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I kinda get that, but I think I just chafe against the idea that Strega can have Personas they can't control (which isn't necessarily contradictory to the Jungian stuff I guess, but is woefully underexplored as an idea) and also them creating robots with artificial potential, which feels weird if Persona-users can just be anyone. The Answer actually shows how the characters gained "the potential" and it's one of the more welcome additions it makes to the story, iirc
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Jan 17, 2024 19:20
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i mean aigis doesnt have 'artificial potential,' the whole idea is they bascially created sentient robot life
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Jan 17, 2024 19:23
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I'm not saying Aigis isn't a person, I'm just saying they probably wouldn't have created her in the first place if they had a lot of other Persona-users lying around
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Jan 17, 2024 19:24
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This feels really nitpicky. I know you really dislike Persona 3 but cmon.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:28
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A megacorporation trying to build a robot to do something they already have humans doing doesn't really feel like a contradiction to me.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:29
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Why would the group decide to make a robot that can have a persona, when you have people who have Personas which are slowly killing them? Mysterious.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:30
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Arist posted:I kinda get that, but I think I just chafe against the idea that Strega can have Personas they can't control (which isn't necessarily contradictory to the Jungian stuff I guess, but is woefully underexplored as an idea) and also them creating robots with artificial potential, which feels weird if Persona-users can just be anyone. In the case of Strega, 'can't control' appears to mean 'is actively suicidal/longing for death.' They don't lose control because of The Powaaaa or anything, they lose control because they are so hosed up and traumatized that they attempt to kill themselves via magic ghost. It's even strongly implied the 'suppressant" isn't really anything more than something that fucks up your body enough to basically count as a slow suicide. (Like literally all we know about them is "taking them causes you to loving die and messes up your body") Arist posted:I'm not saying Aigis isn't a person, I'm just saying they probably wouldn't have created her in the first place if they had a lot of other Persona-users lying around P3 points out that Persona users are vanishingly rare (in the Dark Hour sense) prior to the protagonist showing up and it is their arrival that sparks everything. Strega were the only survivors of attempts to force it to happen.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:31
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Why would the group decide to make a robot that can have a persona, when you have people who have Personas which are slowly killing them? Mysterious. Plus the fact that the robot can (at least conceivably) be more easily controlled and possibly more stable than the "basically by definition kinda mentally unwell" human persona users.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:32
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Arist posted:I kinda get that, but I think I just chafe against the idea that Strega can have Personas they can't control (which isn't necessarily contradictory to the Jungian stuff I guess, but is woefully underexplored as an idea) and also them creating robots with artificial potential, which feels weird if Persona-users can just be anyone. I don't think it's ever elaborated on what artificially giving someone a persona actually entailed. Just that they rounded up 100 homeless children and did something to them and 97 of them died and the remaining 3 developed personas. And, since by the time you get to the 97th dead kid you've clearly given up on anything even resembling ethics, the logical inference you can make here is that "artificially inducing a persona" is really just a euphemism for "torturing someone until they either manifest their persona or die".
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Jan 17, 2024 19:47
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My issue with it might also be more that I have broader problems with all the robot stuff, but I don't really care to unpack that right now.ImpAtom posted:In the case of Strega, 'can't control' appears to mean 'is actively suicidal/longing for death.' They don't lose control because of The Powaaaa or anything, they lose control because they are so hosed up and traumatized that they attempt to kill themselves via magic ghost. It's even strongly implied the 'suppressant" isn't really anything more than something that fucks up your body enough to basically count as a slow suicide. (Like literally all we know about them is "taking them causes you to loving die and messes up your body") The problem isn't necessarily that these plot points exist, it's that some of these ideas don't feel meaningfully connected in the story itself. My issue is that a lot of very basic information has to be inferred here, and not in a way that I find fun to inspect and interpret and theorize about, but instead in a way that just feels kind of vague to me, like the writers couldn't really answer those questions either. It's compounded by Strega not being terribly present as characters, too. I'm not trying to mindlessly hate on the game here. As I've replayed, there's been parts that have been better than I remembered, I honestly thought a lot of what they do with Chidori was pretty good, but even there they dump her offscreen for months. The other thing is that I just hit Christmas in this playthrough so maybe all the relevant stuff is in the last thirty-seven days of the game, it's certainly possible.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:50
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I NEED YOUR HALP!
