Weka posted:

Oh let me just get a more recent article from searching their webpage for "China", this one from September 29, 2022

https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/strait-jacketed-thinking-on-taiwan/

~2.3% of Taiwanese are indigenous, it is extremely disingenuous to base independence arguments on their existence.

Technically true but again an extremely disingenuous way of occluding the fact Taiwan is an American dagger pointed at China's heart.

"Once America preferred one Taiwanese politician over another so the current Taiwanese government is clearly not an American proxy"

Lol this one is a classic. "Helping overthrow the world's most successful communist government as an American is effective anti imperialism!"

Weka posted:

Oh let me just get a more recent article from searching their webpage for "China", this one from September 29, 2022

https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/strait-jacketed-thinking-on-taiwan/

~2.3% of Taiwanese are indigenous, it is extremely disingenuous to base independence arguments on their existence.

Technically true but again an extremely disingenuous way of occluding the fact Taiwan is an American dagger pointed at China's heart.

"Once America preferred one Taiwanese politician over another so the current Taiwanese government is clearly not an American proxy"

Lol this one is a classic. "Helping overthrow the world's most successful communist government as an American is effective anti imperialism!"

fermun posted:

any member can get an article published in even if the article directly opposes official org positions.

"Democratic Left is the magazine of the Democratic Socialists of America. Signed articles do not necessarily express the position of the organization."

fermun posted:

what's funnier is that's from dsa's magazine, democratic left, which any member can get an article published in even if the article directly opposes official org positions. why is it done this way? idk.

quote:

But we are the global generation raised after the end of the Cold War, after the process that Odd Arne Westad called “Americanization”—what so many others called “globalization.”

[...]

For obvious reasons, North Americans played an outsize role in the online communities born in the alter-globalization era. New York and London have (relatively) well-funded, globally respected, left-leaning publishing houses, not to speak of the ideological state mega-apparatuses promoting the more mainstream ideas of democracy and liberalism


[...]

One Egyptian revolutionary put it to me this way: “In New York or Paris, if you do a horizontal, leaderless, and post-ideological uprising, and it doesn’t work out, you just get a media or academic career afterward. Out here in the real world, if a revolution fails, all your friends go to jail or end up dead.”


He was pointing to something that nagged at him, and me, and many others who have taken time to look back at political struggles since the 1960s. Is it perhaps that a lot of these approaches were developed by a New Left, back in the US and Western Europe, that didn’t fundamentally care if they won?

[...]

Somewhere like Egypt, it really matters if you win.

mila kunis posted:

in retrospect its a shame that in the wake of 2016 when there was a whole bunch of people looking to be channeled somewhere useful, all those online personalities or whoever decided to push people towards an organization with the structures of the DSA instead of something better. real missed shot there but you work with what you got

mila kunis posted:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3957814&userid=177018&perpage=40&pagenumber=3#post536736256

in conclusion

my bony fealty posted:

I don't know why the DSA should concern itself with Chinese internal politics at all. Seems like there are bigger problems to address in the "A" part of their name. But what to I know, I'm not a trot.

fermun posted:

that one was part of why the international committee was dissolved and re-formed in 2021 which that promise li guy was so mad about in the linked tweets on the last page

edit: there might be more statements directly from the international committee: https://international.dsausa.org/statements/ i'm not sure exactly when the transition from the old international committee to the new one happens, though, i think it was spring 2021

Atrocious Joe posted:

It's probably a good thing DSA hasn't made a statement on China in like 5 years if the previous statements were all trash

admitting one part of that organization has improved over time isn't an endorsement

Raskolnikov38 posted:

because democratic centralism is scary

mila kunis posted:

in that context, its better to be where most people are at instead of splitting into tiny sects and all you can do is express regret is that people weren't funneled into something with a better structure when a lot of people were looking for something in the wake of trump 2016 and the realization of what the democratic party is.

fermun posted:

this was the reasoning that SAlt decided to have members openly dual-card in DSA, which DSA responded with accepting as long as they aren't trying to cause splits. that's been working pretty ok since that became a thing in December 2020. the local chapter of PSL also allows my chapter to use their office for us to have meetings too large for my chapter's office, which gives our members and their members an opportunity to engage with each other, though they don't dual-card.

fermun posted:

you see, only things in https://www.dsausa.org/statements/ are official positions, and things from https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/ are opinion pieces. why does dsa publish opinion pieces that contradict official positions? who the hell knows.

