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(Thread IKs: fart simpson)
 
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Danann
Aug 4, 2013

Honky Mao posted:

western industrial capacity? Huh?

you won't believe how fast they can exchange spreadsheets and emails

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WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)
Now, now, the US does have a major manufacturing base. It just happens to be primarily tooled towards manufacturing anti-depressants and viagra with almost 20% of the entire manufacturing workforce in pharmaceuticals. I'm sure it would only take a few months of retooling before those lines can start pumping out war materiel. Surely?

Eminent DNS
May 28, 2007

1stGear posted:

assuming the west doesn't collapse politically and economically immediately, no the west wins.
the simple fact that america has no land borders against enemies it has to defend, and the combined western industrial capacity being able to adjust given enough time to do, means it will win- again.

America could be making an F-22 squadron ever other week, it isn't.
There's more thanks than the Army could ever use sitting in a depot in a desert.
They have practically infinite space and blue sky to train and equip new units.

It'd suck and 500 million people would die, but so long as the west retains the will to fight (not a certainty) it will always win. Unless China somehow invades the west coast and razes everything up to Montana within a year, they will inevitably lose.

The amount of fundamental changes American society would require to (re)industrialize to that degree would be such that it would be no longer recognizable as "American" (as we understand it) and wouldn't necessarily be at the mercy of the current broken decision-making system. In that case, it's hard to believe that this new society would begin or continue this war you're envisioning.

Tldr a US that reindustralizes wouldn't be a US that goes to war with China

Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Now, now, the US does have a major manufacturing base. It just happens to be primarily tooled towards manufacturing anti-depressants and viagra with almost 20% of the entire manufacturing workforce in pharmaceuticals. I'm sure it would only take a few months of retooling before those lines can start pumping out war materiel.

does that include the hand-sewing of masks in the GE factory in 2020 long after BYD was able to convert a car assembly plant to fully automated mask production lines in a week

Eminent DNS
May 28, 2007

Also imagine the US trying to make raptors again and realizing that all the "US made components" are assembled in the US from Chinese sub contracted components lol

Eminent DNS
May 28, 2007

Also also treating the US as some uniquely continental power ignores the last, like, 75 years of Chinese foreign policy, which has prioritized reinforcing (via economic development most visibly) the various frontiers, including now the south China sea lol

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

Palladium posted:

does that include the hand-sewing of masks in the GE factory in 2020 long after BYD was able to convert a car assembly plant to fully automated mask production lines in a week

The Nazis handcrafted each helmet individually in artisanal workshops, so I can't imagine this would be a major impediment to war against China, even if they are the world's factory.

1stGear
Jan 16, 2010

Here's to the new us.

Eminent DNS posted:

Also imagine the US trying to make raptors again and realizing that all the "US made components" are assembled in the US from Chinese sub contracted components lol

i think u will find that america is the arsenal of democracy and furthermore those loving commie [LONG STRING OF RACIAL SLURS EDITED FOR BREVITY] are gonna find out why americans don't have free healthcare anyway how's the war in yemen going

386-SX 25Mhz VGA
Jan 14, 2003

(C) American Megatrends Inc.,

Anime Schoolgirl posted:

__________________________________________syq
I missed the memo on this what does syq mean

Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

1stGear posted:

i think u will find that america is the arsenal of democracy and furthermore those loving commie [LONG STRING OF RACIAL SLURS EDITED FOR BREVITY] are gonna find out why americans don't have free healthcare anyway how's the war in yemen going

you mean before or after the complete hamas collapse after receiving the most amount of aerial TNT per square meter

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

I missed the memo on this what does syq mean

Source Your Quote. People post other ridiculous poo poo they find as if they're posting it.

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020
In other China vs US news

nVidia Huang is over in China singing and dancer like he is doing some Chinese New Year Gala special

No it's not AI generated

https://twitter.com/lidongyx/status/1748901846285181279?t=ACYktBrMk4HrYF3FoOJNKw&s=19

386-SX 25Mhz VGA
Jan 14, 2003

(C) American Megatrends Inc.,

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Source Your Quote. People post other ridiculous poo poo they find as if they're posting it.
oh cool thanks!

Dr. Jerrold Coe
Feb 6, 2021

Is it me?

1stGear posted:

assuming the west doesn't collapse politically and economically immediately, no the west wins.
the simple fact that america has no land borders against enemies it has to defend, and the combined western industrial capacity being able to adjust given enough time to do, means it will win- again.

America could be making an F-22 squadron ever other week, it isn't.
There's more thanks than the Army could ever use sitting in a depot in a desert.
They have practically infinite space and blue sky to train and equip new units.

It'd suck and 500 million people would die, but so long as the west retains the will to fight (not a certainty) it will always win. Unless China somehow invades the west coast and razes everything up to Montana within a year, they will inevitably lose.

lmao beat me to it

unwantedplatypus
Sep 6, 2012
I can think of a modern country that’s roughly comparable to the 1940’s US but it sure as poo poo ain’t the 2020’s US lmao

Weka
May 5, 2019

That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.
Good on nvidia Huang, he looks like he is enjoying himself

1stGear posted:

America could be making an F-22 squadron ever other week, it isn't.

Lol nice one, two bites right off the mark. In first gear if you will.

Weka
May 5, 2019

That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.
Just in case anyone doesn't know, it is literally impossible for America to make a single F-22 as the tooling was destroyed and the blueprints have been lost.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

Some Guy TT posted:

Twenty days before Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Chinese president Xi Jinping signed a remarkable joint statement with Vladimir Putin, which proclaimed that there were “no limits to Sino-Russian cooperation…no forbidden zones.” When Russian tanks began rolling through Ukrainian territory, China was at pains to signal that it had received no advance word about Moscow’s offensive, and it has sought ever since to avoid displaying any outright allegiance to the war aims of its no-limits friend. This has required Beijing to constantly, awkwardly evade stating its position on an attack that clearly violated international law and that has damaged China’s security interests by weakening its authoritarian partner, Russia, while drawing Europe and the United States dramatically closer together.

