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It already takes a ridiculous amount of iron gears to keep one blue belt assembler running so that's usually what I aim for - I think it ends up being about 2 blue belts of iron plates to make belts and about double that to make undergrounds (including the red and yellow that go into it). You can/should reduce this with moduled gear assemblers, which gets the total input for both combined under 4 blue belts. That's moving 180 iron plate per second and bots are going to struggle to do that - if you have an average flight time of say 2 seconds and each bot carries 4 plates, that's 90 bots in the air at any given time which is going to need about a dozen roboports to keep charged.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:16
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How high volume are we talking? You should only be considering alternatives if you've got a bunch of assemblers making the same item. If it's just one or two, then no. If you use individual storage chests, you can set the filter to the item produced and that way any time the item gets put back into the system (trash slots, deconstruction) it will go back into that chest rather than taking up generic storage which is a nice thing to have. You definitely need/should look into the additional paste settings mod if you're setting up a bot mall, it saves a ton of time.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:19
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+1 to additional paste settings. Also note with K2 they have small roboports that really just exist for extra charging (no bots can live there). So that's one way to help with that a bit.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:20
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Bhodi posted:How high volume are we talking? You should only be considering alternatives if you've got a bunch of assemblers making the same item. If it's just one or two, then no. I'm still running a basic base with yellow belts and just starting to build a rocket silo, so 'high volume' is very relative, im certainly not cranking out thousands of blue belts at this point but it makes sense to me to keep the stuff that will need tons of throughput later separate from now on so its not something I need to change in the future. For your storage chests, are you saying my inputs from the bus to the bot mall should be yellow chests, my outputs from my assemblers should be yellows, or both? I can see how both would be helpful, and it'd be easy to make the change. I assume instead of limiting slots in my output chests I'd wire the output inserter to turn off if theres more than X of the item in the chest so deconstructed stuff can land back in the output instead of somewhere else?
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Jan 17, 2024 19:25
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meowmeowmeowmeow posted:When building a bot-mall do you keep a separate belt fed production zone for high volume logistics stuff like belts, splitters, rails, etc to keep throughput high? Multiple assemblers in the bot mall and tons of logi bots to keep stuff moving? RN I'm setting up the bot mall with all the inputs belts going into a passive provider warehouse with circuit controlled filter inserters to load goods, then doing your standard bot assemblers for everything and im not sure if I should throw my belts and rails into this or keep it separate. I've usually made my bot-malls just 100% bots and when I have a bottle-neck just add more assemblers for the bottleneck item, but in the past I have definitely used belt-based 'support' assemblers making high-volume things like gears. But mostly I just default to lazy and paste down more copies of whatever item I need more of in the bot mall itself.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:34
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Thanks so much for the in depth help all!Bhodi posted:If you want to mess with grid isolation but local bot logistics IMO, you should try heavily using factorissimo instead and isolate within each individual factory. Unless you're doing a "no bot" run, be aware that grid isolation entirely removes the ability to get materials across cells without using the train and is kneecapping yourself. The "edge transit box" does not scale to a city/grid system and without a mod that allows you to toggle between "local" and "remote" logistic networks, this is very much an either/or situation so it's important to understand what you are sacrificing if you want to use isolated networks. Man Factorissimo looks cool but it feels so... cheaty? to me. I guess with biters off there is absolutely 0 challenge to getting more space so it really is more of an organizational thing... I should try it but it keeps looking very OP every time I look at it. I think I'd really feel like it was cheating early on in a biters on run? quote:tl;dr if you don't want to do your own math and considerations, go with 1-2 trains and either a 2x2 or 3x3 roboport size with 2 lanes and parallel on/off spurs. It's a good balance between size and usability to start with and the throughput is enough to complete all advanced modpacks (k2, space exploration, seablock, etc). What are spurs? quote:How many train spots will you need? If you don't have a good multi-use station you'll need to account for multiple stops per cell. This is something I think I am choking up at when I look at designing trains more complicated than just single ore to smelter loops. How do you handle delivering multiple resources to one block? Do you really have separate stops for each ingredient? Or do I have to design filtered trains that make loops to all the spots it needs to fill it up? This feels really clunky to do with vanilla trains, which is why things like LTN exist I guess? quote:if you're designing your own layout, steal a top-rated intersection from https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?f=194&t=100614 that fits your needs. This is going to determine your max throughput of your base overall, you'll need to do the math on train number/minute times number of wagons to get your max cell input/output. I believe we used the "Super compact Celtic knot". That seems suprisingly small if you are working with ~ 100x100 in a block. I guess it is