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Jan 17, 2024 20:34
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Strega also just.. doesn't do anything. They just. Exist, and one of them is there to give Junpei character development. Also Tactica is pretty fun. Not a particularly deep game but I'm at the fourth kingdom. It is very funny that both spinoffs feature the Thieves having to be saved by the first adults since 2 to actually manifest personas and I kinda dig both of them.
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Jan 17, 2024 21:13
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PlasticAutomaton posted:Strega also just.. doesn't do anything. They just. Exist, and one of them is there to give Junpei character development. I find it very funny that their respective personas are Jean Veljean and loving Che Guevara
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Jan 17, 2024 21:17
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PlasticAutomaton posted:Strega also just.. doesn't do anything. They just. Exist, and one of them is there to give Junpei character development. they also kill shinjiro but you're right in that they don't show up often enough also, i think their already limited presence is undercut by the fact that you never actually fight all 3 of them at once, and every strega boss fight is really easy and happens like, halfway through something else you were already doing, so they show up and you're like "oh it's these guys again" and then you literally like 2 round the resulting fight and move on immediately
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Jan 17, 2024 21:23
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Strega is hilariously effective TBH. Takaya kills not one but two of the main party members by loving shooting them (even if Junpei gets a 1up.). Not any magic bullshit, not any dramatic caught out of nowhere, he just loving shoots them with his gun. Dude is arguably more effective outside of the Dark Hours with his power of This Gun I Found versus with his Persona. That said they've released screenshots showing new Strega scenes in Reload so maybe that'll help.
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Jan 17, 2024 21:25
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PlasticAutomaton posted:Strega also just.. doesn't do anything. They just. Exist, and one of them is there to give Junpei character development. Strega is the cool edgy mall goth group that I desperately wanted to be a part of in the late 00s
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Jan 17, 2024 22:01
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Strega was cool. It had the nerd, the goth, the creepy guy, and way back had the trench coat guy. It's basically my friends group from high school.
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Jan 17, 2024 22:18
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Speaking of nerds Ikutsuki is such a nothing villain lol
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Jan 17, 2024 22:19
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P3's plot has way too many elements that just don't seem to mix together particularly well because they're half-baked and are expanded upon elsewhere. Strega and what "artificial persona users" even means, the sheer level of technology at play yet it takes place -specifically- in the 00s, the anti-persona drugs that end up being possibly an easily-misread metaphor for psychiatric meds, that the Kirijo group is fine with putting this entire thing in the hands of teenagers with almost no oversight and also the teenagers have to pay for their own equipment.
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Jan 17, 2024 22:26
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Neeksy posted:P3's plot has way too many elements that just don't seem to mix together particularly well because they're half-baked and are expanded upon elsewhere. Eh, at least a good chunk of that can be boiled down to "It's anime, Jim" and in particular radically advanced technology and SMT go together like chocolate and peanut butter. Edit: Like it's worth recalling that P3 occurs in the same world as P2 which had piloted mecha suits that connected your brain directly to the robot. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 22:43
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Neeksy posted:P3's plot has way too many elements that just don't seem to mix together particularly well because they're half-baked and are expanded upon elsewhere. I feel like the last part is just the one thing I reflect back on after playing P3P like why were the adults and the entire big company just OK with kids fighting shadows in the first place beyond its anime reasons?