Xi’s characterization of a friendship without forbidden zones looks like a miscalculation, but it was surely the result of careful geopolitical deliberation. His strongly assertive rule since 2013, as well as China’s increasingly aggressive foreign policy since at least the Western financial crisis of 2007–2008, have been premised on the belief that the United States is in steep and probably irreversible decline as a global power, and that it is therefore ripe for a challenge.

The last time Beijing placed a major bet on the prospect of US decline was a hugely significant turning point for both China and the world. American memories of the resumption of diplomatic contacts between Beijing and Washington in 1972 after a quarter-century without any are dominated by stories of Richard Nixon’s Machiavellian cleverness in sending Henry Kissinger to conduct secret talks with China’s top leaders. Their aim was to recruit the world’s most populous country into an opportunistic, tacit alliance against the Soviet Union, with which it had had a falling-out a decade earlier.

In seeking to partner with Washington, however, Beijing was following a different logic. As Frank Dikötter relates in China After Mao: The Rise of a Superpower, it believed that the US, bogged down badly in Vietnam, was doomed to decline. This made it less of a long-term challenger to China, which gave Beijing all the more reason to consider the Soviet Union its greatest threat. Just three years earlier the two countries had exchanged live fire in an ill-defined border area on the Ussuri River, with Moscow hinting at the possibility of a preemptive nuclear strike against China.

Like other authors of recent Western histories of this period, Dikötter attributes most of the early initiative in the reestablishment of diplomatic ties between Washington and Beijing to the Chinese, not to Nixon. Beijing’s preoccupation with Moscow did not fade quickly, either. Dikötter quotes one senior Chinese foreign policy official who said of the Soviets in 1977, “They are more imperialist than the worst imperialists.” As this view helps illustrate, the story of China in the post-Mao period—which came to be known as the era of reform and opening after long stretches of autarky and violent upheaval brought about by experiments varyingly aimed at producing socioeconomic egalitarianism and rapid economic growth—is as given to mythmaking by Chinese propagandists as it was to Westerners.

In condensed form, the more or less standard Western account of this era goes something like this. When Mao succumbed from a reported combination of Parkinson’s and Lou Gehrig’s diseases in 1976, after forty-three years of rule during which his supreme authority was seldom seriously challenged, China lucked out with the elevation of Deng Xiaoping, a talented capitalist reformer and putative moderate, as his successor. The high-growth years of the 1980s and 1990s under the serenely smiling Deng, familiar to Western audiences from multiple Time magazine covers, are usually recounted with an air of breezy predestination. As he pursued sensible policies, the down-to-earth Deng spouted now-famous aphorisms—such as “One crosses the river by feeling for the stones” and “It doesn’t matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches the mice”—that were meant to showcase his agreeable pragmatism.

Even better known was another statement attributed to Deng: “To get rich is glorious.” Could there be a pithier statement to capture the spirit of a time when China was blowing past one economic milestone after another? First, in places like Anhui and Sichuan Provinces, peasants were freed from the rigid collectivism of the Mao era and allowed to sell crops from their own plots. Next, industrial workers began to receive bonuses incentivizing individual effort, marking a break with the era of the so-called iron rice bowl, when everyone had the same low wages and subsisted on ration coupons.

Deng then welcomed foreign investment, carefully at first, in a few places like Shenzhen that were designated as “special economic zones” (SEZs), which were like rocket boosters for the country’s GDP growth. In short order Shenzhen went from an obscure fishing village to the country’s brightest economic success, growing at a 58 percent annual rate between 1980 and 1984. The SEZs churned out ever-larger quantities of textiles and light manufactured goods from children’s toys to simple electronics, and China’s exports increased fivefold between 1978 and 1988.

Next, Shanghai was redeveloped as a spectacular modern financial center and international showcase for the new China. In 2001 China joined the World Trade Organization, with American backing and enthusiasm from Western multinationals, and was well on its way to becoming a capitalist juggernaut.

The only hiccup—for that is how it is usually presented—was the mass student and worker protests centered on Beijing’s Tiananmen Square in 1989, which ended when the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) ordered a crackdown in which probably more than two thousand people were killed. But after a halfhearted quarantine by Western countries and a challenge by old-line conservatives within the CCP over his embrace of capitalism, the eighty-seven-year-old Deng toured China’s industrializing south in 1992 to reinvigorate his reforms, and within a couple of years the economy took off once again. This is often offered as proof of another aphorism attributed, wrongly, to Deng: “Practice is the sole criterion of truth”—in other words, it’s the results that count. And from that perspective, who could argue with the results, since after Mao’s death China shot from an average annual income of less than $200 per person to $12,000 today, with an economy that rivals that of the US in size?

Dikötter’s is one of a number of recent books arguing that this standard account of the post-Mao years gets a great many facts wrong. Getting them right is important not only for understanding that history but also for assessing a variety of intensely relevant contemporary concerns, from the sources of authority and the nature of politics in the CCP to how one might best understand Xi’s rule.

Two of these books, Dikötter’s China After Mao and Never Turn Back: China and the Forbidden History of the 1980s by Julian Gewirtz, reflect the complexity of such questions in how strongly they differ in their interpretations of this period. The focus of a third book, Overreach: How China Derailed Its Peaceful Rise by Susan Shirk, is much closer to the present, but the interpretational tensions that arise between Dikötter and Gewirtz on the one hand and the standard account on the other, as well as the different stresses offered by these two historians, further highlight the difficulties faced even by someone as deeply informed as Shirk in trying to assess today’s China. She is a longtime China scholar at the University of California at San Diego and a former deputy assistant secretary of state who first traveled to the country in 1971.