Ohtori Akio posted:

thats true. its fat and gay

DSA Condemns U.S. and Israeli hostilities in Palestine and West Asia JANUARY 13, 2024 posted:

...hundreds of thousands of Yemenis dying in the U.S.-backed Saudi and UAE war and blockade on Yemen.

fermun posted:

this was the reasoning that SAlt decided to have members openly dual-card in DSA, which DSA responded with accepting as long as they aren't trying to cause splits. that's been working pretty ok since that became a thing in December 2020. the local chapter of PSL also allows my chapter to use their office for us to have meetings too large for my chapter's office, which gives our members and their members an opportunity to engage with each other, though they don't dual-card.

https://www.socialistalternative.org/2024/01/18/ukraine-update-stalemate-cold-war-shifts-in-consciousness/ posted:

Chinese imperialism 
...
the general direction of travel in the world situation is towards more conflicts
...
Socialists reject Putin’s ridiculous claims that his imperialist invasion aims to “denazify” Ukraine. Putin himself is backed by the far right and spreads authoritarian and racist ideas internationally.
The Zelensky government is not fascist
...
the language rights of Ukraine’s significant minority populations.
Russian-speaking and Tartar peoples should have the right of self determination, including greater autonomy and the right to separate from the country.

Weka posted:

https://www.dsausa.org/statements/dsa-condemns-u-s-and-israeli-hostilities-in-palestine-and-west-asia/

On the face of it this article seems good right? But it is just an attempt to whitewash American crimes in Yemen, where American forces have directly bombed Yemenis as well as having boots on the ground to this day. As well as running their own blockade through the Combined Maritime Forces. You can find this out by reading a wikipedia article, but the DSA will ignore it completely.

Unsurprisingly, Trots are OK with American fascism's left wing. I thought I would have a look at the most recent thing on Socialist Alternative's website.

Lol.
===
OK so the USA's last president was as antiwar as an American president can be (not very), but the previous president, Obama, invaded both Syria and Libya and began direct American attacks on Ansar Allah, as well as massively ramping up the American presence in Africa. Oh and sponsored a fascist led coup in Ukraine, kicking off a war there.
Before that was Bush.

It is hardly accurate to say the amount of wars is increasing.
===
This sort of statement intended to suggest Putin is a right winger that stops short of actually saying it because it is not true is disingenuous. He is ideologically a classical liberal (ie to the left of Sanders economically) who is running what seems to be a state capitalist country. Of course as far as identity politics goes he is to the right, and that is normally the focus for American so called leftists.

Most telling is this idea that authoritarianism is bad. How does Socialist Alternative expect to advance socialism meaningfully without it? Voting?

IMO a government that has elevated noted genocidaire and Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera to the status of primary national hero IS fascist.
===
If Russian people in Ukraine have the right to separate from the country, and have been attacked by Ukraine for exercising this right, how is Putin's invasion which is protecting these rights imperialism? I'm not sure how "Tartar" (sic) people would practically cede from Ukraine as they don't represent a majority anywhere, and numbered 73,000 at the last census. American propagandists love to bring them up for some reason though. Perhaps because they can be held up as indigenous Crimeans justifying attempts to recapture the peninsula against the will of its people.

Also worth noting according to the last census, Russian speakers outnumber Ukrainian speakers within the 2013 borders.
===
Perhaps the most obvious example of the sympathies of the author is relying on claims made by American state media (NPR), particularly Charles Maynes, whose last job was at Voice of America, founded by the CIA.

comedyblissoption posted:

perhaps the dsa could helpfully provide their definition of fascism that excludes a post-coup president running around with nazi insignia and flag who lionizes the oun
https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1702584315400671439

bedpan posted:

hundreds of thousands of Yemenis dying in US backed Saudi and UAE war and blockade on Yemen is bad but. . .

also lmao at the CIA to NPR pipeline

Weka posted:

But it is just an attempt to whitewash American crimes in Yemen, where American forces have directly bombed Yemenis as well as having boots on the ground to this day. As well as running their own blockade through the Combined Maritime Forces. You can find this out by reading a wikipedia article, but the DSA will ignore it completely.

comedyblissoption posted:

is the dsa still brave enough to support congressional democrats after stating opposition to american war in ukraine, gaza, and yemen

PawParole posted:

https://twitter.com/DSA_union/status/1748880003696365840

this is so stupid. the point of unionization from a socialist point of view is to build workers power and to hobble the “master class” by hitting them where it hurts, their pockets , presumably these dweebs think that the DSA is a socialist party so why would they want to do this?

incoreherebt even for the clique of lifestylists that make up the DSA.

fermun posted:

khazar sansculotte posted: