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GhastlyBizness posted:Travellers (or Irish Travellers) are a distinct ethnic group from the Romani but same issue. I'm now genuinely confused as to what terms are not offensive to describe these people. That one just seems so neutrally descriptive from my ignorant perspective.
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Jan 15, 2024 03:11
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Forest Nomads
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Jan 15, 2024 03:40
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My grandmother used to be pretty proud of the fact that her own grandparents/great-grandparents were ‘bargees’ (boat people) although would go pretty cagey when asked if this meant they were immigrants.
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Jan 15, 2024 03:56
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Feels like the situation with any euphemism treadmill as with mental differences (idiot/moron/the r word etc), also the issue with terms for queer people (including the word queer itself): because the people being described are hated, any and every word used to describe them will be used as a slur
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Jan 15, 2024 04:00
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Stayne Falls posted:I'm now genuinely confused as to what terms are not offensive to describe these people. That one just seems so neutrally descriptive from my ignorant perspective. you could always just ask them what they prefer?
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Jan 15, 2024 04:07
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NoiseAnnoys posted:you could always just ask them what they prefer? This is probably the best answer. I myself am a bit soft on the G word, since I know some people somewhere identify with it ( and im not talking about the white lady at the flea market who wears a lot of chunky jewelry and listens to Stevie Nicks), but I'm also not gonna go around using it. The big problem with it is it's an exonym, much like many of the names we had for native american tribes, it was given to a group by an outside source, and those are at best, not flattering, and at worst straight up insults. That's a big problem when you ask what to call those people over there and someone says those are "Goons". Then you go around using it until someone stops you and says "you know goon actually means "rear end in a top hat who wont stop talking about anime" right? So probably just ask. I used to know a lady whose family used the G word to describe their heritage because most americans only knew that word, and THEY WERE NOT ROMA! like her grandfather would get very mad at that mistake. I think they were called Sinto. When I was more active in archeology in the 90's/early00's, if you weren't sure, the most neutral term was usually "the _____ speaking people", like if you didn't know Inuit, you might refer to them as Athabaskan speaking people rather than saying eskimo. WaywardWoodwose has a new favorite as of 05:01 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 04:44
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WaywardWoodwose posted:Sinto "Sinti und Roma" is the officical umbrella term used in Germany, so that probably tracks.
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Jan 15, 2024 05:44
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Dave Syndrome posted:"Sinti und Roma" is the officical umbrella term used in Germany, so that probably tracks. elsewhere in Central Europe there’s a lot of disagreement over terms because of the legacy of horribly oppressive regimes and whatnot so it’s always best to ask. i have students who prefer cigán over roma/sinti and vice versa. when in doubt just ask is a good rule.
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Jan 15, 2024 06:55
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Edge & Christian posted:They released Waid's original version several years back and I feel like "made Red Skull too sympathetic" is really weird take on the book. Ah. I was just going by what I heard at the time. Thats a shame then.
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Jan 15, 2024 10:22
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NoiseAnnoys posted:elsewhere in Central Europe there’s a lot of disagreement over terms because of the legacy of horribly oppressive regimes and whatnot so it’s always best to ask. i have students who prefer cigán over roma/sinti and vice versa. Oh, absolutely. I was just responding to the "I think they were called Sinto" comment to confirm that yes, some do use the word Sinto (singular) or Sinti (plural) to refer to their group.
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Jan 15, 2024 10:30
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Stayne Falls posted:I'm now genuinely confused as to what terms are not offensive to describe these people. That one just seems so neutrally descriptive from my ignorant perspective. If you want to refer specifically to the Irish subset, "Travellers", or "Irish Travellers", is uncontroversial. Capitalising the T in traveller helps make it clear you're referring to the ethnic minority, not just random Irish people on the move. In an Irish context, 'itinerant' sounds outdated and rude. I'm no expert, but I think, in Ireland anyway, there is little or no overlap between Travellers and Roma people.
