|
if you extend cav to flying creatures, Tiktaq'to's terradons can get pretty nasty with their rock drops
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 20:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 01:48 |
|
|
obviously this guy hasn't played with multiple wolf riders stacks as skarsnik roleplaying as the hobgobla khan (before the chorf dlc). sure you're not good, but nothing can catch you and there's a lot of weak arrows flying.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 20:16
|
|
|
It's cheating a bit of course, but Hawk Riders under the Sisters of Twilight.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 20:29
|
|
|
In general they have been very cautious on creating high tier missile cavalry, which I appreciate. Outriders are good, outrider grenades are great at mulching infantry, and the Marienburg AP grenadiers will murder any infantry you want to kill, but all of them notably do not have 360 degree firing arcs and will get murdered if caught in melee. They also don't have the stopping power to kill light cavalry so can be fairly easily chased off cost-effectively. War Sleds are durable and decent chariots but also get mauled by AP fire and any decent cavalry. Their ranged damage also isn't anything to write home about. I do feel like missile cavalry would be in a different place if missile fire was all flat trajectory since their extra mobility would be a lot more powerful, akin to how base outriders in WH1 had a role as essentially slightly weaker but far more flexible handgunners. But beyond that, there aren't any AP ranged cavalry with 360 fire that I can think of besides war sleds, who aren't exactly ranged powerhouses. Every other AP ranged cavalry I can think of only has a forward firing arc, and most 360 firing cavalry either has lower range or lower damage or both compared to comparable ranged infantry. E: I thing ranged axe marauders have AP 360 fire, but a low range and very limited ammo count.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 20:40
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:In general they have been very cautious on creating high tier missile cavalry, which I appreciate. Outriders are good, outrider grenades are great at mulching infantry, and the Marienburg AP grenadiers will murder any infantry you want to kill, but all of them notably do not have 360 degree firing arcs and will get murdered if caught in melee. They also don't have the stopping power to kill light cavalry so can be fairly easily chased off cost-effectively. If we counting sleds, may as well count war wagons and scourgerunner chariots since they fill a similar niche of AP ranged chariot (and also aren't very good as dedicated ranged AP). Also I forget - do deck droppers shoot 360 or are they front arc only? Centigors with throwing axes are ap and functionally similar to marauder horsemen axes too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 21:16
|
|
|
As a player whose tactical control and micro skills are abysmal, I think good cavalry archers probably represent a bigger threat than their on-paper stats would suggest because of their potential for very tactical and flexible maneuvering. They can be countered, but they'd either demand that your opponant match your attention and control (to avoid getting kited around) or commit an overkill of resources. It can also make the AI seem suddenly much harder, since even mildly effective use of ranged cavalry demands the player ratchet up their attention. I already found fighting the Wood Elves like crashing into a brick wall, just because I'd gotten so used to headbutting my enemies with a horde of overwhelming infantry. Even more effective missile cavalry would be an outsized challenge for players in the middle skill levels.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 21:24
|
|
|
ScootsMcSkirt posted:if you extend cav to flying creatures, Tiktaq'to's terradons can get pretty nasty with their rock drops From the heavens. With rocks. Screaming.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 21:46
|
|
|
If they every do a DLC for Kislev fleshing out the Ungols more I figure high-level missile cav are a given. Throw in a good melee-inclined hero and a hybrid lord ala Alith Anar, maybe some mid- and high-level foot archers similar to Lothern Seaguard As with any ultra powerful unit you can solve the 'why use anything else' equation by not clicking on them while opening the recruitment window. This also works with Sisters of Avelorn or any number of other insanely broken ranged units that already exist in the game
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 21:58
|
|
|
fimir need paddles. with scopes, natch
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 22:05
|
|
|
Lord Koth posted:It's cheating a bit of course, but Hawk Riders under the Sisters of Twilight. The new update to magic missiles has actually made them pretty bad. Since the shots don't spread out they no longer do a ton of damage to enemy units with arrows of kurnos. Before you could instantly annihilate your enemy's ranged presence, which made up for their lackluster shooting. Now you can't, and they trade really poorly with ground range units or antilarge once they run out of ammunition. I'm not convinced they are worth recruiting anymore. Especially compared to all of the other absolutely top tier wood elf units.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 22:22
|
|
|
the issue w/high AP cav or missile chariots is that when overtuned, they dominate. Depends on how tedious you wanna be in mp but you can basically pick apart the enemy, even one that counters you w/shields. the DE chariots with the ballista shots was way too powerful in that regard at first and also shields didn't block it
