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Ive been employee … 16? something like that. I got 0.5% which was i think closer to normal for that time (~10 yrs ago)
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Jan 18, 2024 05:05
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Stupid question: What happens if you say, "I'll forgo all equity for $BigWage upfront"?
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Jan 18, 2024 05:35
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Quackles posted:Stupid question: What happens if you say, "I'll forgo all equity for $BigWage upfront"? they either accept it or they don’t
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Jan 18, 2024 05:52
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rotor posted:Ive been employee … 16? something like that. I got 0.5% which was i think closer to normal for that time (~10 yrs ago) i got 0.3 as employee ~20 about a decade ago, and 0.7 more recently as either the first or second (hr and i started the same day) full time employee outside the founders. i might have pushed for more than 0.7, but they brought me on at 170 cash with a bump past 200 within a couple months, so i didn't push for more equity. maybe before our next round i'll ask for a little more. they also gave me a loan secured by my stock, allowing me a no-risk tax-free early exercise, so that was nice.
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Jan 18, 2024 05:53
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At a seed stage company the number of shares and percentage of the company the shares you'd get awarded IS ambiguous for multiple reasons. Those reasons are: - Youre gonna get diluted in future rounds - Whether or not they raised their seed money on pre/most money valuation instruments ...and prob other reasons I cant immediately recall So that they cant tell you what % youll own is a fairly reasonable thign depending on circumstances. If you want to understand this stuff this is the book to read/listen to: https://www.amazon.com/Venture-Deals-Smarter-Lawyer-Capitalist/dp/1119594820 TBH if someone only ~kinda~ understands this stuff, negotiating on these points is gonna make them look uninformed. By focusing on what % they own they focus on the wrong thing, IMO. Figure out the valuation and how many shares then make up a number (straight from your rear end) as to how much you think the exit valuation is and thats the best you can do. You're gonna get diluted like crazy if they go the distance and theyre gonna award you more shares maybe so this "I once owned 1%!" thought that people have because they watched shark tank three times is not serving them well. When Cuban buys a 33% for $xM, he already has done this math and theyre keeping it simple for TV viewers. WHen founders raise mone they do it $amount contrib@valuation...none of this % of the company talk. For example raising "2 on 20 post" means raising $2M at a $20M post money valuation. In that case its 10% of the company at seed, but unless that investor reups in future rounds, they'll no longer own 10%. And if they raised at a "pre money valuation" itd be more like 9%. See why they cant tell you? CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 06:49
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v good post, but i think in this dude's specific situation it is worth attempting to resolve the order of magnitude ambiguity. it could be a signal that the founders are trying to gently caress him, as founders have been known to do
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Jan 18, 2024 06:58
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bob dobbs is dead posted:what number hire would you be? 0.2% is perfectly reasonable for number 250 and not for number 3 theres no loving way ab IC employee #250 is getting 0.2% unless they’re a strategic hire or partner at an accounting firm by the time you’re at 250 employees you’re raising the kind of money that makes you able to pay real salaries or you’re not a startup in which case you’re prob not offering equity at all this is lotto tickets and the thing OP should care about is number of them and buying them cheap enough to get a good return edit: a typical series A option pool is 0-15% with 10% seeming to be the median and mode. so you can only give 50 people 0.2% if you were handing out chunks like that CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 07:30
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yeah, 0.2% is a lot for 250th. perfectly reasonable for the employee, who's getting a huge-for-250th-employee slice 250 peeps isn't even series A lol. more like series C or something bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 07:35
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bob dobbs is dead posted:yeah, 0.2% is a lot for 250th. perfectly reasonable for the employee, who's getting a huge-for-250th-employee slice the option pools tend (not always) to get topped up with subsequent rounds, but the point remains the same OP is in a weird negotiating spot cause he focused on the wrong metrics. what % do you own is nearly a vanity metric
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Jan 18, 2024 07:51
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while i do think its important to get a good deal and/or know if they're tryin to screw you I think the stock options get way too much focus unless you're really convinced the company is Really Going Places. They're lottery tickets that will more likely than not end up being worthless.
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Jan 18, 2024 07:55
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it's not vanity, but "are these gonna be worth any money" is almost entirely determined by: 1. will they succeed 2. will they gently caress you if they succeed 1. is the more important determination, but 2. seems to be a yes, in this case, anyways
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Jan 18, 2024 07:57
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bob dobbs is dead posted:it's not vanity, but "are these gonna be worth any money" is almost entirely determined by: it is because it’s the number you tell your mom and other people but it doesn’t allow OP to understand the value and because it tends to bring in this emotional component that ends with OP and other posters projecting their feelings on what’s always a nuanced situation the number that matters is 40,000 tickets at $.10 is a much better deal than the same a $0.50
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Jan 18, 2024 08:02
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i was number 250 something and came in around series E now have 4 interviews on the calendar. hopefully someone will hire my dumb rear end, but first i need to convince them i'm smart.