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Jan 15, 2024 10:46
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credburn posted:What do you call someone in that weird category of folklore/mythology since Romani and Gypsy are both off the table? Travelers? I've heard them called that. If it's a piece of old folklore referring to a specific historical group of nomadic people where they /are/ being used as a stand in for "wandering thieves and murders"? Rewrite the story and replace those characters with a bunch of rampaging assholes returning from the crusades or literally the fae or something. Are you writing an RPG or fantasy novel featuring a group of nomadic traders and odd job men? Make up a name that does not sound like "Romani", don't make them either more magic than average or less trustworthy than average, don't add any of the real trappings of Romani or Irish Traveller culture, and before you do any of that hire a cultural sensitivity consultant familiar with both to run your ideas past /before/ your gently caress it all up. Pookah posted:If you want to refer specifically to the Irish subset, "Travellers", or "Irish Travellers", is uncontroversial. Capitalising the T in traveller helps make it clear you're referring to the ethnic minority, not just random Irish people on the move. Splicer has a new favorite as of 11:51 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 11:43
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Stayne Falls posted:I'm now genuinely confused as to what terms are not offensive to describe these people. That one just seems so neutrally descriptive from my ignorant perspective. As a general rule of thumb for referring to /any/ social, economic, medical, or ethnic group, nouned adjectives/verbs or any short descriptor for a wide group of people is a minefield. "People who do thing" is pretty safe, "Thingers" is probably bad. There's complicated language reasons for it: basically, people are not defined by a single aspect of themselves, and that's basically the definition of othering. "Greg is black" vs "Greg is a black" is a pretty clear example of the difference. "Greg has black skin" is even less loaded again, because you're being very clear that you're only describing one aspect of the many things that make Greg Greg. Apply the same logic to everything and you're pretty safe, and at worst you'll sound like you're trying. "Greg's is travelling" or "Greg is a member of the itinerant community" will get you laughed at good naturedly, "Greg's a <thing you didn't know was a slur>" is not a great first impression. Greg's a member of the <slur> community" will still make everyone go quiet but comes with a built in "dude's trying he's just ignorant" so you'll probably just get a quick "oh dude no that's very incorrect" unless you say it with a big poo poo eating grin or there's someone looking for an excuse. Splicer has a new favorite as of 12:28 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 12:18
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How offensive is "Tinker"?
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Jan 15, 2024 12:27
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Splicer posted:Traveller is on the way out, Member of the Travelling Community is paperwork standard. The problem is that, like with every scapegoat minority, each new word for Traveller eventually becomes a slur because it starts being used as one. Good to know, thanks 
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Jan 15, 2024 12:32
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FreudianSlippers posted:How offensive is "Tinker"? Dunno about T- and Romani, and I think Irish Travellers in the UK take G*psy more seriously. This is why me typing this has been a nightmare of dodging slurs. Typing g*psy while discussing Irish Travellers feels weird because it's like typing "n*gro". Yeah don't call people that but it's too weird and old-timey feeling to feel like a star-worthy slur.* Meanwhile in context of the Roma people it's like yeah stop typing hate crimes you poo poo. Meanwhile I don't even know what to type for T- because /you don't even think about that loving word I'm the context of Irish Travellers what the gently caress is wrong with you/ but yeah I'll happily tinker with this layout for you. *wait poo poo is it? I don't exactly type it much. Oh no I am the media who's not aging well. Splicer has a new favorite as of 12:51 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 12:43
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Pookah posted:Good to know, thanks
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Jan 15, 2024 12:49
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Splicer posted:Yeah this stuff is very generational. You're tail end gen-x iirc? I'm an elder millennial and "Traveller" is on the verge of being uncomfortable because I was just in time to hear the start of people using That Tone when saying it. Yeah, right at the end of Gen-X. It's lovely, because to my ears "Traveller" sounds perfectly polite compared to the commonly heard slurs of my youth 
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Jan 15, 2024 12:58
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I've never used that word as a noun in my life but now that I've learned it's a slur I'm mad as hell I can't use it as a noun
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Jan 15, 2024 12:59
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FreudianSlippers posted:How offensive is "Tinker"? it makes my Irish Traveller blood go all Smiley.
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Jan 15, 2024 13:04
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Lego Star Wars creator Traveller's Tales is about to be run over the coals Edit: Huh, the source of the creature in their logo is actually kind of interesting. CJacobs has a new favorite as of 14:38 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 14:31
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Dave Syndrome posted:Oh, absolutely. I was just responding to the "I think they were called Sinto" comment to confirm that yes, some do use the word Sinto (singular) or Sinti (plural) to refer to their group. for sure, i didn;t mean it as a callout or anything, just adding some context from the former iron curtain. identities are tricky things.