Both Dikötter and Gewirtz begin their accounts of the early post-Mao era with discussions of Hua Guofeng, a transitional figure who has been largely forgotten in China and receives little attention in the historiography of the period. While virtually on his deathbed, Mao banished Deng, who during his long career had risen to high positions in the party, been purged by Mao during the Cultural Revolution, and been brought back to power in 1974. Almost at the same time, Mao elevated Hua, hitherto a nearly powerless and undistinguished premier—head of the government—to the position of first vice-chairman of the CCP, making him Mao’s designated successor.

In both these books, as well as in a valuable new biography, “Avec toi au pouvoir, je suis tranquille”: Hua Guofeng (1921–2008) by the French historian Stéphane Malsagne, Hua comes across as an important reformist in the early post-Mao years, experimenting with the loosening of central economic controls and engaging with the capitalist world in order to position China for rapid economic growth. Deng usually receives sole credit for such things. Hua’s ambitions depended on the large-scale importation of Western industrial equipment, financed by borrowing from Western banks—China’s “foreign leap forward”—in order to jumpstart the country’s moribund socialist economy without radically overhauling its structure.

More interesting still is the depiction in both these books of the intense infighting at the highest level of Chinese politics. Mao’s death unleashed ambitions for power, and nearly all the major figures practiced vicious score-settling to obtain it, usually under cover of subterfuge. That is because virtually everyone, save perhaps the holdouts of the radicalism of the Cultural Revolution known as the Gang of Four, wanted to avoid a situation in which power would again be as highly concentrated as it had been under Mao.

It was Hua, ironically, who rehabilitated the banished Deng. But once he grasped Deng’s ambition, he quickly set out to discredit his more pedigreed rival as someone who had subverted the party’s authority during Mao’s final year of life by secretly promoting large demonstrations at Tiananmen to channel popular disgruntlement following the death of Mao’s longest-serving lieutenant, Zhou Enlai.

Deng quickly repaid his rival in the same coin, using well-placed surrogates to ridicule Hua as an empty suit for having used an ill-chosen slogan known as the “two whatevers” to bolster his legitimacy. The phrase was intended to signal that in leading the country Hua would make decisions on the basis of whatever he believed Mao would have done. The impression of being a shallow copycat was reinforced by his emulation of Mao’s language, dress, and even propaganda portraiture, all of which Hua, without a strong power base, believed would help establish his authority. He was happy to spread the story that a dying Mao had told him, “With you in charge, I am at ease” (from which Malsagne’s book takes its title), but he moved swiftly away from many of the central precepts of Maoism. For a country that was in a mood for a break with the traumas of the late Mao era, though, Hua’s choice of style proved a politically fatal mistake.

Deng, a clever opportunist, inveighed against “feudalism” in China, by which he meant leaders remaining in office for life, choosing their own successors, and engaging in the highly personalized style of rule practiced by Mao. Criticism like this unmistakably targeted Hua and further bolstered Deng’s chances at taking over. Even though Hua retained his titles, by the end of 1978 Deng was recognized as the de facto head of the CCP, an ascension that party propagandists trumpeted as the “Great Turning Point in History,” with China now embarked on the “correct path for socialist modernization.”

In plotting his rise, Deng had also tapped into the strong appetite for change he sensed in the country, and he encouraged talk about democracy, supporting a movement by citizens to post their thoughts about the need for reform in a part of Beijing known as Xidan, at what became known as Democracy Wall. The name derived from the fact that demonstrators were clamoring not only for what Deng and other party leaders said were the country’s four needed great modernizations to agriculture, industry, defense, and science, but also a fifth: democracy.

“Even if a few malcontents take advantage of democracy to make trouble…the thing to be feared most is silence,” Deng said of the demonstrations in early 1979. But by the end of the year, with moves afoot to relieve Hua of any residual power, Deng shut down Democracy Wall and clamped down on free expression. The best-known promoter of this fifth modernization was a young electrician and former Maoist Red Guard named Wei Jingsheng. As Gewirtz notes, Wei had written that Chinese people need “the kind of democracy enjoyed by people in European and American countries,” and this included “the power to replace their representatives anytime.” As a result he was arrested amid Deng’s crackdown and jailed for fifteen years.

The most important divergences in the accounts of Gewirtz and Dikötter become clear in this era, as Deng in effect became China’s supreme ruler, despite relinquishing his most important formal political title of vice-premier in 1980. Gewirtz depicts the critical decade of the 1980s, when China began its economic takeoff, as a time of intellectual ferment and ardent experimentation driven for the most part by two ill-fated lieutenants of Deng, Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang. With Deng’s patronage, Hu became the head of the CCP and Zhao the country’s premier. Each fit a patten of ambitious Chinese reformers since the late nineteenth century whose determination to restore their country to greatness made them not just willing but eager to adopt ideas from the West.

Gewirtz states flatly that the portrait of Deng as the fount of ideas, which the world has generally accepted, is nothing less than systematic hagiography. As a companion of Mao from early in the Communist movement as well as a survivor of Mao’s megalomania, Deng enjoyed great prestige and personal authority, but he had few original ideas about economic modernization and little inclination for a hands-on approach to running the country. According to Gewirtz, he “governed mostly by intuition and broad, sometimes vague utterances.” Even the celebrated SEZs, associated in the popular memory with Deng, had little to do with him.