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Jan 18, 2024 08:08
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little off track from startup but I was prospective employee #5 at a husband-wife design engineering firm (working out of an office attached to their house, no less). first EE there, too offered me $10k less than I was making with abysmal benefits and got a flat no when I asked if equity was on the table. Buddy you want me to take a pay cut to work at your family firm where the only carrot is that you super swear that you want to pay me better later?
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Jan 18, 2024 11:57
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CarForumPoster posted:See why they cant tell you? This makes sense, but the bigger issue is really this: DELETE CASCADE posted:v good post, but i think in this dude's specific situation it is worth attempting to resolve the order of magnitude ambiguity. it could be a signal that the founders are trying to gently caress him, as founders have been known to do Dilution is going to make it so the percentage isn't actually X%. But if my lottery tickets are already reduced an order of magnitude in value out the gate from what the founder implies they're worth, I'm not really happy with the deal. Likewise, they couldn't tell me the cost to exercise the shares or a valuation. They were very short on any sort of numbers to help me understand anything about the offer, other than lots of "lawyers need to figure it out." I accept that things have amorphous edges and you can't commit to things in case you're wrong. But when you can't tell me how much the lottery tickets will cost or whether they're worth X or X/10 it does not instill confidence. In your $0.50 vs $0.10 question, I still don't know which I'm getting there either.
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Jan 18, 2024 14:40
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The founder shouldn’t be setting the valuation it should come from a 409a which is typically much lower than the seed valuation. EDIT: Also the founder implying theyre worth anything now....I mean theyre worth what you can sell them for and while some hot companies have a secondary market so you can sell half your shares at Series C or something, most don't ever make it there. I'd be singing a different tune if they were just post a good Series A, but most seed companies never get there. CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 14:50
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i simply work for publicly traded companies op
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Jan 18, 2024 14:59
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Captain Foo posted:i simply work for publicly traded companies op
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Jan 18, 2024 15:37
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Captain Foo posted:i simply work for publicly traded companies op
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Jan 18, 2024 17:11
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Captain Foo posted:i simply work for publicly traded companies op
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Jan 18, 2024 17:23
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I should try that
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Jan 18, 2024 17:27
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yeah me too, all my equity is in various stages of liquidity none of which let me sell when I would actually like to
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Jan 19, 2024 00:22
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If the options are worthless then they should be fine offering me more
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Jan 19, 2024 05:29
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champagne posting posted:All organizations have two kinds of political structures: formal and informal. Formal structures are the big org chart with ceo at the top and then a mass of middle managers with us plebs at the bottom. Informal structures can be whatever. agree with this post, every time i have been in an "flat" structure there is always an unspoken hierarchy, this job seems like a good candidate for asking the interviewers what projects they worked throughout the year and what a day in the life looks like - my current job is "flat" but actually everyone works very rigid roles despite language to the contrary
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Jan 21, 2024 17:56
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If you need the equity to be worth something to meet your total comp requirements, then they need to sell you on why it is. If valuing the equity at $0 still gets you to total comp, then you're playing with house money and maybe you care less. Even if you know you're going to take whatever they offer you because the market sucks, etc, light negotiation is unlikely to lose you the offer. Sometimes it's easy to increase equity, sometimes it's easy to increase base comp, sometimes they can give you more PTO or whatever. Tell them you're looking for a competitive total comp package and whether their current offer qualifies and then see what they come back with perhaps.
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Jan 21, 2024 21:18
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Hey thread, can anyone give me some advice on how to negotiate in a situation where the company claim I have some blindspots? I haven't said a number, but they have (135K), "the median for the salary band (due to aforementioned blindspots)". I am just before an offer for a senior dev title, they're just checking references. It's a 50-people fintech firm, I've met the CEO, CTO, and software lead, and have passed the final culture fit or company vision alignment check. The hiring manager said they would review the salary in a few months of employment, but I want to either maximise what I get now or get in writing that the mid-year review would correct the salary deficiency (not sure this is a good strategy). The blindspots they identified:
I think the frontend point is the most legitimate, I acknowledged it was one of the reasons I was looking at them because I wanted some more experience in that area, but otherwise cloud is cloud is cloud. In both cases I'm confident that I could adapt quickly to the job requirements. I will take 135, it's a big step up from what I get now and the job sounds interesting, but I would like to get more if I can. Other than saying I don't think the blindspots are as serious as they think they are, how would you go about phrasing a request for a higher salary in this case? What can I focus on or argue effectively to tip the scale up? How far can I push it politely without scaring someone away? And possibly relevant to my bargaining position is how much they like me as a candidate. I had applied for a mid-level role first, just wanting a change. At the time I had to wait three months on my current contract and that was unpalatable to them regardless of salary. However, they opened a senior position around the same time and thought I would be suitable despite the three-month wait. I don't think they have many other candidates. Any advice would be appreciated! Esposito fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 02:33
