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Grand Fromage posted:The Gathering is the pilot/first movie, yes. It is bad, people suggest you skip it because it's bad enough it's driven off viewers before. I would say watch it when you're committed to the show. Everything important is brought up later but it's still interesting to see the evolution of the show between pilot and series IMO. Also, while it’s true that “everything important is brought up later”, in several cases, “brought up later” is a legitimately great callback if you’ve seen it and an annoying “wait what?” That characters have to explain to you on screen (and do) if you haven’t.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:57
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Truly, The Gathering is a land of contrasts.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:05
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Mega Comrade posted:Thanks. I've been told by a few to skip the pilot, which I assume is thw first movie?
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Jan 14, 2024 22:13
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If you're committed to watching the series, you should watch the pilot before you start season 2, but you don't need to do it right now.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:49
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Mega Comrade posted:So I've never seen this. But I finished rewatching old trek and finished watching nu trek (except disco, bailed on that crap season 2) and people keep going on about this show and I was recommended this thread to post my thoughts. Yesss...It begins again! Please don't feel like you need to keep your thoughts concise in this thread, everyone in here lives for new watchers providing their takes and seeing how they evolve as the story/characters do.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:51
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I started watching the show early in season 2, back when it first aired. A little reference to the Lurker's Guide was enough for me to figure out what was going on. Obviously there's no reason to live like that today, but you can watch or not watch The Gathering and still enjoy the series.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:53
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meh i usually do the movies at the end (even the pilot) (because im an ingrate)
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Jan 15, 2024 02:26
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The commanders called Jeff? I don't know why I find the funny but I do.
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Jan 15, 2024 13:25
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S1.E4 ∙ Infection Worst episode so far. boring and weak action. The suit wasn't to bad looking but the guy could clearly barely move. when he instantly turned back to human at the end I laughed out loud, cmon atleast make it take a few days. S1.E5 ∙ The Parliament of Dreams Ok, back to world building. I laughed with the night time music. Also why would he assume it's going to be 48 human hours, the tape just said 48 hours. surely you'd assume it meant Nard hours? But I enjoyed this episode I commented before on the great makeup and prosthetics but I have to comment again, you have even extras walking around in the background who just look fantastic. It's a human run station, they could have kept 90% of the population human and saved money but they didn't, they sat an extra down and probably spent 2 hours putting makeup on them for them to be on screen for 5 seconds and it really helps set the world. But it's such a weird contrast to how slapdash many of the sets look. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 19:06
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Mega Comrade posted:
The show takes a while to figure out how to present time (and differing alien methods of measuring time) consistently. You'll see a bunch of varying references to a "cycle" over the course of the first two seasons meaning anything from a day to a year with a number of definitions in between. It's one of those things that it's best not to get too hung up on - especially in the first season when JMS isn't writing every episode, and thus, you get some variation in how the characters are presented. quote:I commented before on the great makeup and prosthetics but I have to comment again, you have even extras walking around in the background who just look fantastic. It's a human run station, they could have kept 90% of the population human and saved money but they didn't, they sat an extra down and probably spent 2 hours putting makeup on them for them to be on screen for 5 seconds and it really helps set the world. But it's such a weird contrast to how slapdash many of the sets look. B5 was done on basically a shoestring budget compared to other scifi of it's time. (This is why the show uses so much CGI for it's effects. Way cheaper than doing things with models like Star trek did!) Part of how they saved money was by having an extremely modular set in their warehouse soundstage - almost theatre like. All the walls and corridor panels were designed to be rearranged at the drop of a hat to create any part of the station whenever they needed it. Just swap out the signage, reconfigure the walls, and you have a whole new sector or whatever. On the one hand, it feels cheap sometimes, on the other hand, one thing the show hammers home repeatedly is that the station itself was, in fact, built on the cheap after a ton of budget cuts because the first 4 Babylon stations met unfortunate ends. So, it kinda works.
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Jan 15, 2024 20:17
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That's interesting, I'd have thought in the early 90s models would have been cheaper than CGI. S1.E6 ∙ Mind War Pretty great episode. Did Garibaldi just commit PsySexual harassment? Haha Chekhov! I've thought the Winters actor was a bit bad at times and it really showed against the guest actor playing Ironheart, he was great. Good side plot with Ambassador too. S1.E7 ∙ The War Prayer Space facists. Interesting that the aliens act like this is behaviour they can't understand when they've shown racism in previous episodes. Suppose the isolationism here is a little different, some more fleshing out of other characters which I like to see. Dynamics and Relationships are starting to take shape Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 21:44
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Season 1 has some great episodes, and some not so great ones. It's a bit like most Trek seasons in that regard, though imho S1 B5 is still better than any first Trek season. But where it really ramps up quality is season 2, so even if you don't like some episodes now, it's very worth it to power through.