The generation of ideas was mostly left to Hu and Zhao, who both came to tragic ends later in the decade after Deng washed his hands of them and a variety of lesser-known figures at the first signs of serious trouble brought on by their reforms. Gewirtz—whose previous book, Unlikely Partners: Chinese Reformers, Western Economists, and the Making of Global China (2017), is a richly detailed history of how economic reform in China was shaped by foreign thinkers—writes that the SEZs were the result of Deng’s order to an aide to go study the recent successes of various Western European countries. Dikötter specifies that Ireland was the model and calls the scheme “far from daring,” saying that special export processing zones had been tried elsewhere as far back as the late 1950s.

In Gewirtz’s account, the 1980s come across as a time that was remarkably full of possibilities, when one could imagine dramatically different directions and outcomes for China prior to the foreclosure of greater liberalization by the protests and crackdown at Tiananmen in 1989. Prompted by Zhao, the country experienced a boom of voguish technological futurism centered on the best-selling books of the American author Alvin Toffler, such as Future Shock and especially The Third Wave. Zhao had them summarized, translated, and distributed to the political elite and eventually made available to the masses. With them spread a belief that China could overcome its late industrialization and catch up to or even leapfrog the West by embracing cutting-edge research fields such as computer and biological sciences. If it succeeded, one senior official said, “quite a few Third World countries which tried in vain to follow American or European ways [may] be swayed towards the Chinese model.”

The remarkable ferment of this era also brought an explosion of underground literature, increasingly daring publications, avant-garde art, feminist ideas, and student activism. As the tragic events at Tiananmen later attested, the CCP still had plenty of conservatives in high positions, but this seemed to be the time for reformists. Prominent officials advocated a complete separation between the party and the state, turning the rubber-stamp National Assembly into an independent center of power and relaxing restrictions on expression.

Wan Li, a vice-premier at the time, may have taken the calls for reform furthest among officials in 1986 when he said, “Allowing the broad masses of the people to discuss politics is not simply not contradictory to these [Four Cardinal Principles], but in fact is exactly what is required to adhere to these principles.” Gewirtz credits these trends to a call by Deng in 1980 for greater reform, while he was still brushing Hua aside. In 1986, the same year as Wan’s speech, Deng called for “decentralizing our power.” Two years earlier, sensing how fragile and tentative the new spirit of openness and experimentation was, Zhao had written to Deng to urge him to institutionalize some of the political reforms under consideration. It was important to do so while Deng and some of the other so-called immortals who had helped lead the Chinese Revolution under Mao were “still energetic and in good health,” enjoyed unassailable prestige, and could “personally inspect and seek compliance.” Gewirtz writes, though, that Deng “took no immediate action,” leaving the reform process fatally vulnerable.

Dikötter, by contrast, makes this period sound less like one of seriously considered, reform-minded experimentation than one of wild, lurching improvisation, with Deng more at the helm than Gewirtz suggests but still less directly involved than most standard accounts would have it. Deng in this view had just two priorities: positioning China to zoom ahead economically and catch up with the West, and never allowing anything to seriously threaten the power of the CCP. It is easy to imagine goals like these coming into conflict, and they did. In Dikötter’s account Deng spent this decade zigzagging between fast-growth capitalist experimentation and conservative ideological reaction. That often meant siding with influential party elders who were lifelong Marxist-Leninists and who instinctively favored strong central planning and tight controls on the economy—and on pretty much everything else.

Although specialists have always known that side of him, this Deng is less familiar in the sunny popular accounts of this era, which often depict him as someone who sought to gradually steer China toward some version of capitalism and maybe even liberalism. Deng inveighed constantly against what he called “spiritual pollution,” by which he meant Western political ideas and culture. He was committed, in his words, to “fight[ing] the United States, but not to the point where we break off the relationship.” And he was resolutely opposed to any notion of a “peaceful evolution” of China toward a more liberal political system. The glow of Western optimism—or naiveté—that free markets might cause China to do just that long survived Deng, who died in 1997. Dikötter quotes one scholar who predicted, after China’s accession to the World Trade Organization in 2001, that by 2015 it would be a democracy. Even Human Rights Watch, he notes, surmised that its membership could “increase pressure for greater openness, more press freedom, enhanced rights for workers, and an independent judiciary,” none of which came about.

The biggest contrasts that arise between the assessments of Gewirtz and Dikötter, though, don’t concern Deng as much as his principal deputies, Hu and Zhao, prior to the killings at Tiananmen in 1989. In the dismissal of Hu in 1987 and the purge and house arrest of Zhao after Tiananmen, Gewirtz seems to see the foreclosure of possibilities for liberalizing reforms in China. He writes fascinatingly about Zhao’s bold promotion of River Elegy, a six-part documentary shown to enormous nationwide audiences on Chinese Central Television in 1988. It baldly depicts Chinese culture as stagnant and badly in need of openness and change. I recently watched a murky print of it online and was astonished by the bluntness of its insistence on shaking China out of its old imperial smugness and learning from the West. It also turned out to be stunningly bad politics, offending the nationalist sensibilities of party conservatives and helping to galvanize their efforts to rein in experimentation and curtail reforms.

Hu and Zhao are almost invariably paired as the tragic reformists of this chaotic era. But with the economy overheating and inflation fueling both old-guard discomfort and popular ferment, Zhao was actively involved in the purge of Hu. During a brutal six-day session in which Hu came under withering criticism from party leaders, Zhao, his supposed fellow reformer, helped seal his fate, saying, “I don’t think that I can continue to work with you.”

Dikötter makes both of these men sound less like committed reformers than combinations of careerists, dilettantes, and tinkerers, and Zhao in particular mostly comes off as an opportunist. In 1952, Dikötter notes, Mao sent him to Guangdong Province to replace an official who was judged too lenient toward the local population:

Zhao Ziyang helped his boss carry out a ruthless campaign of repression. The slogan was “Every Village Bleeds, Every Household Fights,” with ferocious beatings and random killings taking place across the province. In some places suspects were trussed up, hung from beams, buried up to the neck and torched.