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Esposito posted:Hey thread, can anyone give me some advice on how to negotiate in a situation where the company claim I have some blindspots? I haven't said a number, but they have (135K), "the median for the salary band (due to aforementioned blindspots)". Congrats on getting this far. Whats your BATNA? It wont be worth much to ask for a review in 6 months in writing. I'd suggest not doing that as it comes off hostile and has likely 0 value. You need to bring some pretty sweet data if your negotiating position is simply that they've underestimated your skills, such as a demo project that proves otherwise or something. That's kinda hard to do in the time alotted. Just saying nuh uh you're wrong I know better about AWS->Azure is also not advisable. The easiest way to negotiate is to have a counter offer, thus, what's your BATNA? How far you can push depends on the person. That they're in finance and told you its mid band seems like an invitation to negotiate to me so I'd not hesitate asking for offer+10% ($148,500) why that's the right number, including just starting with we're close but to move I need $X. I really like this book for this type of negotiation: https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Reason-Using-Emotions-Negotiate/dp/0143037781 CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 02:42
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I don't really have any at this stage. Although I'm interviewing with a couple of places with stated salary bands between 120K and 160K this is the only one so far that feels close to an offer. So from that point of view my bargaining position is weak. I am not unhappy with my current role and it is stress-free, but the salary is so much lower that I would never reject the current offer. In that case, is it best to just accept? Can I say I would be happier if we could meet closer to 150K and see what they do?quote:That they're in finance and told you its mid band seems like an invitation to negotiate to me so I'd not hesitate asking for offer+10% ($148,500) why that's the right number, including just starting with we're close but to move I need $X.
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Jan 26, 2024 02:50
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batna's your current salary, then, aint it
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Jan 26, 2024 02:53
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bob dobbs is dead posted:batna's your current salary, then, aint it Yes
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Jan 26, 2024 03:31
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i wish, when i was considering joining a startup, i'd asked myself how much time i was willing to spend managing the egos of a pair of twenty-somethings who have lots of authority but absolutely zero leadership experience. i don't regret my decision but i wish i'd been a little more conscious about it. (i also wish that employee #1 hadn't accepted 0.3% ownership and therefore hosed a bunch of other people over.)Esposito posted:I am just before an offer for a senior dev title, they're just checking references. It's a 50-people fintech firm, I've met the CEO, CTO, and software lead, and have passed the final culture fit or company vision alignment check. does this mean you actually applied for the senior title? because i had to deal with this once at that level and my response was "as a senior, the things you're hiring me to know are broader than the minutiae of any particular technology or stack. you can see from my resume that i've consistently picked up new stuff, and I'm confident i'll do that here." it worked, but my resume did actually say that, and idk whether yours does.
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Jan 28, 2024 15:11
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PSA: If anyone ever promises you raises/promotions in short order "after you prove yourself" they're very likely lying to you and/or have no authority to guarantee such a thing A few years back I interviewed for an Engi-3 position and ended up accepting an engi-2 position they offered me ago on the basis that it was still a significant salary step forward and according to the promoter "we're going to pay you the same as the higher position but want to be able to promote you quickly". I stayed there for 3 years and saw them slow-walk my raises to bring me back to mean ("you're the highest paid person in this position!") and promote other people with less seniority, experience, and business impact over me. Left after the 2nd straight year of being told "we're limited in the number of promotions we can hand out, maybe next year" Since then I've had 2 other prospective employers (including an insane lowball from a FAANG) try to pull that poo poo and it rings absolutely hollow to the point where I get viscerally mad when I hear a recruiter saying it. I would absolutely want that poo poo in writing with actionable, measurable metrics and advancement if I got that line these days, but like carforumposter said it absolutely will come off hostile and be a major turnoff for anyone that isn't totally dazzled by your talent.
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Jan 28, 2024 15:44
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"you can't act like promotions exist"
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Jan 28, 2024 16:42
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i’ve fallen for that bait & switch too. it’s part of being young and dumb. current job it was proposed as ‘we’re trying to build this department and you’ll be the one building it’ which turned out to be true! we were in the process of interviewing and literally about to send out offers for my first round of hires but then OOPS softbank failed and we’ve been spiraling ever since point of the story is there’s ways to tell if they mean it or not and even if they mean it it doesn’t make it real
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Jan 28, 2024 23:31
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Somebody give me a lot of money for doing nothing
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Jan 28, 2024 23:43
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PokeJoe posted:Somebody give me a lot of money for doing nothing you sound like middle management material kid
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Jan 28, 2024 23:52
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PokeJoe posted:Somebody give me a lot of money for doing nothing sorry im already filling that position
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Jan 29, 2024 00:13
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Do u need a apprentice
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Jan 29, 2024 00:19
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anyone who posts all week instead of working is my apprentice.
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Jan 29, 2024 00:30
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raminasi posted:does this mean you actually applied for the senior title?... but my resume did actually say that, and idk whether yours does.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:44
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