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 22:31
|
|
|
ScootsMcSkirt posted:if you extend cav to flying creatures, Tiktaq'to's terradons can get pretty nasty with their rock drops If Tiktaq'to (and Lizardmen in general) had more interesting campaign mechanics, he would probably be my favorite LL, because creating a Dinosaur Air Force is both incredibly funny and incredibly fun to play.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 22:55
|
|
|
ellyrian reavers are pretty good horse archer cavalry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 23:11
|
|
|
Lt. Lizard posted:If Tiktaq'to (and Lizardmen in general) had more interesting campaign mechanics, he would probably be my favorite LL, because creating a Dinosaur Air Force is both incredibly funny and incredibly fun to play. highly recommend the extended dino mod https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3079850881 it adds a caravan-like mechanic where you send out parties to go hunt creatures to recruit back into your main armies. there are even boss encounters for the caravans that unlock special unique units been having a complete blast with this mod. it even adds a bunch of missile cav that have insane projectiles too  
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 23:31
|
|
|
Insurrectionist posted:I actually kind of forgot Outriders, they are probably a bit closer than Horsemasters but still fall a bit short for me. Mostly down to being purely ranged (truly pathetic melee stats) but only having 20 ammo, doesn't go as far as you'd like. If pistoliers had high MA/charge they'd actually be worth using, but most of the time pistoliers are out-meleed by enemy crossbows, making them useful only for light support damage on already-engaged melee and rear-charges for morale reasons. They'll get chewed up by any enemy melee unit, including dogs/bats/etc., and are useless against any armored unit. Outriders do more damage per second than handgunners (they fire faster for marginally less damage). They're weaker than pistoliers in melee, though, which is a trip. Mostly when they're out of ammo (and they run out of ammo stupid quickly) I use them to ride down retreating units or do a rear-charge for morale reasons (they will get mulched by any melee unit in the game if they stay in melee). They're also nigh-useless in a siege compared to handgunners that punch WAY WAY WAY above their weight on a wall. Both of them loving suck compared to horsemasters (throwing axes) who do stupid strong, arcing AP damage from ranged and also have better melee stats across the board AND they're shielded. Also, I'm not sure if everyone is aware but shooting dudes in the back triggers a -16 leadership penalty which is loving huge. jokes fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jan 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 23:38
|
|
|
Nash posted:From the heavens. With rocks. Screaming.  ScootsMcSkirt posted:highly recommend the extended dino mod https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3079850881 Yeah a lizards playthrough with this is next on my list. I gotta figure out which LL to play though, since last I checked it didn't work with Nakai.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2024 23:42
|
|
|
Psycho Landlord posted:
i recall reading somewhere that there is a submod that allows it to work with nakai, but i dont know where that is def would love to do a nakai playthrough with this mod, though that might be tough since these dinos are insanely expensive
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 00:06
|
|
|
ScootsMcSkirt posted:highly recommend the extended dino mod https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3079850881 yeah sure the cav units are fine and all but it has laser dinos. I don't just mean laser dinos like the original game "Fires a bolt of light" dino, I mean big gently caress off beam dinos. Mod kicks rear end.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 00:21
|
|
|
horsemasters get mown down by guns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 00:53
|
|
|
Tankbuster posted:ellyrian reavers are pretty good horse archer cavalry. They just don't do enough damage en masse to really feel like a doomstack and won't do poo poo against armor. If they do make a high-tier Ungol horse archer unit, I'd hope they'd at least look at Reavers for a base. Maybe horsemasters too since they are pretty decent as well. They are good, but not absurdly powerful when doomstacked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 01:44
|
|
|
the superior ranged cav is war wagons
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 01:51
|
|
|
Third World Reagan posted:the superior ranged cav is war wagons The superior ranged cav is Lord Kroak.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 01:59
|
|
|
Log082 posted:yeah sure the cav units are fine and all I'm playing a nakai game now with that mod, and it makes him insanely strong because you can get them a lot faster than you would with the expeditions. The dinos really perform well in autoresolve too. I do want to play a tiktaqto game and do an all flying army but I'm bored of the Southlands at the moment. There are so many versatile dinos you can make any kind of army you want. Makes the regular lizardman roster seem more boring though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 05:30
|
|
|
Tankbuster posted:horsemasters get mown down by guns. Everything does
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 05:45
|
|
|
life didn't find a way when the rats hucked a moon at you geese
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 13:53
|
|
|
Cranappleberry posted:life didn't find a way when the rats hucked a moon at you geese No, lizards did
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 18:16
|