As late as 1985, Zhao visited the entrepreneurial city of Wenzhou and explained, Dikötter writes, “that capitalism would bring long-term contradictions among the people, which might cause social instability, and in turn could prompt political unrest.”

Dikötter occasionally shows another side of Zhao, such as his statement amid the political and social instability of 1989 that the corruption plaguing the country was at least partly due to “lack of openness.” When student and worker protests swept central Beijing the following year, Zhao was seen on television urging demonstrators to disperse peacefully, and he then pushed for the CCP to treat them leniently. But by this time his influence had completely dissipated, and Deng personally ordered troops to clear Tiananmen Square, which they did with live ammunition. While it had taken six days to dispose of Hu, Zhao was quickly dismissed and placed under house arrest until he died sixteen years later, after which he was largely erased from history. Some official Chinese media didn’t mention his passing at all; others took brief notice but failed to mention that he had been one of the country’s top leaders.

Although Susan Shirk’s book retraces some of this past, it begins bracingly in the present and mostly concerns the rule of China’s two most recent leaders, Hu Jintao, who left office after ten years in 2012, and the current head of the CCP, Xi Jinping. In most respects, Hu is treated as the last ruler of the Deng era, which for Shirk also includes his predecessor, Jiang Zemin. She argues persuasively that Xi has broken sharply with Deng and even worked to efface his memory in China. There are no perfect parallels to Xi among his predecessors, but Mao is the closest, in his overall command of the country’s political system.

“A new Cold War has already begun,” Shirk writes on her opening page.

With the former Soviet Union, the lines of separation were clear. With China they are not. China and the United States are economically and socially interdependent, more so than the Soviet Union and the United States ever were. Yet the interconnections haven’t prevented them from hurtling into hostility.

Paradoxically, given the line she draws between the Deng and Xi eras, the roots of the growing antagonism between China and the US don’t lie with the assertive Xi but with the forgotten man of Chinese politics, the colorless Hu Jintao. That is not so much because Hu was personally unprepossessing, Shirk argues, but because more than any other Chinese leader, including Deng, he governed within the spirit of the system bequeathed by Deng: one of collective rule in which the chairman of the CCP, the most powerful position in the country, was nonetheless never more than a first among equals. The intellectual credit directly due to Deng for the economic boom of the reform period of the 1980s is, as we have seen, still open to vigorous debate. What is beyond dispute, though, is that Deng had firm, original, and even relatively durable ideas about renovating China’s political system following Mao’s death.

After he led China’s Communists to revolutionary triumph in 1949, Mao’s misguided policies repeatedly produced national catastrophes. The most famous of these were the Great Leap Forward of the late 1950s and early 1960s and the Cultural Revolution, which lasted from 1966 to 1976, each of which has been the topic of a monumental book by Dikötter. The first was a crash industrialization program that caused the starvation of 30 million or more Chinese, and the second was a decade-long stretch of political and social turmoil cultivated by the aging Mao to eliminate potential rivals real and imagined, Deng among them, and to further his vision of radical egalitarianism. Shirk writes that Deng concluded that costly disasters like these and others under Mao were the result of “over-concentration of power [that] is liable to give rise to arbitrary rule by individuals at the expense of collective leadership.”

In a major speech to the Politburo in 1980, Deng spelled out his remedies, which involved eight structural changes to the political system that were soon codified. The most important of these was the end of lifetime tenure for senior officials, who were limited to a maximum of two five-year terms and mandatory retirement at sixty-eight. A regular calendar was instituted for the meetings of the highest bodies of the CCP, in descending order in power from the Politburo Standing Committee to the Politburo to the Central Committee, with approximately two hundred members. The latter was empowered to elect the party’s higher leaders.

In practice, though, this intense focus on correcting the wild excesses of the past created a new set of systemic infirmities. Under Hu, each member of the Politburo Standing Committee, which then was made up of nine men, enjoyed broad discretion over funding and policy priorities in a given area, such as defense, foreign affairs, or domestic security. Shirk quotes a Singapore-based political scientist who observed that

the final outcome of the collective presidency is inevitably that there is no president, and the collective responsibility within the ruling party often turns into a situation of de facto collective irresponsibility.

The result was a state of nearly unbridled competition over resources that was often used to cater to deep currents of nationalist sentiment both within the state and among the general public. It also caused alarming levels of corruption. Deng had famously said that China should “hide its capacities and bide its time,” which meant indefinitely avoiding confrontation with the United States until it had become rich and powerful. Hu, as vividly depicted by Shirk, was formed in this mold and saw militarism and greater antagonism with the United States as dangerous for China, especially for its economy. But with no mechanism for supervising his fellow senior leaders, there was “nothing stopping them from overdoing their preferred policies.” In the spoils system Deng’s arrangement produced, members of the Standing Committee seldom opposed one another’s pet initiatives, whether alone or in tandem, because they feared being repaid in kind. One way or another, most of the top leaders behaved in ways that China’s neighbors and the US would regard as assertiveness. This, Shirk writes, is because “muscle flexing is easier to sell than self-restraint in a country that is experiencing double-digit rates of economic growth.”

The geopolitical hallmark of this transformation of China’s domestic politics has been Beijing’s claim to sovereignty over almost the entire South China Sea. As I have written in my own book on this topic, this includes waters that come close to many states in the region, such as the Philippines, which lodged a case against China before an international tribunal and in 2016 won a unanimous ruling, without managing to alter China’s course. That is because nationalism sells in China and bolsters the legitimacy of the leaders, and because so many bureaucracies and their patrons on the Standing Committee, from the People’s Liberation Army Navy to the Agricultural Ministry, stand to gain from steadily enlarging the list of what China calls its “core interests.”