because you have to account for having padding of 6x[# of cars in a train] for every exit? So in reality, a 42x42 intersection turns into 42+5x6x2 = 102 of space needed for a 1-4 train? What are the units on the score here? Avg trains per minute it can sustain across the different sets? quote:Additional note: the base assumption of city grids are that your blocks are square but they don't have to be. Rectangular blocks and designs that input/output from specifically the top/bottom might be a better fit. Will keep in mind. What I don't like was the offset brick thing that I was trying for. Yeah it let me only do 3 way intersections, but as it shows in your link above those are more constrained and I hated having to think about the offsetting. I used the chunk aligned power poles and roboports mod this time, if I stick with that then a 2x2 roboport gets full logistic coverage for 128x128, and I think that is good enough for me for my ambitions. I'm not even sure what kind of megabase the Steam Deck is capable of running.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:36
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meowmeowmeowmeow posted:For your storage chests, are you saying my inputs from the bus to the bot mall should be yellow chests, my outputs from my assemblers should be yellows, or both? I can see how both would be helpful, and it'd be easy to make the change. I assume instead of limiting slots in my output chests I'd wire the output inserter to turn off if theres more than X of the item in the chest so deconstructed stuff can land back in the output instead of somewhere else? This is how I limit pretty much everything. I use yellow chests with the inserter wired to it to shut off if the single item allowed in the chest exceeds a threshold. That way when I upgrade 100 blue assemblers to yellow, all those blue assemblers just flow back into the yellow output chest of the assembler that makes blue assemblers.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:36
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Thanks for the tips guys! I've got a mall set up already, so have plenty of capacity for miners, rails, belts, inserters, and robots, and I'm done with non-space research too. So I'm thinking I'll set up a completely separate beacon/module "factory" just to get that up and running, and then moving completely to trains and megabase setups, starting from smelting and moving up. It's great to have a plan, and I look forward to dealing with all the wrinkles and messups it entails.
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Jan 17, 2024 20:03
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Chin Strap posted:Thanks so much for the in depth help all! And yes, LTN/Cybersyn is not mandatory but is highly, highly recommended if you want to keep your sanity. Plus, it's something new to figure out and some light circuit work to design a "universal" station. The expectation is being able to "request" a specific amount of material that the system will try and provide by pulling from provider stations in the network, similar to logistics bots. Getting there can be it's own design challenge, especially if you want stations to be able to provide one material and supply another, or multiple liquids, or both types at the same time, and store an appropriate amount to keep your factory running, etc. factorissimo's gain when it comes to organization and reduced travel time / factory size is heavily offset by having to manage the input/outputs and space constraints which can get surprisingly tricky. Some might think of it as a bit cheaty but if you get deep into using them you'll find they have their own logistical challenges, where an entire chain won't fit in a single one so you then need to decide how to separate them, and then route the belts and pipes properly. It's absolutely a tradeoff most of the time, not even considering the research and materials to make the factorissimo building itself. quote:For your storage chests, are you saying my inputs from the bus to the bot mall should be yellow chests, my outputs from my assemblers should be yellows, or both? I can see how both would be helpful, and it'd be easy to make the change. I assume instead of limiting slots in my output chests I'd wire the output inserter to turn off if theres more than X of the item in the chest so deconstructed stuff can land back in the output instead of somewhere else? Bhodi fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 20:27
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meowmeowmeowmeow posted:When building a bot-mall do you keep a separate belt fed production zone for high volume logistics stuff like belts, splitters, rails, etc to keep throughput high? Multiple assemblers in the bot mall and tons of logi bots to keep stuff moving? RN I'm setting up the bot mall with all the inputs belts going into a passive provider warehouse with circuit controlled filter inserters to load goods, then doing your standard bot assemblers for everything and im not sure if I should throw my belts and rails into this or keep it separate. A good mall supports burst demand over max sustainable throughput. Use lots and lots of buffer chests, bot everything, and don't worry about it. celestial teapot fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 22:15
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Bhodi posted:factorissimo's gain when it comes to organization and reduced travel time / factory size is heavily offset by having to manage the input/outputs and space constraints which can get surprisingly tricky. Some might think of it as a bit cheaty but if you get deep into using them you'll find they have their own logistical challenges, where an entire chain won't fit in a single one so you then need to decide how to separate them, and then route the belts and pipes properly. It's absolutely a tradeoff most of the time, not even considering the research and materials to make the factorissimo building itself. I have also been one of those people who felt factorissimo was a little too cheaty, but if I'm being honest, hearing you frame it this way is making me reconsider. I basically already forced myself into the exact same logistical challenges by working with city blocks, so why would this be all that much different? I might explore using it on my next playthrough.