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Jan 15, 2024 21:57
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Oh don't worry I'm enjoying it. Even the not so good episodes are charming and I can see what they are trying to do even if they don't quite hit the mark.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:00
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Mega Comrade posted:That's interesting, I'd have thought in the early 90s models would have been cheaper than CGI. Probably cheaper than good, Jurassic Park quality CGI for sure. But for the low poly video game grade graphics we see in B5? Absolutely a way to save a substantial amount of money. Maybe you pay a bit more upfront for equipment and designing your first few models, but it’s so much cheaper after that for every scene you use them in.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:02
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IIRC they were one of the first outfits to use Amigas for their CG work, which made it cheaper and was cutting edge for a few years in that regard (good enough to be impressive at the time for cheaper, that is).
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Jan 15, 2024 22:06
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And as cheap as it may have looked, CG allowed the show to be far more dynamic that many shows of the time. The action and variety of the shots were, imo, better than many of the shots in most contemporary Trek episodes to that point, even if those looked better quality
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Jan 15, 2024 22:11
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Lemniscate Blue posted:IIRC they were one of the first outfits to use Amigas for their CG work, which made it cheaper and was cutting edge for a few years in that regard (good enough to be impressive at the time for cheaper, that is). it was wildly impressive at the time for TV.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:45
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It improves very quickly too, which is fun. Season 1 looks real rough now but by season 3 the CG is pretty good.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:56
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One of the things Babylon 5 has going for it is that it's a setting that does a lot of work to make itself seem very crowded. Star Trek would often have empty corridors and the space shots it was rare to ever have more than 2 models onscreen at once. In Babylon 5, characters are constantly walking through crowded environments, and the space scenes are full of CGI ships bumping around. The scales of ships in B5 would be nearly impossible to do with miniatures, since the station has to be looming large in the background. B5 space combat is fighter-based, so you constantly have teeny tiny ships interacting with massive ones.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:56
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Mega Comrade posted:That's interesting, I'd have thought in the early 90s models would have been cheaper than CGI. Good models cost a lot. My memory is that you might see one or maybe two new models in a season. B5 ships didn't look as pretty but they could introduce new ones pretty freely.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:02
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And camera movement of model shots, especially more than one in a shot, can be insanely complicated and the expertise to do it right was rare and expensive. As mentioned above, B5's space and ship shots were orders of magnitude more complex in number of objects and dimensions/axes of motion than any model shots of the era. TNG gets routinely mocked for slow, ponderous space battles, and DS9 didn't get out of that mold until they too switched to CG later in its run.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:41
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Mega Comrade posted:I commented before on the great makeup and prosthetics but I have to comment again, you have even extras walking around in the background who just look fantastic. It's a human run station, they could have kept 90% of the population human and saved money but they didn't, they sat an extra down and probably spent 2 hours putting makeup on them for them to be on screen for 5 seconds and it really helps set the world. But it's such a weird contrast to how slapdash many of the sets look. They actually saved a lot more money and time than that. B5 had a repertory company of around a dozen actors who could do speaking parts plus a good few more to work as extras. This allowed the makeup department to create made-to-measure prosthetics for each actor with full head and shoulder coverage that could be donned very quickly and still look good in the background, or applied with a little more effort and precision if the character was going to be in full focus. The real problem was the Minbari, where the process was more standard; Lennier and Delenn they took their time on, but you'll frequently see a guest star Minbari whose head scarp is not properly glued down at the ends.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:41
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Yep. Star Trek had more than double the budget of Babylon 5 and until it went CG, new ship models were rare. You could do fast kitbash stuff for the alien of the week, but models for the Federation or other guys who were going to be reused and thus had to be high quality? Not many of those.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:42
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Jedit posted:They actually saved a lot more money and time than that. B5 had a repertory company of around a dozen actors who could do speaking parts plus a good few more to work as extras. This allowed the makeup department to create made-to-measure prosthetics for each actor with full head and shoulder coverage that could be donned very quickly and still look good in the background, or applied with a little more effort and precision if the character was going to be in full focus. The real problem was the Minbari, where the process was more standard; Lennier and Delenn they took their time on, but you'll frequently see a guest star Minbari whose head scarp is not properly glued down at the ends. Even Delenn and Lennier (especially Delenn) frequently have gaps.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:49
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S1.E8 ∙ And the Sky Full of Stars Hey the commander gets kidnapped and psychology tortured! This seems familiar. It's not as good as Chain of Command but it does a good job and we get some great intrigue setup. This seems like the start of the shows famous overarching plots. S1.E9 ∙ Deathwalker DEATHWALKER!! Makeup looks like the mid point in a werewolf transformation. I recognised the voice and had to look it up and she was in Superman. Seem to be making the Narn as a bit Clingon like which is welcome, like some alien cultural backstories. Vorlons are into memory S&M or something? Man earth command seem like a bunch of dicks. That's a very German looking uniform you have their lady... Chevy Slyme posted:Even Delenn and Lennier (especially Delenn) frequently have gaps. Speaking of, is that head thing decorative or bone like and part of their head? Look like they descended from Triceratops. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Jan 16, 2024 |
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Jan 16, 2024 09:12
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Mega Comrade posted:
It's part of their head.