The policy hallmark of the Hu years was a strong reassertion of state control over the economy. Under Hu’s predecessor, Jiang Zemin, China’s private sector grew explosively. One might think this was good news, but it worried many in the leadership who harbored Deng’s old fear that too much capitalism would eventually threaten the CCP’s control. Under Hu, state capitalism boomed as a result of the forced consolidation of innumerable money-losing or low-productivity state-owned businesses, into which the government funneled enormous amounts of capital with the aim of producing national successes and internationally competitive companies. The former has proved easy, given state protection from foreign competitors, but there are still precious few globally preeminent Chinese corporations. Something this shift in economic strategy has produced instead, and a focus of both Shirk’s and Dikötter’s books, is enormous misallocation of public funds and vast corruption, as China props up state-owned companies that lag in innovation and return on investment, while starving the private sector of capital and using all kinds of rules to rein it in.

you know weve done a grave disservice to our foreign policy in regard to china by focusing on a strongman narrative which posits that deng was singlehandedly responsible for every major change in chinese society and this simplistic thinking has likely had disastrous consequences in terms of making it difficult for a whole generation of policymakers to understand how the chinese communist party actually functioned and looking at our current weakened position created in part as a result of these assumptions we really must resolve to never again strawman our enemies into a form that reflects what we want them to look like rather than their true form

Some Guy TT posted:

Shirk writes revealingly about the years leading up to the accession of Xi Jinping, when, as in the past, leaders incarnating the possibility of somewhat different paths for China briefly loomed on the scene. One of these was the populist party secretary of Chongqing municipality, Bo Xilai, a politician of overweening ambition and made-for-Hollywood looks who sought to selectively revive Maoist ideology. He was arrested in 2012 for corruption and abuse of power, after it emerged that his wife was behind the sordid murder of a British business partner.

At the other end of the political spectrum and much less well known was the CCP leader of Guangdong Province, Wang Yang, who campaigned for liberal reforms and urged government transparency and “emancipation of thought.” When Shirk quotes a speech in which he said, “We must eradicate the misconception that people’s happiness is a gift from the party and the government,” one is tempted to hear liberalizing echoes of Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang as they are depicted in Gewirtz’s book.

In the end the party chose Xi, who figuratively buried this era by having Hu Jintao unceremoniously ushered out of a major CCP gathering in October 2022 on live television and by removing Wang and any other members who were not longtime Xi allies from the Standing Committee. Dikötter writes that Xi’s advantage was that unlike people like Bo and Wang, during his rise through the system he had demonstrated the

ability to say or do little of any consequence, thus avoiding closer scrutiny by potential rivals. He rarely took sides, cultivating a neutral persona and a benign smile which revealed nothing. He seemed harmless, and was therefore acceptable to different factions within the party.

Shirk offers a strikingly different view: “Xi Jinping didn’t steal power in a coup; power was willingly bestowed on him by China’s political elite that was fed up with Hu’s corrupt oligarchy.”

Given the near black-box nature of Chinese elite politics, it will be a long time before we fully know which is more accurate, if we ever do. What is already certain, though, is that Xi has completely dismantled the collegial system that Deng labored so hard to create. Even Mao sometimes had to wage strenuous public campaigns against rivals. With surprisingly little fuss, Xi has set himself up to rule for life if he likes and has surrounded himself with yes-men, some of whom have subsequently disappeared from view without any public explanation. Thus is life under the burgeoning cult of personality of Xi, who is on his way to becoming what many Chinese now call the chairman of everything.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

anyway xi destroyed all that previously existing complexity and is currently ruling as a strongman dictator looks like weve got some tough work to do here fighting pure authoritarian evil

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

Weka posted:

Just in case anyone doesn't know, it is literally impossible for America to make a single F-22 as the tooling was destroyed and the blueprints have been lost.

Inner Sphere rear end country

mawarannahr
May 21, 2019

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Now, now, the US does have a major manufacturing base. It just happens to be primarily tooled towards manufacturing anti-depressants and viagra with almost 20% of the entire manufacturing workforce in pharmaceuticals. I'm sure it would only take a few months of retooling before those lines can start pumping out war materiel. Surely?

they're probably not that good at it and I would not be surprised if most Americans are taking drugs manufactured as generics in Asia, as well as American companies outsourcing to factories in Asia.

'Shocking' conditions at Tylenol plant ( 2010)

Employees at plant that ruined millions of J&J Covid vaccine doses failed to shower, change clothes (2021)

Baltimore plant with contaminated Johnson & Johnson vaccines had multiple failures, unsanitary conditions, FDA says (2021)

Drug company quietly shut down COVID-19 vaccine plant last year: report (2022, factory in Netherlands)

Johnson & Johnson set to lay off 57 as it closes Greenfield plant (2023)

mawarannahr has issued a correction as of 04:45 on Jan 21, 2024

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020
They can always rename the V-22 the new F-22 (2024 edition).

mawarannahr
May 21, 2019

lol USA not making poo poo even in brand name
Report details where top 100 brand-name Rx drugs are made

www.cidrap.umn.edu posted:

While a range of consumer goods, from clothing to food, report the country of manufacture on their label, this is not the case for brand-name prescription medications. US drug marketers aren't required to disclose this information—and many don't—leaving patients whose health depends on these drugs in the dark about where their drug was made.

And myriad supply-chain disruptions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic have only exacerbated concerns about how the lack of country-of-manufacture disclosure can affect drug safety, affordability, and availability, as well as national security.

To demystify country of origin for brand-name prescription drugs and their active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs) and to debunk misinformation about the drug supply chain, this month, PharmacyChecker published the report, "Not Made in the USA: The Global Pharmaceutical Supply Chain and Prospects for Safe Drug Importation."