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Jan 17, 2024 22:47
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Alder posted:I feel like the last part is just the one thing I reflect back on after playing P3P like why were the adults and the entire big company just OK with kids fighting shadows in the first place beyond its anime reasons? This actually gets brought up by Mitsuru's dad: There is literally nobody else who can. He feels like absolute poo poo about it but without a Persona you can't actually effectively fight Shadows, since you need to be able to exist in the Dark Hour (where all electronics stop working except for custom-designed rare stuff like Aigis or Mitsuru's motorcycle) and have the capability to fight the monsters there. Like yeah in theory you could send some guys with guns and grenades in but it's implied that regular guns don't do poo poo without a Persona behind them, which is why Aigis needs one in the first place. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 22:51
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ImpAtom posted:Eh, at least a good chunk of that can be boiled down to "It's anime, Jim" and in particular radically advanced technology and SMT go together like chocolate and peanut butter. P2 is about how a series of rumors and conspiracy theories spin out of control once confirmation bias becomes actual reality for everyone. By the time you get to the super-wacked-out stuff like the mecha suits, mass hysteria has long since broken out and peoples' fantasies are becoming real. It's why there's freakin' aliens at one point.
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Jan 17, 2024 23:07
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Neeksy posted:P2 is about how a series of rumors and conspiracy theories spin out of control once confirmation bias becomes actual reality for everyone. By the time you get to the super-wacked-out stuff like the mecha suits, mass hysteria has long since broken out and peoples' fantasies are becoming real. It's why there's freakin' aliens at one point. There were robots were in Persona 1 too. And in the other SMT games. Because it's a weird cyberpunk world even if the most recent stuff has trended towards just Modern World. Edit: Also like I hate to keep pointing to it, but "Suddenly super-advanced robots" is absolutely a thing that happened in Jojo, at least this one wasn't a Nazi. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 23:12
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AlphaKeny1 posted:Strega is the cool edgy mall goth group that I desperately wanted to be a part of in the late 00s goths still existed in late 2000s??? they hadn't transitioned into emos yet?
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Jan 17, 2024 23:19
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YaketySass posted:Speaking of nerds Ikutsuki is such a nothing villain lol I've said this before, but Ikutsuki is actually too effective a villain to be entertaining. He's the party's main source of info - which he successfully uses to keep the party hoodwinked for half of the game. He also knows Strega have a grudge against him, so he makes sure his name never comes up around them and he's never seen by them, so the only thing that might have made them interesting antagonists only comes up after they've been annoying and worthless for over 100 hours. On the other hand, when he reveals himself as a villain his plan... makes as much sense as anything else, but has absolutely nothing to do with anything the mouthpiece of his god says later. What Ryoji explains seems to completely preclude anything ikutsuki ranted about from being true. Ikutsuki was portrayed much better in P4AU - where a recreation of him gets to actually get some decent villain speeches, gets as a punching bag by another of his abused children - who also craves to show off in front of the only dad he knew, and the thought that he might be back somehow keeps the Shadow Operatives on edge despite the clear impossibility of it.
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Jan 17, 2024 23:43
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MightyPretenders posted:I've said this before, but Ikutsuki is actually too effective a villain to be entertaining. He's the party's main source of info - which he successfully uses to keep the party hoodwinked for half of the game. He also knows Strega have a grudge against him, so he makes sure his name never comes up around them and he's never seen by them, so the only thing that might have made them interesting antagonists only comes up after they've been annoying and worthless for over 100 hours. Ikutsuki's thing is that his plan was based entirely off a flawed assumption, which is that he would be the 'prince' and would rule over the world of The Lost as a new God. He had this entire plan ready to go and didn't realize that he'd completely fumbled what the actual intent of the prophecy. Ikutsuki was in it for power while Nyx isn't really a 'power' thing. It's just an end. It's like the "reaping/sowing' tweet except the reaping is done via grim.
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Jan 17, 2024 23:51
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Meowywitch posted:goths still existed in late 2000s??? they hadn't transitioned into emos yet? yeah evanescence was 2003 and black parade was 2006 so you're probably right but idk if japan had emo and rawr XD kids so we get a generic gothic lolita girl instead AlphaKeny1 fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 23:54
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Goth never died.