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Jan 16, 2024 09:29
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S1:E10 - Believers Space Jehovah witnesses! I'm guessing the reference to the surgery on Kosh was the pilot?
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Jan 16, 2024 13:40
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Mega Comrade posted:S1:E10 - Believers That is correct, yes.
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Jan 16, 2024 13:51
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S1E11 - Survivors Garabalti is like a budget space Mclain. Just needed a tank top to make the look complete. S1E12 - By any means necessary. For a while I thought this episode was gonna take an anti union stance, glad it was turned it around by the end. I think I'm team G'Kar. He's conniving but Londo is just a dick.
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Jan 16, 2024 19:42
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Mega Comrade posted:S1.E7 ∙ The War Prayer It may be worth looking up the Twain short story this is named after if you aren't familiar with it: https://www.people.vcu.edu/~toggel/prayer.pdf
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Jan 18, 2024 06:35
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Mega Comrade posted:S1E12 - By any means necessary. Babylon 5 is quite progressive, especially for it's time. This was for sure a satisfying payoff.
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Jan 18, 2024 09:25
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S1.E13 ∙ Signs and Portents Great episode. Lots of intrigue and the CGI was used to good effect here. What is that ambassador Kosh up to! S1.E14 ∙ TKO Silly episode with mostly no point. Ivanova backstory and development only saving grace. S1.E15 ∙ Grail A good episode slightly let down by some super dodgy CGI of the feeder. Garabalti showing his fashy side in this episode, desperate to beat up some homeless people. S1.E16 ∙ Eyes Great episode. Good villain, more background on the psycorps. And oh look a DS9 crossover! I wonder if we will get more. Was surprised about the comment on gas ruining our atmosphere in 1993! I'm starting to warm to the CGI now, it still doesn't look great but I can appreciate how they are using it in dynamic ways that old star trek couldn't with models.
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Jan 18, 2024 21:42
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Mega Comrade posted:S1.E16 ∙ Eyes There's one instance where a character doesn't come back to B5 because the actor was double booked playing a very similar character on DS9, but that's a ways in the future and works out well anyway. (There's another casting fuckup involved in the scenario, which ALSO works out well imo)
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Jan 19, 2024 16:49
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Mega Comrade posted:S1.E14 ∙ TKO A lot of people regard TKO as the worst episode of the entire show. (I'm with you on the point that the B plot was good, though.)
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Jan 19, 2024 17:22
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Powered Descent posted:A lot of people regard TKO as the worst episode of the entire show. (I'm with you on the point that the B plot was good, though.) The fan ratings on the Lurker's Guide put it as the second worst, just losing out to Infection.
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Jan 19, 2024 17:48
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Powered Descent posted:A lot of people regard TKO as the worst episode of the entire show. (I'm with you on the point that the B plot was good, though.) Believers is the worst one.
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Jan 19, 2024 20:34
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MikusR posted:Believers is the worst one.
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Jan 19, 2024 20:52
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MikusR posted:Believers is the worst one. Believers rules because it's just such a naked "gently caress you, this isn't star trek, we don't get a happy ending just by siding with science over religion."
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Jan 19, 2024 20:53
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Believers wasn't a great episode but certainly better than TKO.
Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 19, 2024 21:17
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Infection is the worst because there's no subplot that redeems it. It sets up some ideas but in and of itself, it's waaay below standard. Other episodes often considered poor, such as TKO or Grey 17 Is Missing, are redeemed from bad A plots by strong B plots.
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Jan 19, 2024 22:48
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