PharmacyChecker was launched in 2003 to guide US patients to the most affordable drugs from licensed pharmacies around the world.

The report's author, PharmacyChecker President Gabriel Levitt, with cowriter Lucia Mueller, vice president of operations and communications, identify country of manufacture and source of APIs for the top 100 brand-name prescription drugs by 2018 Medicare Part D expenditure. An analysis of the source of generic drugs was not included in the report.

### Most brand-name prescription drugs made abroad

The vast majority of brand-name prescription drugs sold in US pharmacies are made overseas and imported by their marketers. Starting about 20 years ago, to bypass the high markups on these drugs, many Americans—particularly those older than 65 years—began importing their prescription drugs at much lower cost over the internet and from Canada and other countries.

PharmacyChecker found that most of the brand-name drugs and APIs in this report are made in other high-income countries with similarly strict standards as those in the United States. Of the 100 brand-name drugs, 32 were finished in the United States, while 67 were finished in countries in the European Union, Canada, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom. Only one brand-name drug, the anticonvulsant Neurontin (gabapentin), was made in India.

"We have found that the vast majority of generic drugs and their API, much like brand drugs, come from foreign sources," said Stephen W. Schondelmeyer, PharmD, PhD, co-principal investigator of the Resilient Drug Supply Project, part of the University of Minnesota's Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, publisher of CIDRAP News.

"About 80% of generic drugs were finished in foreign countries, and an even greater percentage had their API made in foreign countries," he added. "In contrast to brand-name drugs, which are largely made in Europe, generic products and their API are typically made in Asian countries such as India, China, Japan, Singapore, and others."

"Not Made in the USA" also analyzes US drug labeling laws, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA), and US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) definitions of drug country of origin. Take, for example, the anticoagulant drug Eliquis (apixaban), made by Bristol-Myers Squibb and Pfizer. The brand-name prescription drug accounted for the most Medicare spending in 2018, at nearly $5 billion, and is made in the United States, according to the marketer as reported to the FDA. But according to the CBP, it's made in Switzerland.

Of the drugs from the Medicare dataset that are accessible online, "average international mail order prices were 75.53% lower than average US pharmacy prices," the report said. "Average prices available of brand name drugs only shipped from Canadian dispensing pharmacies were 70.18% lower than average US pharmacy retail prices."

Weka
May 5, 2019

That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.
The USA has about 12 million manufacturing jobs, so 20% of that is 2.4 million. Out of 158 million employed people.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1748882488431370706?t=4HkA-ndL-FFyMnXC0oM-rw&s=19

Redezga
Dec 14, 2006

stephenthinkpad posted:

In other China vs US news

nVidia Huang is over in China singing and dancer like he is doing some Chinese New Year Gala special

No it's not AI generated

https://twitter.com/lidongyx/status/1748901846285181279?t=ACYktBrMk4HrYF3FoOJNKw&s=19

E3 may have died, but its spirit never will.

Mandel Brotset
Jan 1, 2024


same but microchips

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/01/bidens-plan-to-dominate-chips-market-may-face-delays-downgrades-at-tsmc-fabs/

quote:

TSMC predicts delays, less advanced chips at second Arizona fab

President Joe Biden's plan to expand America's command of the global chips market hit another setback Thursday when Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) Chairman Mark Liu announced that he anticipates significant delays at the company's second chips plant in Arizona.

This news follows previous delays announced last year at TSMC's first chips plant, which Liu partly blamed on US workers lacking specialized skills. At Thursday's news conference, Liu "reiterated" those complaints, Bloomberg reported, claiming that TSMC is still struggling to hire skilled workers in Arizona.

According to Liu, TSMC's second Arizona plant—which is supposed to become the most advanced facility in the US—likely won't start volume production of advanced chips until 2027 or 2028. That's potentially two years longer than initial projections suggesting that production would start in 2026.

Such lengthy delays, Bloomberg noted, might be "time enough for semiconductor tech to advance by one generation." If that's the case, one of the country's biggest foreign investments ever might result in the US still lagging behind foreign chips competitors.

Liu also suggested that the second plant, even with delays, might not start producing the 3-nanometer chip that TSMC had earlier stated would be possible in 2026. This 3-nm chip is "among the most advanced" chips manufactured today, The Wall Street Journal noted, but Liu said that until TSMC could calculate "customer demand and government incentives," the chipmaker wouldn't be able to determine "the specific chip type" that the second plant would begin producing as late as 2028.

TSMC's delays could be due to a lack of Chips Act funding, Bloomberg suggested, pointing out that none of the leading chip manufacturers ramping up efforts in the US today have been approved for funding yet by the Department of Commerce.

Last month, Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo confirmed that the US had not yet awarded grants to commercial semiconductor facilities like TSMC because selecting a defense contractor first "was meant to emphasize the administration’s focus on national security," The New York Times reported. By funding BAE Systems, the Biden administration was likely moving quickly to decrease reliance on China-based chip supply chains for military purposes amid growing tensions between the two countries.

“When we talk about supply chain resilience, this investment is about shoring up that resilience and ensuring that the chips are delivered when our military needs them,” Jake Sullivan, President Biden’s national security adviser, said last month.

If the US announced funding for TSMC, that could ensure that the second Arizona chips plant would be operational by 2027 rather than 2028. According to Bloomberg, TSMC announced it was building a "more modest plant" in Japan that's on track to launch operations this year after the Japanese government promptly provided funding.

In December, Raimondo promised that "much larger grants for major semiconductor manufacturing facilities run by companies like Intel, Samsung," or TSMC would be announced "in the coming months." She also confirmed that the "pace" of announcing awards would speed up in the first half of 2024.