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Jan 15, 2024 16:06
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CJacobs posted:Lego Star Wars creator Traveller's Tales is about to be run over the coals name a bigger downgrade 
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Jan 15, 2024 16:16
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repiv posted:name a bigger downgrade I associate the old Traveller's Tales logo with Rascal so maybe its better for the brand that they changed
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Jan 15, 2024 16:21
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repiv posted:name a bigger downgrade While the old logo was more visually impressive, there is an elegent simplicity in the double-T logo that makes it easy to recreate in the lego game intros. Plus the old font is a bit odd with the double-slashes on the Ts. And it's a bit odd to have the logo be a character to an unreleased game that has since become very similar to another long-eared video game character by a completely different developer. Ultimately, while the older logo looked better, the newer one worked out better in the long run.
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Jan 15, 2024 16:30
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I would absolutely listen to the left one's fantasy heavy metal band and not the right one's mathcore band
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Jan 15, 2024 17:01
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FreudianSlippers posted:How offensive is "Tinker"? Arivia posted:it makes my Irish Traveller blood go all Smiley. Wait, this wasn't a Wheel of Time reference?
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Jan 15, 2024 17:59
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the_steve posted:Wait, this wasn't a Wheel of Time reference? I was referencing the Le Carre novel.
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Jan 15, 2024 18:01
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the_steve posted:Wait, this wasn't a Wheel of Time reference? Jordan didn't do to bad of a job with them, all things considered.
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Jan 15, 2024 18:30
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the_steve posted:Wait, this wasn't a Wheel of Time reference? A tinker was a blacksmith that specialized in soft metals, mostly tin. Stuff like pots, pans and utensils. There wasn't a big call for that in most villages so they usually wandered from village to village when roads were clear in order to save enough to survive the winter. By necessity, Roma and Irish Travellers would have some skill in the area and offer the services when they passed near a town. So eventually the term started meaning both.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:02
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FreudianSlippers posted:How offensive is "Tinker"? There's some decent tinker lore in the book Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats of NIMH. The escaped rats, with their human-like intelligence, find an old tinker's caravan. He passed away on the road in a bad cold snap, but all his tiny tools for fixing and mending came in very handy for the rats.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:11
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Definitely do not call or refer to members of the Irish Travelling community as "tinkers". It's a very outdated term that is almost certainly going to cause offence. I've heard very old country people use the term when reminiscing about old times, where it was clear no offence was meant, but outside that, it sounds really bad.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:22
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wonder if disney had to change names for their Disney's Fairies movie/show that stars Tinkerbell. (who belonged to the Tinker-er fairy tribe) in certain markets
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Jan 15, 2024 20:09
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:A tinker was a blacksmith that specialized in soft metals, mostly tin. Stuff like pots, pans and utensils. There wasn't a big call for that in most villages so they usually wandered from village to village when roads were clear in order to save enough to survive the winter. Another less fraught word for this craft is "tinsmith", or sometimes "whitesmith", but it tends to refer to one who is more settled in one location. It was fairly common for journeymen in the trade to practice it on the road as described above, then establish themselves in a larger town once they were experienced. Lemniscate Blue has a new favorite as of 20:55 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 20:52
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PhazonLink posted:wonder if disney had to change names for their Disney's Fairies movie/show that stars Tinkerbell. (who belonged to the Tinker-er fairy tribe) in certain markets To be fair there, To tinker is a commonly used verb for "to generally fiddle with things and see what you can make". That particular usage doesn't have to be racially charged.
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Jan 15, 2024 21:02
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BioEnchanted posted:To be fair there, To tinker is a commonly used verb for "to generally fiddle with things and see what you can make". That particular usage doesn't have to be racially charged. Yeah, as a verb, "tinker' has no major connotations that I can think of but as a noun to describe a person or group of people, it is extremely dodgy.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:15
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Pookah posted:Yeah, as a verb, "tinker' has no major connotations that I can think of but as a noun to describe a person or group of people, it is extremely dodgy. Hell tinkerer is largely okay as a noun to describe people.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:24
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FreudianSlippers posted:How offensive is "Tinker"? The proper term is Jenn Aiel, or Tuatha'an. Even in the books "Tinkers" was derogatory.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:08
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So is the phrase "not worth a tinkers drat" referring to the maker type or the problematic one? It's not something I've ever used, but I have come across it in reading. I always thought it referred to the fixes pots and pans guys. I hadn't even heard of the term having an issue before today. Pretty sure almost all Americans only know of the tinkering around meaning.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:49
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Ffs stop talking about tinkers it keeps making me think of the eerie dude in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory who says "nooobody ever goes in, and nooobody ever comes out!" then jangles away with his rickety cart (Charlie says "I think he was a tinker" to his mom, describing the encounter).
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