|
|
Re: ranged cavalry units. These have to be carefully balanced with consideration to multi-player play. While war wagons were seen as a terrible meme unit in SP campaigns, they were simultaneously considered overwhelmingly powerful in MP. Scourgerunner chariots too for the same reasons. You have to be careful making a mobile, armored, armor-piercing unit with fire while moving because you risk making everything else obsolete
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 04:23
|
|
|
That was kind of what I was getting at but you said it a lot better
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 04:29
|
|
|
rideANDxORdie posted:Re: ranged cavalry units. These have to be carefully balanced with consideration to multi-player play. While war wagons were seen as a terrible meme unit in SP campaigns, they were simultaneously considered overwhelmingly powerful in MP. Scourgerunner chariots too for the same reasons. You have to be careful making a mobile, armored, armor-piercing unit with fire while moving because you risk making everything else obsolete I'm sick of hearing that units need to be balanced for MP. No they dont. Make good units for this game where 99%+ of the playerbase does not play competitive battles. If they're good in MP - make them cost more gold if you want to use it in MP.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 04:42
|
|
|
On the flip side literally every unit works in SP so if you wanted to make a 15 stack of war wagons you could do it, right now, and absolutely crush the AI. So why bother balancing for SP where everything can be broken due to lord skills, techs, rites, items, etc. All of the ranged cavalry units discussed in the last page are perfectly usable in campaign already
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 04:50
|
|
|
rideANDxORdie posted:On the flip side literally every unit works in SP so if you wanted to make a 15 stack of war wagons you could do it, right now, and absolutely crush the AI.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 05:31
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:O...k? I never said balance for SP. I said make SP fun then balance said fun units via gold cost. "You have to balance units for the 5 dozen people that play the competitive multiplayer of the primarily single player game that what, a hundred thousand people own?" is loving stupid. I dont give a poo poo if they make a horse archer fun via skills, items, or its OP by default, just make fun poo poo! Yeah multiplayer is an absolute sideshow for TW. Making good SP campaigns impacts way, way more players. Anything that makes elite units more scarce and valuable improves campaigns IMO. What happens with ROR where when they die there's a cooldown to recruitment could be spread further. Would make losing elites actually matter more than just the gold and 3 turns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 05:41
|
|
|
all multiplayer balance is part of the advertising budget
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 06:23
|
|
|
The only important balancing environment is single-player, because that’s where everyone plays. Multiplayer balancing is just a matter of gold cost / tier slots / whatever, and it is effortless to do. It hardly impacts anyone in any case. I’m usually pretty sympathetic to niche player groups, but frankly we’re talking about dozens of people compared to tens of thousands of singleplayer users. In any case, anything that works for single player will work for multiplayer.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 06:35
|
|
|
nah its not that simple. Enough gold reductions won't make the shredder of lustria worth taking lol and units that are too good do make other poo poo obsolete. For example, iunno, a recent update to kislev
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 07:53
|
|
|
Can war wagons shoot over your melee troops on a flat plane or are they still mostly useless
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 08:59
|
|
|
I learned while playing a Teclis game that there is an elf chariot whose ranged attacks split off in a burst effect, they seemed pretty good. I've thought about doing a wood elf game with Orion too using only cavalry, I think they have the best duo of ranged and heavy cavalry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 10:25
|
|
|
Third World Reagan posted:all multiplayer balance is part of the advertising budget also dis
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 12:52
|
|
|
The problem with balancing for multiplayer is that the whining never stops and the devs end up nerfing every loving unit in the game in sequence. They nerf something, and then another "OP" unit no longer has that nerfed unit holding it in check so they have to nerf another unit, and so on and so on. Look at the Shogun 2 patch notes from release to the end, they nerfed everything.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 13:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 01:48 |
|
|
jokes posted:If pistoliers had high MA/charge they'd actually be worth using, but most of the time pistoliers are out-meleed by enemy crossbows, making them useful only for light support damage on already-engaged melee and rear-charges for morale reasons. They'll get chewed up by any enemy melee unit, including dogs/bats/etc., and are useless against any armored unit. This was what ranged cav was for in older TW games. You would engage the line then have a cantabrian circle plink away at the rear to give big morale losses so their line would falter and you could sweep. I feel like a lot of people could benefit from playing old battle scenarios and learning how to use oblique orders and similar in TW engines.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 14:38
|
|