Liu said that TSMC is in “consistent communication with the US government on incentive and tax credit support” in Arizona, the Journal reported.

TSMC struck deal with union workers

Liu also said that TSMC is "constantly communicating with the local labor union" to cope with the plant's alleged hiring challenges, Bloomberg reported.

Last month, TSMC reached a deal with the Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council (AZBTC), "a coalition of unions with 3,000 members" working on the Arizona plants, Bloomberg reported.

That agreement followed a spike in tensions between TSMC and Arizona union workers who accused TSMC of lying about hiring challenges as an "excuse" to bring in lower-paid Taiwanese workers to take jobs funded by American taxpayers. Workers also cited numerous safety concerns, The Guardian reported, including lack of enforcement of safety protocols, delayed responses from required medical providers, health issues from chemical exposures, and workers "probably" getting sick from using limited portable toilets that "were never properly cleaned or stocked with toilet paper and soap."

At that time, TSMC disputed workplace safety issues were a problem, while AZBCT President Aaron Butler said that TSMC had "not informed us of skills our workers are allegedly lacking or what training these Taiwanese workers will provide to our workers."

Workers speaking anonymously to protect their contracts told The Guardian that, in their opinion, one reason for construction delays was mismanagement at sites. They accused main contractors of constantly shifting the project's priorities, "making it impossible to complete tasks" and adding to delays.

“When you have to put stuff up, tear it down, put it up, tear it down, literally five or six times, that’s going to cost five or six times the original quote, probably more because you have to get demolitions involved,” one worker told The Guardian. “This was constantly the whole process. Everything was rushed. They weren’t giving us actual blueprints, just engineer drawings. It felt like a design-as-we-go type of deal. The information we were getting was really strange, never complete, and always changing. We would get updates constantly and these were big updates to the point where we would have to start pulling things down.”

The deal that TSMC reached with unions required that TSMC meet quarterly with AZBTC representatives, develop a training program for workers, and maintain transparency about worker safety issues. TSMC also agreed to hire local workers, except when "circumstances may require” TSMC to bring in foreign workers with “specialized experience,” Bloomberg reported.

Brian Harrison, president of TSMC Arizona, told Bloomberg that “AZBTC union members have the critical skills necessary to help us complete our two advanced-chipmaking fabs, and we look forward to embarking together on a new chapter of partnership and collaboration.”

Butler called the deal "a win for Arizona workers," telling Bloomberg that the union workers had pushed to ink the agreement before TSMC received Chips Act funding. In an op-ed, Butler also confirmed that his talks with Biden officials and TSMC executives suggested that TSMC's Arizona plants will "especially" "benefit from CHIPS Act funding" during later stages of construction.

Ars could not immediately reach TSMC or AZBTC for comment.

Trimson Grondag 3
Jul 1, 2007

Clapping Larry
hell yeah of course noted chip maker BAE got some funding.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

Trimson Grondag 3 posted:

hell yeah of course noted chip maker BAE got some funding.

they just purchased the old Sanders Associates fab from the 80s and are working on USAF developed chip tech. perfect example of how American’s lingering industry is reliant on public funding and infrastructure that was paid for long long ago.

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Now, now, the US does have a major manufacturing base. It just happens to be primarily tooled towards manufacturing anti-depressants and viagra with almost 20% of the entire manufacturing workforce in pharmaceuticals. I'm sure it would only take a few months of retooling before those lines can start pumping out war materiel. Surely?

I hope people realise this was facetious.

exmarx
Feb 18, 2012


The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)
Could you imagine history if Stalin hadn't recited the Shahada?

eSports Chaebol
Feb 22, 2005

Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

Anime Schoolgirl posted:

__________________________________________syq

it is a point that few acknowledge though that Americas military dominance is like 99% due to geography. the whole proud military tradition bullshit is British. America is far away from everyone and we have all our raw materials at home. that’s it that’s all it is

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

I would go back to 1876 and stop their unequal treaty with Korea, but gently caress me I guess

if youre not going to stop all the other unequal treaties with korea too youre not actually doing anything to help korea

Tankbuster
Oct 1, 2021
didn't russia have a spell of intervening in korea right after the first sino japanese war?

Punkin Spunkin
Jan 1, 2010

Tankbuster posted:

no, korean anarchists murdering japanese statesmen is fun.
:hmmyes:

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

Weka posted:

Just in case anyone doesn't know, it is literally impossible for America to make a single F-22 as the tooling was destroyed and the blueprints have been lost.

it will be easier to design and build an entirely new airplane than to reverse engineer the f22 and recreate the tooling and blueprints.

This is absolutely according to plan.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

Bald Stalin posted:

Just bought a Chinese car. It's incredibly good value with a ridiculous 7 year unlimited mileage warranty covering everything cept tires etc plus 7 years roadside assistance and towing. Just insane value. But the aircon is a touchscreen blech.

Edit: jfc it got zero out of five safety rating because they deliberately left out key safety features in market to make it cheaper....

can you tell me more about this car like how much it cost you and what exactly a key safety feature is like does the car keep my keys safe or something

SuperKlaus
Oct 20, 2005


Fun Shoe

fart simpson posted:

the park nearest to my apartment has every single tree tagged, i dont know if all the parks are that well covered or not. but also most of the trees on the roadside are tagged too. so here's two trees from the street outside my office

the trunk diameter
idk what the next one is referring to and it seems like its always empty




Hm. Is the commonly blank one circumference?

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

SuperKlaus posted:

Hm. Is the commonly blank one circumference?

it's got the diameter so many it's busy computing pi

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genericnick
Dec 26, 2012

SuperKlaus posted:

Hm. Is the commonly blank one circumference?

I think that's diameter at ground level?

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