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Jan 18, 2024 02:58
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Factorissimo is good for compartmentalizing the blueprint stamping stuff you already do anyway, in exchange for giving you fixed sizes you have to fit each blueprint into. You still have to plan your space usage well, since each factory gives you limited space and limited inputs/outputs to work with, but you're planning one piece at a time rather than having to plan the entire production chain at once. For me, it's a gameplay style thing. I like to do my planning in more bite-sized pieces rather than figuring out everything before I start building. But at the same time, Factorissimo actually forces me to care more about space usage, since it incentivizes me to fit each piece into a specific size rather than just clearing/reserving a huge chunk of space and using whatever I feel like. In normal play, there's really not much incentive to build compact as long as you allow yourself enough space.  If I'd built this production line normally, it'd probably be a lot longer and thinner and more spaced out in general, but having that nicely defined box to squeeze it into encourages me to do a lot more twisting and turning as I seek to make the most of the space available. If you play with biters off and don't have to worry about defenses, then it's not really a cheat. You get infinite space either way, but it reduces the annoyance level of actually using that infinite space, getting rid of routine drudge work like clearing space or laying rails so you can focus more on building your actual production lines.
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Jan 18, 2024 07:33
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celestial teapot posted:Full belt variations Looking at this again, I realized I can get four red belts per wagon. Blueprint string
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Jan 18, 2024 17:12
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Ok now we’re cooking, it’s crowded and visually noisy but the result is elegant.
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Jan 18, 2024 20:03
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Congratulations, you reinvented the standard train unloader.
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Jan 18, 2024 21:30
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Is that commonly done? I haven't seen an unloader that pulls 4 red belts per wagon before 
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Jan 18, 2024 21:42
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K8.0 posted:Congratulations, you reinvented the standard train unloader. Side-loading splitters onto belts to unload trains has been a thing for a long time. I have screenshots of some of my unloaders from sometime in 2019 and I know for sure that I got it from someone else's screenshots because it hadn't occurred to me. Everything in a game like this gets to be rediscovered by new players, and that's not a terrible thing. I never did do two sides to one side like that, but I did a lot of 1-2 trains unloading onto 4 red belts which can easily be saturated by stack inserters side-loading splitters like that. I just cheat these days and use stack inserters into a long merged chest and then just tap off the chest with loaders.
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Jan 18, 2024 21:43
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I wish the community would post their SE cargo rocket circuitry more so I can steal it, because it's a pain in the rear end to design autonomous rocket systems. 
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Jan 18, 2024 21:48
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Teapot you’re mad
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Jan 18, 2024 21:49
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Most of the time I just go with this kind of unloading to get 1 belt from each wagon (2 if you double it up on the other side). This has the benefits of: -Works at any belt tier (higher tier belts will need stack inserters but yellow can be filled with fasts) -Can be built by hand from memory -Unloads wagons as fast as possible -Loading is just the inverse, so every station fits in the same footprint But I did at one point figure out a build that unloads 4 fully compressed blue belts from each wagon.  I'm certain this could be compacted in some way but never bothered. If you're consuming resources from trains at this rate, 4 belts per wagon is going to empty trains faster than they can arrive in the station unless you do some signal chaining shenanigans.
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Jan 18, 2024 22:02
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celestial teapot posted:Is that commonly done? I haven't seen an unloader that pulls 4 red belts per wagon before I don't think it's the UPS hit it used to be but it was memory holed so hard you won't see it till you go looking for it or reinvent it yourself.
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Jan 18, 2024 22:09
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celestial teapot posted:Is that commonly done? I haven't seen an unloader that pulls 4 red belts per wagon before It's a slick design the way it was shown above, but it's just doing the normal side-loading to splitter thing on both sides of the wagon.
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Jan 18, 2024 22:19
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zedprime posted:Inserting into splitters was verboten by the UPS police for being not optimized so you won't see it in the mass market blueprints. But you're beautiful just the same. Sadly, going from belt to train or vice versa is verboten by the UPS police. So is using red belts at all... I love focusing hard on UPS optimization and building as big as I can, but trains are fun too, you know? Unloading onto splitters doesn't do much good with blue belts I'm afraid, since you can't flood a belt that way like you can with a red belt. The 3 blue belts per wagon unloader is also quite hard to balance, so if I need fast unloading I am content with this:
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Jan 18, 2024 22:28
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SettingSun posted:I wish the community would post their SE cargo rocket circuitry more so I can steal it, because it's a pain in the rear end to design autonomous rocket systems. 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 Bhodi fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jan 19, 2024 |
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Jan 19, 2024 00:19
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Do you put lane balancers on belts after unloading from the train? Sometimes with intermittent consumption one side or the other will back up but I'm not sure if it matters if I have all the inserters for each car linked together so they swing synced up?