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Jan 17, 2024 23:55
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ImpAtom posted:Ikutsuki's thing is that his plan was based entirely off a flawed assumption, which is that he would be the 'prince' and would rule over the world of The Lost as a new God. He had this entire plan ready to go and didn't realize that he'd completely fumbled what the actual intent of the prophecy. Ikutsuki was in it for power while Nyx isn't really a 'power' thing. It's just an end. i actually like ikutsuki as a villain conceptually and i think the main problem with him is that he just dies right away the instant after it's revealed that he's a villain. doesn't even turn into a big monster you fight or anything, mitsuru's dad shoots him and his big human sacrifice isn't working out so he just goes "welp" and jumps off a building. no catharsis whatsoever, just a big reveal and then exit pursued by bear
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Jan 17, 2024 23:56
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They should make Ikutsuki cuter unironically. Old men are in style nowadays
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Jan 17, 2024 23:59
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Goth never died. ive been to so many legit goth themed things the past few years whereas all emo stuff is just feels like throwbacks now. also somewhat related, i found that gen z seems to refer to most metal/goth/alt/screaming music as emo despite not actually being emo... because they did not grow up with those sub genres/scenes and spotify doesnt seem to help. it gets confusing when you say something is metalcore but they describe it as emo and "core" denotes an aesthetic like barbiecore and not hardcore music. so to a young person a lot of alt culture from then might as well be emo, since something like evanescense is 'emotional' anyway what im trying to say is that strega is the cool group, especially compared to SEES.
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Jan 18, 2024 00:24
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Y'know I can figure out why they put Shinjiro into Moon in P3P; he joins so late that it doesn't make much sense to switch out the Old Couple for him who are otherwise an early-game link you can work on when your school links are busy. Still not sure why they put Akihiko into Star rather than Emperor; he's also available early so he's not conflicting with Hidetoshi time, so it's really just giving you some extra time to work on Star instead of the couple months you'd have to wait to start Mamoru's link instead (and it's balanced out by them putting Strength later in Koromaru rather than the early-game Yuko).
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Jan 18, 2024 01:10
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They gave Moon and Star to Shinji and Akihiko because they already knew they were getting rid of the original Moon and Star, I think that's probably the simplest explanation
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Jan 18, 2024 01:16
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isnt the couple hierophant??? or is there another old couple
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Jan 18, 2024 01:20
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ImpAtom posted:Ikutsuki's thing is that his plan was based entirely off a flawed assumption, which is that he would be the 'prince' and would rule over the world of The Lost as a new God. He had this entire plan ready to go and didn't realize that he'd completely fumbled what the actual intent of the prophecy. Ikutsuki was in it for power while Nyx isn't really a 'power' thing. It's just an end. Think they'll keep in part where he forgets to crucify Koromaru?
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Jan 18, 2024 01:21
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Meowywitch posted:isnt the couple hierophant??? or is there another old couple No, that's right. Old Couple are the Hierophant in both versions. The MaleMC's Moon social link is the scam cultist kid.
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Jan 18, 2024 01:35
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  mods are asleep, post small yusuke
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Jan 18, 2024 02:11
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Meowywitch posted:isnt the couple hierophant??? or is there another old couple Yeah, Shinjiro’s Arcana is actually Hierophant, but if they kept that as his SL it would mean you wouldn’t be able to start it til September.
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Jan 18, 2024 02:12
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ImpAtom posted:There were robots were in Persona 1 too. And in the other SMT games. Because it's a weird cyberpunk world even if the most recent stuff has trended towards just Modern World. yeah the first smt had super advanced for the 90s arm computers, and even further back was the demon summoning program (basically a programming miracle by a very angry nerd) megaten loving Loves advanced tech!!!
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Jan 18, 2024 02:52
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