they have failed to do much damage, does not mean for lack of trying.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:52
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Kagrenak posted:It's not really comparable to that situation as literally only Iran recognizes the Houthi as the proper government of Yemen. I do agree that they are the government on the ground for the majority of Yemen's population. Okay, it's comparable to the recognition of the Taliban as Afghanistan's government. Just a refusal to recognize basic observable reality in the face of geopolitical concerns.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:54
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cat botherer posted:The Houthi government is the one with by far the biggest popular mandate. It controls the areas where the great majority of Yemenis live. Of course they aren’t the recognized government, because the West doesn’t like them. However, getting hung up on that is like someone in 1960 saying that the RoC is the internationally recognized government of China.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:57
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ok i think being backed by the KSA is a pretty strong point against the legitimacy of the north gov
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Jan 13, 2024 01:16
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https://x.com/akbarsahmed/status/1745951279933780200?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q ... wut
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Jan 13, 2024 01:20
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/akbarsahmed/status/1745951279933780200?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q ....ok if this isnt bullshit the biden admin is clinging to the saudi-israel deal harder than homer clinged to the runaway grilled pig
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Jan 13, 2024 01:36
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