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Jan 19, 2024 01:10
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A lane balancer cannot increase throughput on the belt.
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Jan 19, 2024 03:21
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https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-394 e: I can already see the generic bot mall that just has a bunch of assemblers making whatever is not in stock instead of one+ assembler per item Tamba fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jan 19, 2024 |
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Jan 19, 2024 13:06
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Tamba posted:https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-394 So the main takeaway is they're going to swap the names of Stack and Bulk inserters
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Jan 19, 2024 14:10
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Yeah that makes more sense honestly. Stack inserters not being able to place full stacks seemed incorrect. Now add fast bulk inserters 
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Jan 19, 2024 14:26
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I see why they're allowing for flipping and mirroring buildings but im not sure I love it on first glance. Feels weird after having to work around set orientations of inputs/outputs for so long, but it will be nice for cleaning up fluid builds and symmetrical production zones.celestial teapot posted:A lane balancer cannot increase throughput on the belt. Thanks, I generally knew that but was concerned it could lead to uneven unloading of wagons more so than a throughput issue. I balance unloading from wiring all the inserters together and set to hand read hold with 'everything = 0' as their condition so they only swing again once every inserter has emptied its hand and I guess that keeps everything even so I don't need to worry about it?
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Jan 19, 2024 14:50
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And there we go, real mirroring of pipe buildings and circuit controlled assemblers are enough to put me off Factorio till the expansion release.
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Jan 19, 2024 15:40
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There’s a mod called crafting combinators and one I forget the name of by our very own gotlag that does mirroring fyi tho they’ll definitely be shonkier than the first class support
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Jan 19, 2024 15:43
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We're looking at fall at the earliest for the expansion. Plenty of time to factory between here and then imo
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Jan 19, 2024 15:45
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meowmeowmeowmeow posted:I see why they're allowing for flipping and mirroring buildings but im not sure I love it on first glance. Feels weird after having to work around set orientations of inputs/outputs for so long, but it will be nice for cleaning up fluid builds and symmetrical production zones. It's funny because I already use mods that allow two introduced features (blueprint flip and turn and fluid permutations) but it'll be nice for it to be integrated into the base game itself. Honestly the most useful part of the blueprint flip is being able to flip ctrl-c'd inserters with a hotkey as you're building. It's insanely convenient. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jan 19, 2024 |
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Jan 19, 2024 15:51
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I wasn't aware of the functionality but the FFF implies there's already vanilla support for flipping blueprints? Totally agree that flipping chem plants and stuff is going to be nice, but it does feel strange after doing staggered buildings and nearly but not quite symmetrical builds for so long.
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Jan 19, 2024 15:57
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You can press I think by default F and G to horizontally and vertically flip blueprints and copy/pastes. The real win will be finally being able to flip rails, that bullshit is obnoxious. Having to keep mirrored copies of non-symmetrical, directional BPs like stackers is annoying. And yeah, the assembler control changes are going to be a huge deal for bot malls. It'll be really easy to use the new logistic groups feature to set up a group of what you want your mall to keep in stock, and automatically with nothing more than a few provider and requester chests have assemblers auto-make stuff. Whenever you aren't producing enough, you just copy and paste more of the production line and everything just works. It'll kinda be magic. Rushing bots will be even more of a big deal than before. IDK if anyone will ever go purple science before orange again, though. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jan 19, 2024 |
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Jan 19, 2024 16:04
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Yeah it's been in since I think before 1.0. F by default.
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Jan 19, 2024 16:07
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meowmeowmeowmeow posted:Thanks, I generally knew that but was concerned it could lead to uneven unloading of wagons more so than a throughput issue. You're losing a lot of throughput that way. Put belt balancers after your unloading station. Check out raynquist's balancer book.
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Jan 19, 2024 17:07
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Did they say the expansion would have an early access period, or are they planning to wait until it’s complete?
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Jan 19, 2024 17:21
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Tamba posted:https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-394 Yeah the bot mall implications of being able to switch assembler recipes on the fly via circuit conditions is huge. Not sure which I'm more excited for: the expansion, or the inevitable Dosh video of him doing some absolutely insane circuit bullshit with the expansion.
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Jan 19, 2024 18:18
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